T-Pain Is On A Boat: [Electric Boats] Re: "Batteries Not Included"

Thanks for your input Roger
Math....? I never thought of that one.
As stated before "There is alot of information available toward what will work and what will not"
I am attempting to find answers to questions that are not readily available.
Electro-chemical energy is fact not fiction, However usable data is not readily available.
Radiant Energy (energy in the atmosphere) is fact not fiction, Several inventors have patented devices for it's collection... Usable data is incomplete.
Ambient Energy (different form of energy in the atmosphere) Similar to radiant energy, patents are also readily available for its collection as well. However usable data is incomplete.
Solar and Wind need not be addressed because no one is questioning them. Data is readily available on both these. How ever in the field searching for real time data will leave us at the mercy of the sun and wind.... Something I am trying to overcome.
The Rotoverter is not a source of energy it is an electric motor rewired from its original manufacturers configuration to optimize energy inefficiency. In this case it is being used to drive a permanent magnet generator through a 12vdc-110vac inverter.
The Deliverance Circuit is a simple circuit designed to extract "excess" energy from the windings of the electric motor. Out of all the energy collecting devices I plan on using, this is the only one that is unfamiliar to me and I have no trouble admitting this one baffles me.
As for the math I already know how many watts it is going to take to run 2 Etek PMM @4800 rpms.
Where is that energy going to come from?
The 72v battery bank.
How long can I run at 4800 watts discharge? These are all simple math problems that I already know the answers to.
When the sun is shining and the wind is blow we have a good idea of the replacement or recharge rates to the battery bank. Thus extending our usable energy supply.
I'm looking for answer that are not readily available.
Let me "Re-state" I am not looking to question the laws of thermo-dynamics.
If you have irrefutable proof that these energy sources do not exist i'll be more than happy to look else where. They are there and I just want to take advantage of them.

Thanks again for your tid bits of wisdom.

James

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L" <rogerlov@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, thanks for asking. Yes, I did view the video. And yes, I counted six sources of energy going into the battery. Not in order, they include: Electro-chemical, radiant and ambient (what are these?), the rotoverter, solar, and wind.
>
> As to what I think..... and since you asked.....I think you are a smart guy who will look back someday and realize that this project represented a crossroads in how you grew to view the world. It's a cusp, and those are valuable. Again..... since you asked, I'd say that to me you seem confused about what science really is - and maybe magic as well. May I ask what kind of education have you had so far?
>
> To be more specific, the absence of math (or physics) in your presentation perplexes me... Why is this? To be taken seriously you must remedy that! Basic competence with these subjects costs nothing and is available to anyone. Like an axe for a woodsman, teaching oneself to use the logic of math and science is the trademark of the thinker. As well as one of the basic tools of imagination.
>
> After spending three years on this project to now, consider spending another year getting a firm grasp of traditional physics and math. Even if you wish to challenge those subjects - which btw is always valid - one needs to know the opponent.
>
> Oh, and your second question - have I ever experienced any of these. Well, sort of....I was a machinist before I became an engineer and I watched and participated as an older gentleman spent his life savings having the machine shop make successive versions of his "resonant energy absorption device" that was similar in philosophy to many similar devices. .....it was basically a set of pivoting magnets and coils passing one another while the whole assembly rotated. As each new device didn't work he remained convinced that he knew what changes were needed to make it right. And each iteration required even more accuracy in the machining.
> As Carter says in his message, simple summation style arithmetic of thermodynamics - not very deep math at all - was against the device ever having a chance.
> Bottom line: A harmless and entertaining diversion.
> Roger L.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: james4078
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 12:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
>
>
> Thanks for your input as well Roger.
> I'm sure you had a chance to view the video, What are your opinions on the 6 forms of energy we plan on using?
> Have you ever experienced or experimented with any of these?
> Thanks again
>
> James
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L" <rogerlov@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, add this old-time traditional engineer to the group who finds the Perpetual Motion Clubsters to be an interesting lot - at least some of the time. Why not? After all, anyone who reads a bit of modern quantum mechanics is already at least half way to never-never land.
> >
> > A new friend who came over to dinner at our place the other night turned out to be a fully fledged member of the PM Club. While he talked, what began to fascinate me was not his opinions as much as a sudden realization that the way he presented his opinions sounded so familiar. In fact, even the cadence of his argument and the posture of his presentation struck me as being surprisingly similar to other perpetual motion/free energy proponents I've heard and read over the years. Is deja vu the same as magic? And why do they believe in PM anyway?
> >
> > Now I wish I'd asked him that very question. Maybe next time.
> > Roger L.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Carter Quillen
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 11:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well this post might not make me any new friends but when it comes to the rotoverter, I'm not ashamed to be the guy "who dares to be stupid enough to say that they are"... SNAKE OIL.
> >
> > I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for exploring the unknown but some things are what some things are so why waste your time chasing unicorns when there are some seriously fat cows that really are out there waiting to be slaughtered. Maybe the better question should be: Do you believe in magic?
> > I do not.
> >
> > I don't believe we get to break the laws of thermodynamic in this plane of existence and I'm not ashamed to say it. You can game them six ways to Sunday, but you don't get to flat out break them and that's what the rotoverter claims to do.
> >
> > Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about: Paraphasing the second law of thermodynamics, "Energy flows from hot to cold and the rate at which it travels is proportional to the difference in temperature." On the surface, the ordinary refrigerator appears to break this law by removing heat from the freezer which is cold and making it flow into the room, which is hot, exactly opposite of the 2nd law. Although this seems to contradict the second law of thermodynamics, it really doesn't and I won't bore everyone with an explanation of the how and why but my point is that this system only "appears" to break the laws of nature, it actually doesn't.
> >
> > The rotoverter, as advertized on the internet, is a perpetual motion machine, modern day snake oil at it's best but, like unicorns, it doesn't exist. Maybe if you built one with superconductive windings and flooded it in liquid nitrogen, then configured it to somehow be harmonic or resonant with the natural frequency of the universe to absorb cosmic radiation, who knows,maybe you could capture some mystery energy from somewhere but the energy has to come from somewhere, you don't get to "create" it. And that's not just my opinion, it is supported by hundreds of years of empirical data. There are many unsolved mysteries in this world but the "rotoverter" is not one of them. From everything I know about it, which admittedly is somewhat limited, it is just a brilliant and lucrative gimmick. I would welcome anyone to actually prove me wrong on that though.
> >
> > I am certainly NOT someone "who is arrogant enough to state that they know all energies and their manifestations that our universe has to offer", but I'm pretty confident I know snake oil when I see it.
> >
> > Rather than wasting his time on the rotoverter, I would challenge James to work on figuring out a way to make a solar collector that is 50% efficient instead of 14%. That innovation would make the typical solar canopy put out 3 times more energy and at 50% eff. it doesn't even come close to violating any physical laws of nature.
> >
> > Or perhaps cobble together a simple and innovative electric drive system that can be easily and cost effectively adapted to some of these old boats that are just sitting around wasting away. That transom extension he came up with looks like a good start on that idea.
> >
> > These type of things are doable. "Creating" energy is not.
> >
> > As I've said before, I think he's on to something with his idea of retrofitting old boats with alterative energy drives systems. But I also believe he has a better chance for success if he forgets about trying to use a unicorn... errr "rotoverter" in his designs.
> >
> >
> > Carter Quillen, P.E.
> > http://www.shipofimagination.com/
> >
> >
> > From: Julian Webb <julian.proto@>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Willie
> >
> >
> > - I'm not meaning to be rude with this next sentence, but if you "try" something and do it incorrectly it doesn't mean the theory is not right, it means you're not, and worse you're going o become a wonderful validator for the "I told you so" brigade.
> >
> >
> > - If you tried to make something as simple as a blender without the correct plans or help how successful do you think it would be? That should not mean the concept of a blender was wrong or that we should stick to knives.
> >
> >
> > - As I said, although I haven't tried the Roto-Verter, I know simply hooking a motor to a generator and hoping one will run the other is not the way that you're supposed to do it, so no surprises that it didn't work for you.
> > - I'm not saying it does work, just from the very little I've heard there's a bit more to it than that.
> >
> >
> > - Electrolysis is something I got involved in, as a friend of mine, tried it, same results as you, asked for help, got laughed at and lectured and had laws quoted at him to prove it is impossible to get more gas energy out than electrical energy in (to keep it simple) and by those laws it didn't work.
> > - Because I had an R&D company and did product development and had meters, scopes etc and was used to setting up a logical test program he asked me to have a look and see if there was anything he had done that was obviously wrong. There wasn't, not by the basic splitting of water stuff I (and all of us) had been taught in high school.
> > - I read the blurb that he had bought on line and it mentioned something that pinged my imagination, and something that as he had no experience in such things, did not consider to be important.
> >
> >
> > - With the experience I had had in pump systems, I had seen mechanical resonance at it's best and worst and fully appreciated that a small amount of energy input can produce a disproportionate amount of energy appearing in a system if the parameters are right, and I don't mean by simple hydraulic multiplication.
> >
> >
> > - I have also built an induction heater and have pondered the ability (of a close coupled coil to load system) to achieve roughly 5 times the heating effect of a resistive electrical heating system drawing the same current. Of course, this too is "not possible" and yet anyone can buy or make one and if built and operated properly can get the same results.
> > - These of course use an electrically resonant circuit.
> >
> >
> > - To cut a long story short unless the importance of electrical and mechanical resonance in systems is appreciated, (which has no place, constant or symbol in any traditional calculations or formulas that I have ever seen) they cannot be understood or replicated.
> >
> >
> > - Once we made (after a lot more reading) a system that paid attention to those details we trebled the gas output which was over the theoretical using "normal" calculations, and as I understand it there are ways (untried by me) of preparing the metal tubes that increases output even further.
> >
> >
> > - Just because a few snake oil salesmen jumped on bandwagons and sold devices that didn't live up to their over-the-top claims doesn't mean that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> >
> >
> > - Just because Mythbusters buys a shonky DIY kit/plans and also make it improperly without understanding what they're doing also doesn't mean that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> >
> >
> > - If we don't understand what we're doing we need someone around who can steer us in the right direction, help or teach us, but if that topic is slightly outside mainstream you'll get nothing positive, and surely anyone who is inquisitive and curious enough to want to try something should be encouraged, as who knows what they might come up with.
> >
> >
> > - So much has been discovered, even in out time, by people doing what they shouldn't, usually in desperation as all the things they should have done had produced nothing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23 May 2013 01:03, stmbtwle <stmbtwle@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > James when I was a teenager I built a "rotoverter" out of a couple 3v electric motors. I coupled the shafts together so one motor would spin the other as a generator (DC motors can be used as generators) then I wired them together so the generator output would drive the motor, which would spin the generator, which would drive the motor, which would spin the generator, and so on. Then I ran it up to speed with a couple dry cells to get it started, and removed the batteries. It kept running.... for a few seconds. Electrical resistance, heat and friction killed it. I tried the electrolysis thing too, with a piece of aluminum and a piece of copper in sea water; that worked just about as well. Nikolai Tesla (a whole lot smarter than I am) tried the "radiant energy" thing. From what I understand it had promise but you have to have a transmitter (which requires fuel) and the whole thing is horribly inefficient. To be honest I think you'd have better luck with Magick.
> >
> > There IS a "radiant energy" system that DOES work and it's well proven; I have three; one actually drives one of my boats. Another keeps the lights on and the beer cold on my houseboat. Some people call it "solar", but you could also call it "fusion". The gods provide the radiant energy, you just collect it all week and store it in a battery, to be used when you want to play.
> >
> > My suggestion: Find an old aluminum pontoon boat (they're big, light, and don't require much power). Strip it down and build a rack overhead that will hold as many solar panels as you can fit within the dimensions of the boat. Install enough batteries to run your motor for a reasonable time, hook the panels up and park it in the sun for a week. By Saturday you'll have your "radiant energy boat". Some paint and foo-foo and you'll have a nifty rig that actually WORKS. Mine does; it's just a canoe with a trolling motor, but I haven't had to paddle or charge the batteries since I installed my "energy collector". I just park it in the sun, and it's ready to go when I am.
> >
> > Even the Wright Brothers did things one step at a time, and they were ultimately successful.
> >
> > Willie
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078" <james4078@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for your input guys
> > > If history teaches us anything it is truly that there is an answer to any and all questions, no matter how difficult they may be.
> > > Perpetual motion is not something I'm looking to do.
> > > I'm just trying to harness the energy that is there and funnel it to be usable for my situation.
> > >
> >
> > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have to agree with your contention to round file the perpetual motion stuff but you can push a boat at pretty close to hull speed realtime off the sun with a full solar canopy. Despite a looong list of inefficiencies such as a shunt motor, lead acid batteries, spinning a big diesel driveline including a V-drive, and a 20 ton displacement, the Arc still works pretty good. Better than I thought it would actually.
> > > >
> > > > With lighter hulls, better motors, and elimination of the extra driveline components you have in a parallel hybrid configuration, solar powered boats can perform very well. This has been demostrated by a lot of other solar boats besides the Arc too.
> > > >
> > > > While James may be a bit sidetracked on a unicorn hunt, his basic idea of retrofitting old broken boats with alternative energy drive systems is sound. It does work and the idea of a never ending gas tank is very appealing. The techology only keeps getting better and I think you will be seeing a lot more solar electric boats on the water in the future.
> > > >
> > > > Carter
> > > > http://www.shipofimagination.blogspot.com/
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: stmbtwle <stmbtwle@>
> >
> > > > To: mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:28 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry James but I have to agree with Julian. Have you done the math? If you want to charge your batteries by plugging into shore power you may have a nice electric boat, but you won't be able to fit enough solar panels or a big enough windmill to provide the power you need. "Rotoverter", "Ambient energy", "Radiant energy", "Electrolytic energy" all go in the same file with "Perpetual Motion".
> > > >
> > > > Folks don't like to think about it, but there's a REASON our electric utilities haven't already switched over to those devices.
> > > >
> > > > Willie
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078" <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the words of wisdom.
> > > > > I have a few emails that I would rather soon forget but that comes with the territory.
> > > > > I was kind of hoping to get a better reaction from this group than some of the others.
> > > > > With 3845 members you would think that most would like to get some new information on a project such as this.
> > > > > Well I will be glad to hear from you and as always do what you can when you can.
> > > > > Thanks for the help
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Julian Webb <julian.proto@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > hi james
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - just had a read of your crowd funding page, and my first piece of advice
> > > > > > is to be very careful of your wording there, here and everywhere.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - i'm not sure what your actual energy source/plan/generating/harnessing
> > > > > > ideas are but unless you want to be written off, ridiculed, abused or at
> > > > > > best condescendingly lectured to, don't ever use the word "energy" in the
> > > > > > same sentence with other words such as "alternative", "unlimited" or heaven
> > > > > > forbid "free".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - irrespective of what you meant, it will be assumed you that you have
> > > > > > either never heard of newton or maxwell or you just didn't get it, and you
> > > > > > will incur the wrath of educated non-thinkers who are so eager to show what
> > > > > > they learned at school that they won't wait to ask you the how or what of
> > > > > > what you meant or are doing but will trip over themselves at the
> > > > > > opportunity make themselves sound smart by making you sound stupid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - open minded, unbiased, ego free help with anything "a bit different" is
> > > > > > hard to find and if i can be of any help please email me on
> > > > > > everhopeful@ and if i can't i'll try to point you somewhere that
> > > > > > can.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 19 May 2013 03:53, james4078 <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greetings from Florida everyone.
> > > > > > > I've been a member of this group for some time now and I try to help out
> > > > > > > when I can.
> > > > > > > Now I am asking for all your help.
> > > > > > > As there is not much technical data available for us electric boaters I am
> > > > > > > assembling a project that will provide much needed data.
> > > > > > > I have been working alone on this for close to 3 years and now I want to
> > > > > > > get it finished and create a data bank of some sort for all electric boater
> > > > > > > out there.
> > > > > > > Here is a link to our crowd funding project, once done all data will be
> > > > > > > readily available "open source"
> > > > > > > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alternative-energy-source--2/x/3222114
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I will also be looking for some technical expertise for those that want to
> > > > > > > offer that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks again
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > James
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > project #2
> > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/547817076/pic/list
> > > > > > > project #1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1200862879/pic/list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It has been too long between projects
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax;
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> > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> >
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> > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 - Fax; (+44) 0871 9898296
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