If that's correct, James is in luck. All he has to do is duplicate Tom's 126' diploe antenna, 80' off the ground, from his now highly efficient hull, and away he goes.
As simple as that he is capturing .024 watts of energy.
To quote Tom, "Go for it".
I've come up with some more interesting numbers but my tongue is stuck in my cheek and I can't type while trying get it out. I tried using floss but nearly electrocuted myself.
ric SV Meander
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Bull <steve.bull@...> wrote:
>
> Many years ago I performed similar experiment on a dipole measuring the
> voltage levels between ground and the center lead from the coax antennae
> feed.
>
> Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity and the
> 3rd paragraph states, "In 'fine weather', the
> potential<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_potential>,
> aka 'voltage', increases with
> altitude<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude>at about 30
> volts <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt> per foot (100 V/m), when climbing
> against the gradient of the electric
> field.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity#cite_note-Encyclopedia1918-3>"
>
>
> [3] ^ *a*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity#cite_ref-Encyclopedia1918_3-0>
> *b*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity#cite_ref-Encyclopedia1918_3-1>
> *c*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity#cite_ref-Encyclopedia1918_3-2>
> *d*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity#cite_ref-Encyclopedia1918_3-3>
> The
> Encyclopedia Americana; A library of universal knowledge. (1918). New York:
> Encyclopedia Americana Corp. Page 181.
>
> I know, I know, wikipedia is not gospel but confirms some of the obvious.
> For example, when I view St. Elmo's fire or sense an approaching thunder
> squall I believe that is a good time to loop a length of chain from the
> base of the mast and around the stays overboard into the sea alongside the
> hull.
>
> This discussion sparks my enthusiasm to explore the matter further.
>
> - Steve
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Tom <boat_works@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> >
> > At the risk of continuing to beat an already thoroughly dead horse...
> >
> > Here's a data point that might be valuable info regarding "ambient
> > energy", or maybe "radiant energy", I'm not sure which you'll call it.
> >
> > I had a dipole antenna 126' long, 80' high,fed with open-wire feed line,
> > suspended adjacent to a salt-water tideland for a ground. This was an
> > optimal installation, you'd be hard pressed to do better with a land-based
> > installation, let alone on a boat.
> >
> > I built several simple receivers to capture signals in the AM band from
> > major stations about 40 miles away. The maximum current I measured was 100
> > microamps (.0001A)at the detector output.
> > don't recall the voltage,but even if it was 10V (which it certainly
> > wasn't) the "free power" would have been .001 Watt.
> >
> > Let's assume your project is an astonishing improvement compared to my
> > efforts, and yours was 1000x more efficient, and your ground was at least
> > as good as mine, you'd get one free Watt.
> >
> > Go for it!
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "james4078" <james407th8@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Got your message the first time you said it.
> > > Thanks
> > > James
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > James, James, James,
> > > >
> > > > I admire your passion for what you're trying to do but you are
> > speeding down a blind alley and will eventually hit the brick wall at the
> > end. I'm a little disappointed it's taking you so long to get there but I
> > hope you do soon for your own benefit. I just hate to see you wasting so
> > much of your enthusiasm and talent on the endeavor. This has been a
> > stimulating thread but this will be my last comment on the subject of your
> > rotoverter. My last ditch effort to try to help you see the light, although
> > I suspect it will be a futile effort and you'll just have to figure it out
> > in your own time. But please read the following carefully and THINK about
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > The second law of thermodynamics, in all it permutations, basically
> > states you can never get more out of a system than you put into it. If you
> > did, you'd be violating the first law of thermodynamics by creating energy.
> > Your rotoverter, in order to give you "usable" energy, would have to put
> > out more energy than you put into it. That can't be done, even if you do
> > believe in magic. There is no such thing as an "over-unity generator"
> > because it violates the second law of thermodynamics.
> > > >
> > > > So step back, consider the BIG picture while looking at your schematic
> > for the rotoverter and think about what I just said. Hopefully the light
> > will come on sooner rather than later for your own sake.
> > > >
> > > > Carter
> > > >
> > > > From: james4078 <james4078@>
> > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:11 AM
> > > > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: "Batteries Not Included"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Again Carter thanks for your input.
> > > > From what I am reading here you are still under the impression that I
> > am trying to "CREATE" energy. I am not. You are not alone in your beliefs
> > and that is fine.
> > > > I am collecting and transferring energy to suit my needs not creating
> > energy.
> > > > And NO it is not a perpetual motion machine.... Not sure how many time
> > I need to keep saying this.
> > > > This is a research project. If there is something you want to
> > know...just ask.
> > > >
> > > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Well this post might not make me any new friends but when it comes
> > to the rotoverter, I'm not ashamed to be the guy "who dares to be stupid
> > enough to say that they are"... SNAKE OIL.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for exploring the unknown
> > but some things are what some things are so why waste your time chasing
> > unicorns when there are some seriously fat cows that really are out there
> > waiting to be slaughtered. Maybe the better question should be: Do you
> > believe in magic?
> > > > > I do not.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't believe we get to break the laws of thermodynamic in this
> > plane of existence and I'm not ashamed to say it. You can game them six
> > ways to Sunday, but you don't get to flat out break them and that's what
> > the rotoverter claims to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about: Paraphasing the
> > second law of thermodynamics, "Energy flows from hot to cold and the rate
> > at which it travels is proportional to the difference in temperature." On
> > the surface, the ordinary refrigerator appears to break this law by
> > removing heat from the freezer which is cold and making it flow into the
> > room, which is hot, exactly opposite of the 2nd law. Although this seems
> > to contradict the second law of thermodynamics, it really doesn't and I
> > won't bore everyone with an explanation of the how and why but my point is
> > that this system only "appears" to break the laws of nature, it actually
> > doesn't.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rotoverter, as advertized on the internet, is a perpetual motion
> > machine, modern day snake oil at it's best but, like unicorns, it doesn't
> > exist. Maybe if you built one with superconductive windings and flooded
> > it in liquid nitrogen, then configured it to somehow be harmonic or
> > resonant with the natural frequency of the universe to absorb cosmic
> > radiation, who knows,maybe you could capture some mystery energy from
> > somewhere but the energy has to come from somewhere, you don't get to
> > "create" it. And that's not just my opinion, it is supported by hundreds of
> > years of empirical data. There are many unsolved mysteries in this world
> > but the "rotoverter" is not one of them. From everything I know about it,
> > which admittedly is somewhat limited, it is just a brilliant and lucrative
> > gimmick. I would welcome anyone to actually prove me wrong on that though.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am certainly NOT someone "who is arrogant enough to state that
> > they know all energies and their manifestations that our universe has to
> > offer", but I'm pretty confident I know snake oil when I see it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather than wasting his time on the rotoverter, I would challenge
> > James to work on figuring out a way to make a solar collector that is 50%
> > efficient instead of 14%. That innovation would make the typical solar
> > canopy put out 3 times more energy and at 50% eff. it doesn't even come
> > close to violating any physical laws of nature.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or perhaps cobble together a simple and innovative electric drive
> > system that can be easily and cost effectively adapted to some of these old
> > boats that are just sitting around wasting away. That transom extension
> > he came up with looks like a good start on that idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > These type of things are doable. "Creating" energy is not.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I've said before, I think he's on to something with his idea of
> > retrofitting old boats with alterative energy drives systems. But I also
> > believe he has a better chance for success if he forgets about trying to
> > use a unicorn... errr "rotoverter" in his designs.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Carter Quillen, P.E.
> > > > > http://www.shipofimagination.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Julian Webb <julian.proto@>
> > > > > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:11 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Willie
> > > > >
> > > > > - I'm not meaning to be rude with this next sentence, but if you
> > "try" something and do it incorrectly it doesn't mean the theory is not
> > right, it means you're not, and worse you're going o become a wonderful
> > validator for the "I told you so" brigade.
> > > > >
> > > > > - If you tried to make something as simple as a blender without the
> > correct plans or help how successful do you think it would be? That should
> > not mean the concept of a blender was wrong or that we should stick to
> > knives.
> > > > >
> > > > > - As I said, although I haven't tried the Roto-Verter, I know simply
> > hooking a motor to a generator and hoping one will run the other is not the
> > way that you're supposed to do it, so no surprises that it didn't work for
> > you.
> > > > > - I'm not saying it does work, just from the very little I've heard
> > there's a bit more to it than that.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Electrolysis is something I got involved in, as a friend of mine,
> > tried it, same results as you, asked for help, got laughed at and lectured
> > and had laws quoted at him to prove it is impossible to get more gas energy
> > out than electrical energy in (to keep it simple) and by those laws it
> > didn't work.
> > > > > - Because I had an R&D company and did product development and had
> > meters, scopes etc and was used to setting up a logical test program he
> > asked me to have a look and see if there was anything he had done that was
> > obviously wrong. There wasn't, not by the basic splitting of water stuff I
> > (and all of us) had been taught in high school.
> > > > > - I read the blurb that he had bought on line and it mentioned
> > something that pinged my imagination, and something that as he had no
> > experience in such things, did not consider to be important.
> > > > >
> > > > > - With the experience I had had in pump systems, I had seen
> > mechanical resonance at it's best and worst and fully appreciated that a
> > small amount of energy input can produce a disproportionate amount of
> > energy appearing in a system if the parameters are right, and I don't mean
> > by simple hydraulic multiplication.
> > > > >
> > > > > - I have also built an induction heater and have pondered the
> > ability (of a close coupled coil to load system) to achieve roughly 5 times
> > the heating effect of a resistive electrical heating system drawing the
> > same current. Of course, this too is "not possible" and yet anyone can buy
> > or make one and if built and operated properly can get the same results.
> > > > > - These of course use an electrically resonant circuit.
> > > > >
> > > > > - To cut a long story short unless the importance of electrical and
> > mechanical resonance in systems is appreciated, (which has no place,
> > constant or symbol in any traditional calculations or formulas that I have
> > ever seen) they cannot be understood or replicated.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Once we made (after a lot more reading) a system that paid
> > attention to those details we trebled the gas output which was over the
> > theoretical using "normal" calculations, and as I understand it there are
> > ways (untried by me) of preparing the metal tubes that increases output
> > even further.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Just because a few snake oil salesmen jumped on bandwagons and
> > sold devices that didn't live up to their over-the-top claims doesn't mean
> > that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Just because Mythbusters buys a shonky DIY kit/plans and also make
> > it improperly without understanding what they're doing also doesn't mean
> > that the whole idea is wrong, just that they are.
> > > > >
> > > > > - If we don't understand what we're doing we need someone around who
> > can steer us in the right direction, help or teach us, but if that topic is
> > slightly outside mainstream you'll get nothing positive, and surely anyone
> > who is inquisitive and curious enough to want to try something should be
> > encouraged, as who knows what they might come up with.
> > > > >
> > > > > - So much has been discovered, even in out time, by people doing
> > what they shouldn't, usually in desperation as all the things they should
> > have done had produced nothing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 23 May 2013 01:03, stmbtwle <stmbtwle@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >James when I was a teenager I built a "rotoverter" out of a couple
> > 3v electric motors. I coupled the shafts together so one motor would spin
> > the other as a generator (DC motors can be used as generators) then I wired
> > them together so the generator output would drive the motor, which would
> > spin the generator, which would drive the motor, which would spin the
> > generator, and so on. Then I ran it up to speed with a couple dry cells to
> > get it started, and removed the batteries. It kept running.... for a few
> > seconds. Electrical resistance, heat and friction killed it. I tried the
> > electrolysis thing too, with a piece of aluminum and a piece of copper in
> > sea water; that worked just about as well. Nikolai Tesla (a whole lot
> > smarter than I am) tried the "radiant energy" thing. From what I understand
> > it had promise but you have to have a transmitter (which requires fuel) and
> > the whole thing is horribly inefficient. To be honest I think you'd have
> > better luck with
> > > > > Magick.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >There IS a "radiant energy" system that DOES work and it's well
> > proven; I have three; one actually drives one of my boats. Another keeps
> > the lights on and the beer cold on my houseboat. Some people call it
> > "solar", but you could also call it "fusion". The gods provide the radiant
> > energy, you just collect it all week and store it in a battery, to be used
> > when you want to play.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >My suggestion: Find an old aluminum pontoon boat (they're big,
> > light, and don't require much power). Strip it down and build a rack
> > overhead that will hold as many solar panels as you can fit within the
> > dimensions of the boat. Install enough batteries to run your motor for a
> > reasonable time, hook the panels up and park it in the sun for a week. By
> > Saturday you'll have your "radiant energy boat". Some paint and foo-foo and
> > you'll have a nifty rig that actually WORKS. Mine does; it's just a canoe
> > with a trolling motor, but I haven't had to paddle or charge the batteries
> > since I installed my "energy collector". I just park it in the sun, and
> > it's ready to go when I am.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Even the Wright Brothers did things one step at a time, and they
> > were ultimately successful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Willie
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078"
> > <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks for your input guys
> > > > > >> If history teaches us anything it is truly that there is an
> > answer to any and all questions, no matter how difficult they may be.
> > > > > >> Perpetual motion is not something I'm looking to do.
> > > > > >> I'm just trying to harness the energy that is there and funnel it
> > to be usable for my situation.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Carter Quillen
> > <twowheelinguy@> wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I have to agree with your contention to round file the
> > perpetual motion stuff but you can push a boat at pretty close to hull
> > speed realtime off the sun with a full solar canopy. Despite a looong list
> > of inefficiencies such as a shunt motor, lead acid batteries, spinning a
> > big diesel driveline including a V-drive, and a 20 ton displacement, the
> > Arc still works pretty good. Better than I thought it would actually.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > With lighter hulls, better motors, and elimination of the extra
> > driveline components you have in a parallel hybrid configuration, solar
> > powered boats can perform very well. This has been demostrated by a lot of
> > other solar boats besides the Arc too.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > While James may be a bit sidetracked on a unicorn hunt, his
> > basic idea of retrofitting old broken boats with alternative energy drive
> > systems is sound. It does work and the idea of a never ending gas tank is
> > very appealing. The techology only keeps getting better and I think you
> > will be seeing a lot more solar electric boats on the water in the future.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Carter
> > > > > >> > http://www.shipofimagination.blogspot.com/
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > ________________________________
> > > > > >> > From: stmbtwle <stmbtwle@>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > To: mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:28 AM
> > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] "Batteries Not Included"
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Sorry James but I have to agree with Julian. Have you done the
> > math? If you want to charge your batteries by plugging into shore power
> > you may have a nice electric boat, but you won't be able to fit enough
> > solar panels or a big enough windmill to provide the power you need.
> > "Rotoverter", "Ambient energy", "Radiant energy", "Electrolytic energy" all
> > go in the same file with "Perpetual Motion".
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Folks don't like to think about it, but there's a REASON our
> > electric utilities haven't already switched over to those devices.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Willie
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, "james4078"
> > <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Thanks for the words of wisdom.
> > > > > >> > > I have a few emails that I would rather soon forget but that
> > comes with the territory.
> > > > > >> > > I was kind of hoping to get a better reaction from this group
> > than some of the others.
> > > > > >> > > With 3845 members you would think that most would like to get
> > some new information on a project such as this.
> > > > > >> > > Well I will be glad to hear from you and as always do what
> > you can when you can.
> > > > > >> > > Thanks for the help
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > James
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > --- In mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com, Julian Webb
> > <julian.proto@> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > hi james
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > - just had a read of your crowd funding page, and my first
> > piece of advice
> > > > > >> > > > is to be very careful of your wording there, here and
> > everywhere.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > - i'm not sure what your actual energy
> > source/plan/generating/harnessing
> > > > > >> > > > ideas are but unless you want to be written off, ridiculed,
> > abused or at
> > > > > >> > > > best condescendingly lectured to, don't ever use the word
> > "energy" in the
> > > > > >> > > > same sentence with other words such as "alternative",
> > "unlimited" or heaven
> > > > > >> > > > forbid "free".
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > - irrespective of what you meant, it will be assumed you
> > that you have
> > > > > >> > > > either never heard of newton or maxwell or you just didn't
> > get it, and you
> > > > > >> > > > will incur the wrath of educated non-thinkers who are so
> > eager to show what
> > > > > >> > > > they learned at school that they won't wait to ask you the
> > how or what of
> > > > > >> > > > what you meant or are doing but will trip over themselves
> > at the
> > > > > >> > > > opportunity make themselves sound smart by making you sound
> > stupid.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > - open minded, unbiased, ego free help with anything "a bit
> > different" is
> > > > > >> > > > hard to find and if i can be of any help please email me on
> > > > > >> > > > everhopeful@ and if i can't i'll try to point you
> > somewhere that
> > > > > >> > > > can.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > cheers
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > On 19 May 2013 03:53, james4078 <james4078@> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > **
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Greetings from Florida everyone.
> > > > > >> > > > > I've been a member of this group for some time now and I
> > try to help out
> > > > > >> > > > > when I can.
> > > > > >> > > > > Now I am asking for all your help.
> > > > > >> > > > > As there is not much technical data available for us
> > electric boaters I am
> > > > > >> > > > > assembling a project that will provide much needed data.
> > > > > >> > > > > I have been working alone on this for close to 3 years
> > and now I want to
> > > > > >> > > > > get it finished and create a data bank of some sort for
> > all electric boater
> > > > > >> > > > > out there.
> > > > > >> > > > > Here is a link to our crowd funding project, once done
> > all data will be
> > > > > >> > > > > readily available "open source"
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/alternative-energy-source--2/x/3222114
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > I will also be looking for some technical expertise for
> > those that want to
> > > > > >> > > > > offer that.
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Thanks again
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > James
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > project #2
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/547817076/pic/list
> > > > > >> > > > > project #1
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1200862879/pic/list
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > It has been too long between projects
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ltd
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > > >> > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696
> > 796 - Fax;
> > > > > >> > > > (+44) 0871 9898296
> > > > > >> > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.proto.eu.com/ ltd
> > > > >
> > > > > unit 9 Somerton Industrial Estate, Belfast, BT3 9JP, U.K.
> > > > > Phone; (+44) 02895 811251 - Mobile; (+44) 07427 696 796 -
> > Fax; (+44) 0871 9898296
> > > > > Company number; NI067673 VAT number; GB975375474
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
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