T-Pain Is On A Boat: August 2022

Tuesday, August 30, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Batteries?

I went with 3 Dakota Lithium 48V/96 Ah batteries, they're probably one of the most expensive options but I have been very happy with them. I didn't go the "roll your own" route since I didn't have time (the engine installation and wiring took all my time over the winter).

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Re: [electricboats] Batteries?

I replaced 20 group 31 AGMs with 16 1,000 AH Winston cells. CALB and Sinopoly also make good cells. I have no experience with drop-Ins.

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Re: [electricboats] Batteries?

Ohmmu makes this one:

https://www.ohmmu.com/product-page/gen3group31

I have an older revision in a UPS and it's working fine. I also have their Model 3 batter in my Leaf. Also fine.

Then there's Battle Born Batteries. But they top out at 100Ah. But that's still more usable energy than an AGM Group 31.

To go 'economy', SOK Batteries get high marks on Will Prowse's list of good brands (best value):

https://www.amazon.com/SOK-LiFePO4-Battery-Plastic-SK12V206P/dp/B0B94PBKS6/

Second on his list is Ampere Time:

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Battery-Battery%EF%BC%8CBuilt-Emergency-Off-Grid/dp/B0B3WW4NYB/ref=sr_1_2_sspa

Here's his full list:

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html

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Re: [electricboats] Batteries?

I've been keeping these on the backburner for when the right time comes:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08S761G9N/?coliid=I2Y3N0TOX3KF04&colid=39QFM6K8WSYNY&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B092326XK8/?coliid=I16FMDVTYLNFQA&colid=39QFM6K8WSYNY&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08N53GF81/?coliid=IL5SIEY4OBZDN&colid=39QFM6K8WSYNY&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
If I lived in a colder climate, I would probably avoid them because they don't have any freeze protection.

On 8/30/2022 8:54 AM, Retreat Time via groups.io wrote:

Hello all, Kicking around replacing my 32 "group 31" AGM's aboard Retreat Time and would appreciate some input. So many choices! Does anyone have a top three list?

[electricboats] Batteries?

Hello all, Kicking around replacing my 32 "group 31" AGM's aboard Retreat Time and would appreciate some input. So many choices! Does anyone have a top three list?

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Tuesday, August 16, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Yes thanks for adding that - good advice - I also bought two to keep one as a spare.

And the lightning strike is a strong possibility for my failure - hadn't thought of that.

Cheers

Stewart

On 15 Aug 2022, at 19:08, Gennaro Fazio <gfazio@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

We had two encoders (ME1115 on two separate boats) fail after a close lightning strike last year at our yacht club. It was a bit of a hassle sourcing and replacing them, but did not have to mess around with the software.
I think it is a good idea to have a spare encoder around. The encoders detect very small changes in magnetism and translate them into a sinusoidal wave. The sensitivity to magnetism makes them susceptible to EMPs associated with lightning.

-------- Original message --------
From: Free <stewart.reed@free.fr>
Date: 8/15/22 12:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Hi John,
Yes I had a faulty encoder on same motor and replaced it a month or so ago. Replacement itself is very easy - remove cover plate, unscrew 4 hex screws and unplug at board. Installation the reverse procedure. Pictures attached.
More complicated is that it then has to be reconfigured using the DVT software for the controller - fairly complicated - Thierry Lequeu at kit-elec-shop.com in France did it for me via a remote screenshare connection.

Hope that helps.

(Original failed when I returned to the boat after the winter and the motor did not work - it rotated about 10 degrees each time the throttle was applied and a humming came from the SEVCON unit. Thunderstruck were unable to diagnose but Thierry Lequeu at kit-elec-shop.com in France solved it for me - highly recommend him for SEVCON or motor issues for anyone in France)

With some remote assistance on Sevcon parameter adjustment the motor has more power then before - pushes a 9 tonne Gin Fizz to 6-7 knots - very happy with it.

Good luck, Stewart

On 15 Aug 2022, at 16:35, john winterrowd via groups.io <sailorboy55577=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Installed both ME1616 liquid cooled systems and have Curtis code - throttle disabled because encoder sensor is not detected. Does anyone have experience replacing or repairing this part? If so, please share.

Thanks
John

Monday, August 15, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Unfortunately I don't know - the french guy adjusted some parameters on the SEVCON unit using the DVT software. I'm still testing so the parameters are not yet final. I think it's also boat setup specific eg pulley ratio, prop size etc.

Stewart

+33 6 87 96 66 80

On 15 Aug 2022, at 21:25, john winterrowd via groups.io <sailorboy55577=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Thanks for the reply Stewart, spot on!! What did Sevcon adjust to increase motor performance?

Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Thanks for the reply Stewart, spot on!! What did Sevcon adjust to increase motor performance?

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Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

We had two encoders (ME1115 on two separate boats) fail after a close lightning strike last year at our yacht club. It was a bit of a hassle sourcing and replacing them, but did not have to mess around with the software.

I think it is a good idea to have a spare encoder around. The encoders detect very small changes in magnetism and translate them into a sinusoidal wave. The sensitivity to magnetism makes them susceptible to EMPs associated with lightning.

-------- Original message --------

From: Free <stewart.reed@free.fr>

Date: 8/15/22 12:47 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: electricboats@groups.io

Subject: Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Hi John,

Yes I had a faulty encoder on same motor and replaced it a month or so ago. Replacement itself is very easy - remove cover plate, unscrew 4 hex screws and unplug at board. Installation the reverse procedure. Pictures attached.

More complicated is that it then has to be reconfigured using the DVT software for the controller - fairly complicated - Thierry Lequeu at kit-elec-shop.com in France did it for me via a remote screenshare connection.

Hope that helps.

(Original failed when I returned to the boat after the winter and the motor did not work - it rotated about 10 degrees each time the throttle was applied and a humming came from the SEVCON unit. Thunderstruck were unable to diagnose but Thierry Lequeu at kit-elec-shop.com in France solved it for me - highly recommend him for SEVCON or motor issues for anyone in France)

With some remote assistance on Sevcon parameter adjustment the motor has more power then before - pushes a 9 tonne Gin Fizz to 6-7 knots - very happy with it.

Good luck, Stewart

On 15 Aug 2022, at 16:35, john winterrowd via groups.io <sailorboy55577=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Installed both ME1616 liquid cooled systems and have Curtis code - throttle disabled because encoder sensor is not detected. Does anyone have experience replacing or repairing this part? If so, please share.

Thanks
John

Re: [electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Hi John,

Hope that helps.

With some remote assistance on Sevcon parameter adjustment the motor has more power then before - pushes a 9 tonne Gin Fizz to 6-7 knots - very happy with it.

Good luck, Stewart

On 15 Aug 2022, at 16:35, john winterrowd via groups.io <sailorboy55577=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Installed both ME1616 liquid cooled systems and have Curtis code - throttle disabled because encoder sensor is not detected. Does anyone have experience replacing or repairing this part? If so, please share.

Thanks
John

Re: [electricboats] Kiwiprop

That sounds about right, my boat is 30 feet and around 6,000 pounds. I replaced my beat up old Michigan prop with a 13" varifold 2 blade and can easily get the boat up to 5 knots in light winds. A week ago I had to motor back in a 15 knot headwind with 3 foot waves and was able to get around 4 knots at a 70 amp current draw. The entire trip took around 22% of my 15 Kw lifepo4 bank but that was with ducking through more sheltered parts (the 70 amps was coming out the western gap from Toronto Island in 4 foot swells).

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[electricboats] Encoder/Hall effect sensor issue

Installed both ME1616 liquid cooled systems and have Curtis code - throttle disabled because encoder sensor is not detected. Does anyone have experience replacing or repairing this part? If so, please share.

Thanks
John

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Re: [electricboats] Kiwiprop

Thanks Egbert for the detailed reply. Nice to get some real world feedback, seems like the propeller matching is a bit of a guessing game.

I currently get about 4kts with a fresh bottom job at around 1.2 kW which on my 7.7kWh lifepo4 bank gives me about 5 or so hours of runtime. The kiwi is for sure more efficient than the 2 blade martec I had previously but probably not the best. If I could manage to get 5kts without cavitation I'd be happy with that.

Mine is a 30ft 8500lbs displacement boat.

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Friday, August 12, 2022

Re: [electricboats] How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?

The key to understanding AC grounding is that the power source is on land. Every electron generated on the land must return to the land. One of the two wires is connected to a metal stake driven into the earth thus it is grounded. This defines the neutral or white wire for AC power.

The load is on the boat which is in the water. The water which separates the load from the source is an electrolyte meaning that it is conducts electricity in varying degrees depending on salinity.

If the wiring is done correctly, every electron entering the boat via the shore-power cord on the way to the load will return via the neutral to the source on land. None will return through the water.

The problems start when there is a fault. A fault can take many forms and often is undetected or intermittent. Typically bad connections, severed wires, incorrect wiring. More subtle things like wires in the bilge with bad insulation possibly connecting the hot wire to the bilge water can happen. The have been cases of wires getting to hot and melting the insulation connecting the AC hot lead to some other random wire. The list is endless.

A properly designed system will purposely blow a breaker under fault.

The neutral wire (grounded) should never be connected directly to any grounding system on the boat. However the connection is absolutely necessary and must be done on the shore at the power source. The connection of grounding (on boat) to grounded (on shore) is made via the shore power cord.

All systems that are generated entirely on the boat will have a so called ground connection. All such systems grounds must be connected to a common point. If not the systems will interact in weird ways. More specifically, if not connected, the AC fault prevention system will be compromised and can possibly become deadly.

From: Dave Yamakuchi via groups.io <dyamakuchi=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: electricboats@groups.io
Sent: Fri, Aug 12, 2022 11:08 am
Subject: Re: [electricboats] How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?

If you don't connect to the 'engine negative,' as it's shown, then that system would be considered floating. If you somehow avoid grounding the engine, that would float it too.

Good luck!

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Re: [electricboats] How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?

If you don't connect to the 'engine negative,' as it's shown, then that system would be considered floating. If you somehow avoid grounding the engine, that would float it too.

Good luck!

Thursday, August 11, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Kiwiprop

I think the kiwiprop is not the best choice for electric propulsion. Increasing the pitch is not going to help, but will make it worse. When I did my install I had a fixed 3 blade propeller. But as I sail mostly big distances (ocean) I definitely wanted a folding or feathering propeller. I first thought about the maxprop also because I was still tinkering with the reduction. I had a very interesting conversation with the importer of the maxprop, and he advised me not to use his product. Firstly he was afraid an electric motor would kill the propeller with the ability to go from forward to reverse too quickly. Funnily your problem is the opposite. And secondly I wanted it to be the most efficient way op propulsion and he said a feathering propeller is never going to be very efficient. There is a big folding/ feathering propeller test from yachting monthly. If you Google it it sh6be eas6to find. There this is confirmed and interesting enough the flexofold 3 blade was in forward even more efficient than the fixed 3 blade. So I chose that one in the smallest pitch option and the same diameter of the fixed prop. To my surprise the cavitation which I had with the fixed propeller was non existent with the flexofold and to my delight more efficient indeed. In reverse it is the absolute opposite lol. But for me not of much importance. In this same test the kiwi prop was by far the least efficient. I did quite a bit of research into propellers too and my conclusion was for electric propulsion where speed is not the most important factor, but efficiency is it's best to go for the biggest propeller you can fit with a low pitch and match the reduction to that.

I hope this helps.

O btw I have a 18" diameter by 11" flexofold for a 16 metric ton steel long keeled cruising boat with the water cooled thunderstruck motor with a 17cell 300ah lithium bank so at 56 volts this gives me 13kw continuous 15kw max and my cruising speed which I set at 4kn takes 2.2kw in flat calm water and reasonable clean bottom. If I want to make miles on the ocean in a no wind situation I usually motor at 1-1,5 kw. The last ocean crossing from the Caribbean towards Europe I did 27 miles on 50% battery. (Solar panels fully charging)

Op vr 12 aug. 2022 00:05 schreef <jesper.malmberg86@gmail.com>:

Thanks Graham, I figured that would be the case. Hopefully not too big of a project.

BTW, what are your specs on your prop? Mine is 15inch and I get a fair amount of cavitation at higher RPM like around 7-800 rpm on the prop,will try and increase the pitch a bit to get same thrust at lower rpm and see how that goes. Also considering replacing the blades with slightly larger ones to bring overall rpm down on the system.

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Re: [electricboats] Kiwiprop

Thanks Graham, I figured that would be the case. Hopefully not too big of a project.

BTW, what are your specs on your prop? Mine is 15inch and I get a fair amount of cavitation at higher RPM like around 7-800 rpm on the prop,will try and increase the pitch a bit to get same thrust at lower rpm and see how that goes. Also considering replacing the blades with slightly larger ones to bring overall rpm down on the system.

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Re: [electricboats] Kiwiprop

I had same problem with my Electric Yacht system (using Sevcon4)

The Sevcons had to be re-programmed to shorten the wait time between

Putting throttle into reverse and activating the Sevcon. This the overcame the spring pressure. Unfortunately, I had to send the Sevcon electronic controllers back to Scott for re-programming.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2022

[electricboats] Kiwiprop

Hello everyone,

I replaced the old two blade folding prop last haulout with a 3-blade kiwiprop and mostly it performs well. Only issue is when reversing, or rather getting it into the reverse position. I knew that it needs to be "jerked" into reverse as with an old diesel when you put it into gear it instantly snaps into reverse from stationary.

If I put go from idle to almost full aft power its enough to overcome the spring pressure but quite often I'm too slow or whatnot and the prop stops at about 45 degrees pitch which creates alot of load on the motor making the belt skip on the pulleys. Anyone with similar experience or a way to fix it?

I have a 10kw Thunderstruck kit with a Sevcon Gen4 controller and a 2:1 belt reduction.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Thanks Halden - my thinking was also that the shock hazard is low, but
my intuition leans toward the mechanical and those electrons often
surprise me. The students in the pool with an array makes it look quite
safe. (No fun projects like that when I attended that institution).

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/11/09/open-source-method-to-build-flexible-floating-pv-systems/

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Monday, August 8, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

I just wanted to put this info into the hands of the group. In searching for methods to drive electric boats I have come across some so far mocked technologies.

The information is somewhat controversial but here I go!

https://youtu.be/OwRsbJrNehc

https://www.freeenergyplanet.biz/free-energy-devices/chapter-magnet-power.html

I am investigating and am planning a few purchases to prove the concept. wish me luck I will get back with you.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:00 PM Walter Pearson <pearson1854@comcast.net> wrote:

My 19 foot sailboat uses a Minn-Kota Endura 55 supplied by two 100Ah AGM batteries. I do have shore power, but would like to be as self-sufficient as possible. I have a semi-flexible 100 watt solar panel, but finding a good method for mounting it has eluded me. I also have a Victron MPPT solar controller, but it has not had anything connected to it for several years.

I recently read an article describing arrays of floating solar panels, so wondered if that concept could be my mounting - or non-mounting - solution. I don't know about the long-range suitability of my components for being partially or totally submerged, but the initial test showed promise and the batteries appeared to be charging normally. The marina staff took notice, but did not sound an alarm.

I would appreciate any input from those with more experience as to whether there would be any hazards this system might produce. With an exercise mat bonded to the backside, it floats in my slip next to the boat and I have no connection to shore power. I previously tested it at a beach with some wave action. Water washing over the panel did not appear to reduce the voltage output appreciably. Not a problem within the marina, but this could be important if used at anchor or on a mooring.

Other particulars: Suaoki module, rated 17.8V at 5.62A; Voc 21.6V; Isc 5.97A.

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Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Hi Walter
21.6 V without much amperage behind it is not likely to be hazardous as far as I know. However, it will give any critter or human a nasty jolt upon chewing through the insulation. If still concerned, you could use coax cable for wiring with the shield at hull potential. It's unlikely any critter would be inclined to wear out teeth trying to cut through the shield. Or, you could slide a rigid tube or even conduit over the wires you're concerned about.
Interesting comment about the PV electricity accelerating corrosion if one side is in the water and the other on the boat. With attention to polarity, I suppose PV could be used instead of a sacrificial anode.
Cheers
Halden

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Sunday, August 7, 2022

Re: [electricboats] How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 07:20 PM, Dave Yamakuchi wrote:

your ABYC guy was trying to explain re: green wires, but I don't know where any kind of 'floating' enters into it.

According to the ABYC Standards Developer, both my 12 VDC and 48 VDC subsystems would be considered to be 'floating' because none of their current-carrying wires are connected to ground, including the negative terminals of the batteries,. Only the metallic, non-current carrying components within each system are grounded for safety purposes. In my case, those are limited to the motor case and the various metallic parts in physical contact with it, such as the Thunderstruck reduction plate/motor mount, prop shaft, etc. [Prop shaft to have a sacrifical anode attached.] Connection to 'ground' is via a plate on the exterior of the keel, connected to a heavy studded bus located in the bilge. [Thru hulls, chain plates, and stays are also connected to this bus.]
In this arrangement, where the DC systems float relative to ground, overcurrent protection is required (per my ABYC source) on both positive and negative sides of the circuit..
The 120 VAC shore power safety ground will also connect to the grounding bus in the bilge, with a galvanic isolater interposed (rather than an isolation transformer), though I'm still shopping for the most suitable device..
This relatively simple arrangement is possible because my boat has no alternator and starter-equipped engine; no generator; no inverter and no AC appliances installed.
I use a copy of ABYC Standard E-11 downloaded from their website; Diagram 3 on its page 33 most closely resembles my setup though there will be no connection to 'Engine Negative'. Rather, as mentioned above, it will go to the ground bus in the bilge.

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Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Thanks for replies and cautions, but I agree with cpcanoesailor that heavy weather is not a great concern. I could easily take it onboard if necessary. I do that now when I leave the boat unattended for any length of time. I only plan to use such a system when in my marina slip. Tied securely to the pier, I would think having almost zero windage and somewhat 'glued' to the water surface, this panel would be less likely to be damaged in high winds than the others around that are mounted on decks and davits.

I'm more concerned with the electrical aspect and what the consequences might be if a critter got curious and pulled out the connector or found the cable insulation to be tasty. Is there any way that those open circuit 21.6 volts in the wrong place could be hazardous to boats nearby or someone in the water? The corrosion possibility mentioned is the area that needs to be investigated. Not so worried about my boat, but other boats nearby that are conventionally wired and configured (through-hulls and prop shafts, etc.). (I am in Lake Superior so the electrolyte is not so conductive.)

The Army's floating panels - and most of the similar projects - require floating structures. The literature I've read often cites this aspect to be the main drawback. The foam flotation method reduces the infrastructure to a large extent - and reduces my mounting problems to zero. It also produces a lower temperature panel - albeit at the expense of zero inclination. For my short summer season, I don't expect a flat orientation to appreciably limit my battery charging capability.

Good point on the controller. I will have to look into the MPPT specs. I assumed being a solar panel controller, it would have the necessary fail-safes. Probably best not to assume. I have the two cables from the solar panel going to a polarized bulkhead connector on the cabin wall. That is two-wire connected to the solar input on the MPPT and the MPPT battery output directly to negative bus and to battery selector switch. I have nothing connected to the MPPT output terminals. For now, I plan to disconnect the charging system when using the Minn-Kota.

Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

This is a worst case scenario. Beware of other unrelated minor issues that can become a major player. Consider what happens when you lose the negative connection. You will have a power source in an electrolyte with one lead connected to the boat. Every electron leaving the power source must return to the source. You have now likely forced the electrons to return through the electrolyte This is not easy to analyze. The return path will most certainly involve the underwater metals. Every electron returning through the underwater metals is equivalent to an ion of metal going into the water. Thus you have created perfect conditions for stray current corrosion. If the conditions are just right, the metals can dissolve rapidly as in weeks if not faster. I have seen many seemingly unrelated faults combine to create disaster. Improper wiring is at the top of the list.

-----Original Message-----
From: sw via groups.io <v1opps=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: electricboats@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Aug 7, 2022 8:36 am
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

How did your hook up your mppt?

When I looked at my motor (mini kota 4hp it says)

Seems to have two red and two black wires that use to go to the old throttle

Someone else took it apart….

Cheers

On Sunday, August 7, 2022, 08:13:14 AM PDT, cpcanoesailor via groups.io <cpcanoesailor=yahoo.ca@groups.io> wrote:

Also - carefully check the specs of your MPPT controller: If there is a short or open circuit from the panel, will the controller protect your batteries? Could it harm the controller?

I added a second flexible panel to my little tri. That panel is exposed, like the first one, but its charge controller sits in a sealed, clear plastic case (the kind for protecting GPSs and phones) on the trampoline. The panel is permanently connected to the controller, and then the connection to the battery has a plug, but is located in a sheltered spot inside the hull.

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Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

How did your hook up your mppt?

When I looked at my motor (mini kota 4hp it says)

Seems to have two red and two black wires that use to go to the old throttle

Someone else took it apart….

Cheers

On Sunday, August 7, 2022, 08:13:14 AM PDT, cpcanoesailor via groups.io <cpcanoesailor=yahoo.ca@groups.io> wrote:

Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Hi Walter,
You may get a little bit more power out of it having it near the water because it'll be cooler. A layer of water on the top might improve the coupling between the air and whatever the front surface is made of, adding yet another boost. However, constant immersion might challenge the encapsulation and lead to premature corrosion.
Cheers
Halden.

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Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

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Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Based on the electrical specs, I'd guess this panel is about 4ft x 2ft. If it is to be used in the marina, at anchor or on a mooring, then that means it will be stowed while underway. So bad weather is not an issue - one more step when securing the boat before a storm is to stow the solar panel.

I don't know how effective a floating panel is, compared to one mounted above the water. It seems to me, the lower the elevation, the more chance of shadows. Also, lots of flotsam floats through some of the marinas and anchorages around here - bits of driftwood, seaweed, garbage. All of that may end up on your floating panel and reduce the output.

I can say that flexible panels can keep working for at least 6 years on a small boat in salt water. My poor panel (similar specs) gets splashed and even washed over while sailing my little trimaran, and even spent several hours fully submerged when the boat it was on previously turtled. Rain is a welcome relief! If the connections are all sealed very well, and the panel is supported to minimize flexing (I'm guessing that there could be eventual leakage due to delamination of the structural layers around the PV cells), then it should keep working.

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Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Ryan, I believe, is suggesting a very practical perspective here. Picture yourself out and caught in a squall. Tiny lakes and rivers? You're maybe fine. Personally, I've had to scramble at the damn _dock_ at times when I had equipment strewn around. You'll likely end up with a swamped dinghy too. On a nice day, I bet it works great.

You might check out what the US Army did:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/14/23167441/us-army-floating-solar-power-plant-floatovoltaics

LOL: “floatovoltaics.”

Also also, if you want even close to full life expectancy out of your panels, and I don't care what kind they are, immersing them is not going to improve life expectancy. Rain is bad enough.

Fair winds and following seas mateys!

Dave

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Saturday, August 6, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Picture it in the worst storm you have seen, and then imagine that two or three times worse, then think through how you would protect it and your boat in that circumstance (and maybe a decent answer is to put it away if storms are predictable where you live). It might not be doing you much good anyway in wintry/cloudy weather.

Maybe a good mental model is what is required to safely float a mooring raft or a swim platform without them being a danger to other boats or washing ashore…. I suspect it's something more than your exercise mat. But… in fair weather maybe that's a fine solution for short periods of time….

On Aug 6, 2022, at 12:14, Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

Maybe if you're boating on a lake---better might be to consider towing a dinghy, stretching out 1 or more frameless light-weight solar panels and storing some of your things in the bottom of the dinghy for ballast. I doubt ABYC addresses how to connect up (and ground) a solar dinghy towed behind an electric sailor…

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Walter Pearson
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 12:01 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

My 19 foot sailboat uses a Minn-Kota Endura 55 supplied by two 100Ah AGM batteries. I do have shore power, but would like to be as self-sufficient as possible. I have a semi-flexible 100 watt solar panel, but finding a good method for mounting it has eluded me. I also have a Victron MPPT solar controller, but it has not had anything connected to it for several years.
I recently read an article describing arrays of floating solar panels, so wondered if that concept could be my mounting - or non-mounting - solution. I don't know about the long-range suitability of my components for being partially or totally submerged, but the initial test showed promise and the batteries appeared to be charging normally. The marina staff took notice, but did not sound an alarm.
I would appreciate any input from those with more experience as to whether there would be any hazards this system might produce. With an exercise mat bonded to the backside, it floats in my slip next to the boat and I have no connection to shore power. I previously tested it at a beach with some wave action. Water washing over the panel did not appear to reduce the voltage output appreciably. Not a problem within the marina, but this could be important if used at anchor or on a mooring.
Other particulars: Suaoki module, rated 17.8V at 5.62A; Voc 21.6V; Isc 5.97A.

Re: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Maybe if you're boating on a lake---better might be to consider towing a dinghy, stretching out 1 or more frameless light-weight solar panels and storing some of your things in the bottom of the dinghy for ballast. I doubt ABYC addresses how to connect up (and ground) a solar dinghy towed behind an electric sailor…

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Walter Pearson
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 12:01 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: [electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

My 19 foot sailboat uses a Minn-Kota Endura 55 supplied by two 100Ah AGM batteries. I do have shore power, but would like to be as self-sufficient as possible. I have a semi-flexible 100 watt solar panel, but finding a good method for mounting it has eluded me. I also have a Victron MPPT solar controller, but it has not had anything connected to it for several years.

I recently read an article describing arrays of floating solar panels, so wondered if that concept could be my mounting - or non-mounting - solution. I don't know about the long-range suitability of my components for being partially or totally submerged, but the initial test showed promise and the batteries appeared to be charging normally. The marina staff took notice, but did not sound an alarm.

I would appreciate any input from those with more experience as to whether there would be any hazards this system might produce. With an exercise mat bonded to the backside, it floats in my slip next to the boat and I have no connection to shore power. I previously tested it at a beach with some wave action. Water washing over the panel did not appear to reduce the voltage output appreciably. Not a problem within the marina, but this could be important if used at anchor or on a mooring.

Other particulars: Suaoki module, rated 17.8V at 5.62A; Voc 21.6V; Isc 5.97A.

[electricboats] Floating PV Hazard Potential?

Other particulars: Suaoki module, rated 17.8V at 5.62A; Voc 21.6V; Isc 5.97A.

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Friday, August 5, 2022

Re: [electricboats] How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?

-tv,

"How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?" is at least two questions amigo. This is what I'm saying. You can simplify the topic, but only so much. Connecting those two together can easily make a problem.

Really, these threads usually bring up a lot of good questions tho...and there's good reasons for that. So for clarity, let's please just refer to the same E-11 drawings for examples. Yes? Here:

http://www.blackfinforums.com/sites/default/files/10/attachments/abyc-e-11.pdf

To be crystal clear: I let my AC green from shore power terminate only to the shield of the isolation transformer(s) exactly as shown in both diagram 6 and/or 7 on pages 37 & 39. In audio we call this 'ground lifting.' That ground stops there. I mean, mine's actually got a power strip with up to three different transformers, all ground lifted just like that. Four if I plug in the phone charger. :-) But that's the connections.

However, that diagram doesn't also show the 12V grounding you _also_ asked about, nor the system anodes someone else did.

So, please see Figure 18 Page 54 for that stuff. I don't have exactly that particular gak shown, but that's the green wires' connections. They connect to the negative battery terminal(s). In one and only one location.

Also to me, Figure 18 looks like maybe what your ABYC guy was trying to explain re: green wires, but I don't know where any kind of 'floating' enters into it.

Everything is depicted grounded _and_ ground referenced in _all_ those diagrams. Read the surrounding text. Everything is ground referenced in all the other E-11 diagrams too as far as I see. If ABYC is telling you floating your system is cool now then, you know, do whatever you want I guess. People are doing it, if that's what you want to know. Lightning prolly won't strike...right? Hey, MinnKota does it! :-)

You're asking: "Just tell me how." Once you learn why it will become obvious what you want to do.

Ciao!

On Friday, August 5, 2022, 10:30:03 AM CDT, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:

Dave,
Lots of information in your post ... but did you include an answer to the question posed by this topic: to what are you connecting your AC safety ground wire?

ALSO, I question some of your statements with respect to connection of negative battery terminals to ground. The DC grounding bus is not a connection the DC battery negative terminal.
This is what an ABYC Standards Developer in the ABYC Technical Department wrote to me just a few days ago on this exact topic:
"In isolated/ungrounded/floating DC system the main AC grounding bus (green wires) should be connected to the boat's DC grounding bus (green wires).

The DC grounding bus is where all green wires from metallic noncurrent carrying parts of direct current devices (e.g., metallic case) are connected. So you can have an ungrounded (aka isolated, floating) DC system, which means that the NEGATIVE side is not grounded (isolated from the ground), but have DC grounding bus where all green safety grounding wires are connected. Also, your cathodic bonding system (if installed) would be connected there."

I am currently in the process of making the final installation of my propulsion system, and bringing AC on board for the first time, as it was not installed by the mfg (Cape Dory).
This ABYC Standards Developer also told me that since my DC propulsion system was 60 VDC or less, it is *not* coverd by ABYC E-30. I made the mistake early on of assuming that *any* electric propulsion system was covered by this standard.

Anyway, I hope that readers can refrain from the theoretical discussions and didactic lectures -- of which as you point out, there are already plenty -- and get straight to the heart of the matter: to what have you attached your AC safety ground, and (if provided) the safethy grounding system of your 12 VDC subsystems?

Thanks.

[-tv]

[electricboats] 24 Kwh battery, jetski included

This electric jetski got good reviews.
https://www.taigamotors.com
Priced at $18k. Has a 24 kwh lifepo4 pack. The battery must be almost half the cost. If you could figure out how to hook it to boat pack you could tow this "range extender" off the back of the big boat. When you get low on boat power take some from it. When the bad guys come for you you do like James Bond and hop on it with your supermodel girlfriend and escape to cocktails.

Seriously it would be great to have at my off grid house to supplement the house pack. No info on website about pack voltages although probably too high based on the motor is 160kw and you can get it with DC fast charging.
Jerry Barth

Re: [electricboats] 10 kwh pod motor DYI #wiki-notice

[Edited Message Follows]

BLDC typically. No reduction gear, direct drive usually, although Pure Watercraft uses a planetary gear reduction, to keep the motor inline with the prop shaft. Keeping the motor in the pod tends to simplify cooling.

So these would typically use PWM controllers. One big challenge is getting something 'torquey' enough to keep RPM low but power still high. Axial flux motors usually work for that, but don't fit well in the pod (too much diameter). That's when a 90-degree gear reduction can show up, as in ICE outboards.

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Re: [electricboats] 10 kwh pod motor DYI #wiki-notice

BLDC typically. No reduction gear, direct drive usually, although Pure Watercraft uses a planetary gear reduction, to keep the motor inline with the prop shaft. Keep in the motor in the pod tends to simplify cooling.

So these would typically use PWM controllers. One big challenge is getting something 'torquey' enough to keep RPM low but power still high. Axial flux motors usually work for that, but don't fit well in the pod (too much diameter). That's when a 90-degree gear reduction can show up, as in ICE outboards.

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Re: [electricboats] How are you grounding your AC (shore power) and your 12 VDC subsystems?

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