Friday, July 31, 2009

[Electric Boats] Static Thrust was Re: Trolling Motors

 


dennis wolfe <dwolfe@dropsheet.com> wrote:
(snip)

> Its static thrust (bollard pull) is not relevant to how fast it will push the
> boat. Thrust is a stupid way of comparing motors as the boats are not used
> tied to a stationary dock.

Denny:

I'd like to explore this a bit, as, on the contrary, I consider static
thrust a very relevant selection criterion (which, unfortunately, is never
published by outboard manufacturers). I have two Yamaha 9.9HiThrust gas
outboard motors on my 36' sailing catamaran which have served me wonderfully
for seven years of cruising (each has about 2600hours on it). My top speed
with both engines wide-open is 7.8kts, which, quite frankly, I only did once
"just to see what she would do". My normal cruising speed is just below
5kts.

My criteria is indeed static thrust because over the years I have faced
situations whereby I had to maneuver the boat in confined spaces into some
very strong winds whereby the boat is barely moving with the engines wide
open as you head into and try to turn across the wind. This to me is a most
important selection criteria as, in my example, an equivalent 9.9hp motor
with high-speed prop and gearing fails miserably in this situation.

Staying on topic of electric boats, I am exploring adding an electric drive
(outboard?) as a tertiary drive system since I have excess solar and battery
capacity. I've been comparing static thrusts for the above reason.

Perhaps you would care to elaborate as to why I'm looking at the wrong
specs?

JoeS.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Panel Durability Question

 

Harbor Freight has solar panels for $39.95. Installed one on an Ericson
27 and doing quite well.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:22:19 -0400 "Monte Gisborne"
<emotive@xplornet.com> writes:

Thanks, Will, these seem to be just about perfect in every respect. I am
concerned about the potential for shatter given the hard operating
conditions and these seem to solve that problem, and also allow for easy
swap-out in the event a module fails. I think we'll leave the tempered
glass modules to do their good work on non-planing vessels. The cost is
reasonable too.

Monte

_____

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of William Marsh
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:52 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Panel Durability Question

I was concerned about durability enough to pick Sunwize Solchargers for
my
boat and in other projects. They are made of FR4 plastic instead of
tempered glass and have proven to be quite durable.
http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/mcymtv> com/mcymtv

But I have seen the tempered glass variety on boats as well. On some
larger
sailboats they are mounted in rigid frames over the stern where they are
not
as likely to get hit or stepped on.

Will

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
Need cash? Click to get a loan.
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RE: [Electric Boats] Solar Panel Durability Question

 

Thanks, Will, these seem to be just about perfect in every respect. I am
concerned about the potential for shatter given the hard operating
conditions and these seem to solve that problem, and also allow for easy
swap-out in the event a module fails. I think we'll leave the tempered
glass modules to do their good work on non-planing vessels. The cost is
reasonable too.

Monte

_____

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of William Marsh
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 2:52 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Panel Durability Question

I was concerned about durability enough to pick Sunwize Solchargers for my
boat and in other projects. They are made of FR4 plastic instead of
tempered glass and have proven to be quite durable.
http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/mcymtv> com/mcymtv

But I have seen the tempered glass variety on boats as well. On some larger
sailboats they are mounted in rigid frames over the stern where they are not
as likely to get hit or stepped on.

Will

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Panel Durability Question

 

I was concerned about durability enough to pick Sunwize Solchargers for my
boat and in other projects. They are made of FR4 plastic instead of
tempered glass and have proven to be quite durable.
http://tinyurl.com/mcymtv

But I have seen the tempered glass variety on boats as well. On some larger
sailboats they are mounted in rigid frames over the stern where they are not
as likely to get hit or stepped on.

Will

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Monte Gisborne <emotive@xplornet.com>wrote:

>
>
> Here's one for the gang:
>
> Does anyone have any experience with using a conventional rigid (tempered
> glass) solar panel on a planning boat? My concern is more about durability,
> i.e., whether these panels are made to withstand the environmental
> conditions such as vibration and shock from a high-powered gas boat (19
> feet, 200 hp) blasting through open choppy waters on full plane. Are there
> any modifications or other precautions which should be considered to
> prevent
> the panels from possibly shattering? Any solar panel experts out there?
>
> Monte Gisborne, B.Tech.
>
> Tamarack Lake Electric Boat Company
>
> 207 Bayshore Drive, R.R.#3,
>
> Brechin, Ontario Canada L0K 1B0
>
> (705) 484-1559
>
> (416) 432-7067 (cell phone)
>
> monte@tamarackelectricboats.com <monte%40tamarackelectricboats.com>
>
> www.tamarackelectricboats.com
>
> Tamarack Lake... Where Water and Electricity Mix!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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RE: [Electric Boats] Abusive and dangerous Re-Epower technical specification

 

>The Queen Mary runs on electrics...

Queen Mary 2 is propelled by electric motors, but its electric energy is
created by 4 diesel engines (67Mw total) and 2 gas turbines (50Mw total).

Queen Mary 1 was steam powered.

QM2 is a great example to point out to skeptics who think that it would make
no sense to have a larger boat propelled by electric motors if you'd need a
genset to create the electricity.

-MT

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[Electric Boats] Solar Panel Durability Question

 

Here's one for the gang:

Does anyone have any experience with using a conventional rigid (tempered
glass) solar panel on a planning boat? My concern is more about durability,
i.e., whether these panels are made to withstand the environmental
conditions such as vibration and shock from a high-powered gas boat (19
feet, 200 hp) blasting through open choppy waters on full plane. Are there
any modifications or other precautions which should be considered to prevent
the panels from possibly shattering? Any solar panel experts out there?

Monte Gisborne, B.Tech.

Tamarack Lake Electric Boat Company

207 Bayshore Drive, R.R.#3,

Brechin, Ontario Canada L0K 1B0

(705) 484-1559

(416) 432-7067 (cell phone)

monte@tamarackelectricboats.com

www.tamarackelectricboats.com

Tamarack Lake... Where Water and Electricity Mix!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Trolling Motors

 

Kevin,

The 12v will get up to 800 rpm pushing a canoe, the 36v will get to 800 pushing a 2000# sailboat, sort of. Tied to the dock (measuring thrust) the 36v will spin faster, producing more thrust.

You want to pick a prop that loads the motor to its max continuous amps on your boat. You need an ammeter to measure load and the ability to change props or gearing. Trolling motors have none of these abilities - but they are cheap. You clamp it on and get what you get.

Case in point: I have an EPIC electric outboard with a kort nozzle. With the nozzle it has enough thrust to push the boat up onto the trailer. Without the nozzle it will barely nudge it up half way. It's gotta be producing 2 or 3x the thrust with the nozzle. With the boat running free the nozzle makes no difference in speed vs. power.

Its static thrust (bollard pull) is not relevant to how fast it will push the boat. Thrust is a stupid way of comparing motors as the boats are not used tied to a stationary dock.

Denny
www.wolfEboats.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Alycia & Kevin Miller-Lynch
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Trolling Motors

àAnswer: All MinnKota and MotorGuide products (12v, 23v, 36v) are design to
spin at about 800 rpm for a max speed of around 3 mph . . . though they
claim 4 mph.

This doesn't make sense to me. If the 12, 24, and 36 all spin the same RPM,
and all use the same prop, they should all have the same thrust - so why
different voltages?

The only thing that would make sense is if the same prop on 12v makes 54lb
thrust and on 36v produces 108lb of thrust, it must be spinning a lot
faster. Thrust is somewhat like F=mv where F is force (thrust) m is mass
(amount of water moved by prop) and v is velocity (speed of the water moved
by the prop). The only way to increase F without increasing the mass (the
amount of water the prop moves, hence prop size or pitch) is to increase
velocity. Is anyone else following my logic? The only reason I'm beating
it to death, is I don't have access to a 24 or 36v motor, and I don't want
to spend the money to find out that John is right..

Anyone else care to comment?

Thanks for the tip on streamdancer

Kevin

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Abusive and dangerous Re-Epower technical specification

 

I would disagree with the assertion that rpm does not drop on a PM DC motor with variable loads.
I have a handheld rpm guage, and I think I checked the rpm with and without the motor linked to the prop and it was quite different. That was a while ago, and I would be willing to double check that fact if someone were really interested.

Hans

--- On Tue, 7/28/09, Chris Baker <chris@currentsunshine.com> wrote:

From: Chris Baker <chris@currentsunshine.com>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Abusive and dangerous Re-Epower technical specification
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2009, 5:01 PM

 

Hi Redu,

You touch on an important issue here, and it doesn't seem to be

mentioned much.

That is that RPM of a PM DC motor is proportional to volts, and the

converse, that by measuring volts, you can deduce the RPM.

And its this point that is critical for our use of electric motors on

boats.

What follows is based on my observations from recent adventures with

an electric motors, and I'm really not expert at this. So I'd welcome

commentary from those better informed than me.

I often see the idea promoted that dc motors are great because they

have maximum power available from zero revs, and throughout their

range. But in practise this turns out not to be so, and it seems to

be because of this relationship between volts and RPM.

Lets say the motor is running at 1 tenth of its maximum revs, and

using this rule of proportions, the voltage at this RPM is also 1

tenth of its maximum. So to get anywhere near its rated power, the

amps that its drawing would have to be ten times the amps that would

be needed for its rated power.

To put some real figures on it, say the motor is rated at 4kw, and at

50 volts, that would mean its drawing 80 amps. (thats 80 amps x 50

volts = 4000 watts). Say the maximum revs of the motor is 2000 rpm.

So now we can look at what happens when the motor is running at 200

RPM. Its voltage is 5, and the amps its needs to provide 4kw of

power is 800. And the reality is that the cables, fusing,

controller, brushes and so on are not rated at that, and so it simply

doesn't happen. The controller will probably limit the current to

some preset maximum, say 200 amps, and even that will only last a

short time. But even at 200 amps (lots of heat in the wires etc) the

power is back to 200x5 = 1kw.

(I wonder if the motor was directly connected to the batteries, and

not through a PWM controller, and therefore 50 volts was available

and fed to the motor, whether it would actually be capable of full

power throughout its range?)

Wouldn't it be then that the real power curve for an PM DC motor is a

straight line, starting at zero power at zero revs, and ending at

peak power at peak revs?

On the other hand, the power curve of a diesel or petrol engine

usually peaks at less than maximum revs, and so its seems that more

of its power is practically available in the mid rev range.

And thinking about props, If the prop is large, and you don't get

much slip, the dc motor could be easily overloaded at low revs, and

never be able to get the boat up to its speed potential, and never be

able to use that maximum power that is only available at maximum

revs. If the prop is relatively smaller diameter, and allows more

slip, it would then allow the motor to spin faster, and thereby get

more of the motor's potential power converted to thrust.

The combination of these factors mean its critical to have the prop

well matched to the motor.

Cheers

Chris

http://www.currents unshine.com

On 29/07/2009, at 5:57 AM, redu wrote:

>

> The key feature of any PM DC motor is, that RPM is directly

> proportional

> to supply voltage:

> - You can turn throttle to maximum without any load, and RPM = k *

> voltage. Note: No excessive revs possible! Note: Knowing this "k", you

> can see motor RPM directly from input voltage reading.

> - If there is a heavy load, you still get RPM = k * voltage.

> This means that you can increase HP simply by loading the motor

> more and

> more. Input current figure only increases accordingly. And input power

> to motor is voltage * current.

>

> Indeed, it is possible to load more heavily for instance by changing a

> gear ratio or by increasing the propeller pich,

>

> In practice there is an input ampere limit, as coils inside motor

> start

> to get heated due to their ohmic resistance, if too high current

> figures.

>

> redu

>

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Thursday, July 30, 2009

Re: [Electric Boats] Abusive and dangerous Re-Epower technical specification

 

The Queen Mary runs on electrics...

Arby

On Jul 31, 2009, at 12:48 AM, "aweekdaysailor" <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well an electric motor may have saved that boat - if they had one they'd have never tried beating the flood!

...so while not an ideal example I found it ironic that the same flood tide giving me a pleasant boost home was eating another boat.

I guess we could debate whether inside or outside the gate presents more hazards (the ferry's are pretty scary...), but I know where there are more power outlets...

-Keith

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Arby bernt <arbybernt@...> wrote:
>
> I reviewed the link sent to the e-boat forum regarding
> the fate of Savage Beauty. Stated clearly, "the crew tried to start the inboard motor, but quickly fouled the prop." Regretfully, they were doomed by two factors, neither of which was the result of the propulsion method. First, they placed them selves in peril by choosing to skirt the counter currents near the shore (I have done the same), and second, when the prop was fouled, probably by attempting to set some ground tackle in panicky conditions (this I have also done, just off of Angel Island in fact) Risking a dive to cut the line off the prop would have been suicidal in their location, however. Confining your boat to inland waters is not the solution, as nasty conditions can arise anywhere.
> Common sense and respect for Nature cannot be replaced by large engines and a lack of planning. To this end, we chose not to remove the fuel tank from our boat, or the outboard mount from the stern. I hope the spare engine remains wrapped in its locker. Its nice to know its there.
> Arby
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:50:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Abusive and dangerous Re-Epower technical specification
>
>
> As if to prove my point...
>
> http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Images-from-Frisco:-Savage-Beauty-ravaged/59458
>
> (I was out Saturday as well - not fighting the 4+kt flood. I heard the call on VHF and figured it was a fishing boat. Luckily everyone off safe)
>
> -Keith
>
> --- In electricboats@ yahoogroups. com, "aweekdaysailor" <aweekdaysailor@ ...> wrote:
>
> > That's why I keep my boat confined to the SF Bay and won't go offshore anymore.
> >
> > -Keith
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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