Saturday, December 31, 2011

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Ok solar experts

 

Actually Myles I would want to take the Solar array to the 144v batteries first if possible since the House Bank is charged from them through the 144v to 12v charger/converter. No direct connection from the Solar to the House bank. This would require at least 4 48v panels (I think), which is questionable for my Davit installation, giving me 192v with a MPPT (if they even make one this size, to control the voltage to around 164v or 13.6v per battery. These would have to be in series so I’d get only 210w (est) or 1.2 Amps correct? If so this isn’t enough to justify the system cost.

 

OR   

 

Run the Solar to the House Bank (12v) with a MPPT. 3 panels at 17v each in parallel at 210w or 16 Amps? Now we are getting somewhere.

 

My question on sending the solar up to the 144v bank was just 1 to many drink thinking, and has been discarded along with the empties. KISS.

 

Steve in Solomons MD

Lagoon 410 SE    

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:49 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Ok solar experts

 




Steve-

 

It’s not clear to me what you are suggesting with the solar panels, but it sounds like you are suggesting that you would take your no. 144v solar array and apply it directly to your 12v house battery bank without reconfiguring the panels to be connected in parallel instead of series.

If that is the case, then your 144v panel array will only deliver 1/12th the rated power to the 12v battery bank compared to its being connected to the 144v bank.  The panels deliver current (not power) proportional to the solar energy captured by them.  The lower you clamp the voltage, the less power captured and delivered.  Connecting the panels in parallel and direct connecting to the 12v bank would be better.  Shading one panel would not affect the others.  In series, a single panel or fraction thereof can take down the entire string’s output.  But say you go with parallel panels and their Vmpp is 17v.  At 12-13v battery voltage, you’d only be capturing some 65% or so of the solar energy.  Incorporating a MPP tracker could boost that up above 90%, but then the cost may not justify it.

 

-Myles

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve D
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 7:54 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Ok solar experts

 

 

Hi Damon,
A good point and one I'm questioning as far as running solar through the Propulsion bank. Yes I also have a house bank, 3 agm's at 12v 540AH.
The existing system is set up to take everything through the Propulsion (144v) bank. All charging (regen, Genset, shore) and distribution starts there. The house bank gets it's charging from a 144v to 12v (DC to DC) converter. Since this is the starting point my first thoughts would be to take the solar to that point since any excess solar power would then be sent to the House bank. The question then is with shading will the 144v bank still charge or just shut down the solar since it can't meet the 144 voltage? If this is the case it would be better to have the panels going to the 12V House bank. Another question is can I find an UP inverter from 12V to 144V. If I can than this would be much simpler. Then you also have a charger down (144v to 12v) and up (12v to 144v). I wonder what that would do to everything? It's getting to the point of I can't have it both ways it seems. The good news is if I just do solar to the House bank then a substantial load would be taken of the Propulsion bank. It's just that I think I would still have excess solar that could be added to the Propulsion bank instead of just "throwing it away".

Does any of this make sense?

Thanks,
Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

> Connecting solar panels in series to get 144v will work, but shading on any
> of the panels will degrade the output of the whole series string. I have a
> friend who built a systems that charges at 12v and drives the boat at 48v.
> Afterwards, he's not convinced it's better than a DC/DC converter, but the
> idea was for charging in parallel and propulsion in series for higher
> efficiency during both.
>
> Didn't the original post mention a big 12v bank that was electrically
> connected to the traction bank? I'm not familiar with DC/DC converters, but
> if you charged the 12v, would the converter charge the traction bank?
>
> Damon
>

 


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[Electric Boats] Battery monitor?

 

Ok folks I have a hardware question. One of these days I am going to put a 48 volt system (probably one of the kits, fatherhood doesn't allow me the time to build from scratch) in my boat, and in the mean time there's a 12 volt system for house power. Are there any fairly simple battery monitors out there that will be able to display volts/amps for both banks?

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Ok solar experts

 

Steve,

I will run the numbers that others have not.  Polycrystaline panels that produce good numbers produce roughly 13 watts per sq. Foot. How you divide that up into amps and volts is your choice. As was stated in previous posts any shade on part of the panel reduces the output to the lowest denominator, this is dependent on panel configuration. (lowest output cell on the panel). amorphous Panels don't put out the same amount of power per sq. foot as do the Polys but will still put out well in partial shade. The reason this is so is the dye color can be made to suit. Lab discoveries show Polys that employ a bubble surfaced mylar mirror behind the cell as a backing can increase the output to close the gap between crystaline panels and Polys. to date however the polys sold by places like Harbor Freight with a surface area of roughly 9sq ft. produce a grand 45w. or 5w per sq. ft.

To fix the shade problem you could build a mylar mirror as discribed on Nielson Enterprises web site and reflect the sun onto the panel. This would take some effort on your part but may be worth the effort if you want to go green. This method would make the need to have the panels move to get best results void for all installations as well.

If you want solar to add much to your boat you will find house loads benefit from solar. If you are at anchor or dock they may give you a head start on fuel consumption at the start of a journey. Don't expect them to replace plentiful fuel however, because I know of no renewable fuel system that is up to the task without a lot of real estate.

Kevin Pemberton

On 12/31/2011 12:00 PM, Steve Dolan wrote

Actually Myles I would want to take the Solar array to the 144v batteries first if possible since the House Bank is charged from them through the 144v to 12v charger/converter. No direct connection from the Solar to the House bank. This would require at least 4 48v panels (I think), which is questionable for my Davit installation, giving me 192v with a MPPT (if they even make one this size, to control the voltage to around 164v or 13.6v per battery. These would have to be in series so I’d get only 210w (est) or 1.2 Amps correct? If so this isn’t enough to justify the system cost.

 

OR   

 

Run the Solar to the House Bank (12v) with a MPPT. 3 panels at 17v each in parallel at 210w or 16 Amps? Now we are getting somewhere.

 

My question on sending the solar up to the 144v bank was just 1 to many drink thinking, and has been discarded along with the empties. KISS.

 

Steve in Solomons MD

Lagoon 410 SE    

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto: electricboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:49 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Ok solar experts

 




Steve-

 

It’s not clear to me what you are suggesting with the solar panels, but it sounds like you are suggesting that you would take your no. 144v solar array and apply it directly to your 12v house battery bank without reconfiguring the panels to be connected in parallel instead of series.

If that is the case, then your 144v panel array will only deliver 1/12th the rated power to the 12v battery bank compared to its being connected to the 144v bank.  The panels deliver current (not power) proportional to the solar energy captured by them.  The lower you clamp the voltage, the less power captured and delivered.  Connecting the panels in parallel and direct connecting to the 12v bank would be better.  Shading one panel would not affect the others.  In series, a single panel or fraction thereof can take down the entire string’s output.  But say you go with parallel panels and their Vmpp is 17v.  At 12-13v battery voltage, you’d only be capturing some 65% or so of the solar energy.  Incorporating a MPP tracker could boost that up above 90%, but then the cost may not justify it.

 

-Myles

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto: electricboats@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Steve D
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 7:54 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Ok solar experts

 

 

Hi Damon,
A good point and one I'm questioning as far as running solar through the Propulsion bank. Yes I also have a house bank, 3 agm's at 12v 540AH.
The existing system is set up to take everything through the Propulsion (144v) bank. All charging (regen, Genset, shore) and distribution starts there. The house bank gets it's charging from a 144v to 12v (DC to DC) converter. Since this is the starting point my first thoughts would be to take the solar to that point since any excess solar power would then be sent to the House bank. The question then is with shading will the 144v bank still charge or just shut down the solar since it can't meet the 144 voltage? If this is the case it would be better to have the panels going to the 12V House bank. Another question is can I find an UP inverter from 12V to 144V. If I can than this would be much simpler. Then you also have a charger down (144v to 12v) and up (12v to 144v). I wonder what that would do to everything? It's getting to the point of I can't have it both ways it seems. The good news is if I just do solar to the House bank then a substantial load would be taken of the Propulsion bank. It's just that I think I would still have excess solar that could be added to the Propulsion bank instead of just "throwing it away".

Does any of this make sense?

Thanks,
Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

> Connecting solar panels in series to get 144v will work, but shading on any
> of the panels will degrade the output of the whole series string. I have a
> friend who built a systems that charges at 12v and drives the boat at 48v.
> Afterwards, he's not convinced it's better than a DC/DC converter, but the
> idea was for charging in parallel and propulsion in series for higher
> efficiency during both.
>
> Didn't the original post mention a big 12v bank that was electrically
> connected to the traction bank? I'm not familiar with DC/DC converters, but
> if you charged the 12v, would the converter charge the traction bank?
>
> Damon
>

 



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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: OK solar experts

 

Hi Damon,

It sounds like you are wanting to wire each panel in parallel with a 12v battery, then connecting those 4 battery/panel groups into a series string. That sounds like a good way to unbalance your pack since a shaded panel would result in its connected battery not getting charged with the others. 

/Jason



On Dec 30, 2011, at 19:50, Damon Lane <damon.andrew.lane@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I don't believe connecting the solar to the 12v or 144v battery bank will affect shading impacts directly. This is because solar gets up to voltage easily even in overcast weather, but the amps will be very low. According to a chart in a PV text I have, if only one cell in a module (modules often have over 30 cells) is completely shaded, the current at about 16 V will drop from 2.5 amps to less than 0.5 amps.

The book also makes the point that if there is one MPPT controller, which adjusts the voltage to maximize power output, that is connected to modules (panels) in different orientations, there is a lowest common denominator effect, so the panel with the least direct sun will drag down the rest. This should encourage us to wire panels independently, in parallel, which is not possible to get 144v since several panels would have to be wired in series to add their voltages up to 144v. So that's the reason to investigate step-up converters. You'll have to weigh their cost and (in)efficiency, but I don't think the many panels in a 144v array will ever completely avoid shade on a sailboat, it's hard for even one panel to do it!


Thin film panels are more shade tolerant, so despite their inefficiency, are worth a look.

The 48v system I'm going to build in the spring will be easier, probably just two 24v panels in series, but this is a good problem solving/optimization exercise. Speaking of that, can some battery experts tell us if it's a bad idea to say, wire four 12v panels, in parallel, one to each battery in a 48v system? Maybe some batteries would be charged less than others? Then for power, you'd need a complicated switching system to connect the batteries in series? Can they be connected both ways if you have four charge controllers? (Or in Steve's case, six 24v controllers) I drew it out and it doesn't seem like there'd be any shorts or anything: wire it in series for the motor, then connect to smaller parts of it for each solar charger.

Damon

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Minn Kota, take 3

 

The fast answer for "why not use a golf cart controller" is that I already have a Minn Kota cpontroller. The question still is ' "Does anyone know how the soft rheostat is connected to the rest of the controller for controlling speed?"

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:42 AM, matt elder <mattelderca@yahoo.ca> wrote:
 

That looks way too complicated and not very robust.
Why not just use a golf cart controller like I do?
I have two Minn Kota 50AT's on 24 volts and the controller can run up to 36 if I choose.
The controller is mounted in a separate encloser away from the elements and it's just two wires into the motors.
You can also use a remote control in place of a the pot if you need.
If I get ambitious later I'll post some more info.

 
mattelderca


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Friday, December 30, 2011

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Minn Kota, take 3

 

bought a 48V golf cart today
Seller not sure if 5.5  or 11 hp
how do I tell

would love to chat with you Capt. bob 435 678 3436
From: matt elder <mattelderca@yahoo.ca>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Minn Kota, take 3
 
Attach wheel shaft to drive shaft???
 
That looks way too complicated and not very robust.
Why not just use a golf cart controller like I do?
I have two Minn Kota 50AT's on 24 volts and the controller can run up to 36 if I choose.
The controller is mounted in a separate encloser away from the elements and it's just two wires into the motors.
You can also use a remote control in place of a the pot if you need.
If I get ambitious later I'll post some more info.
http://www.evalbum.com/1538

 
mattelderca


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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Intro - Electric houseboat - request for elec boat assistance

 

Eric, 

First, there are a multitude of options for a professional hybrid setup, with out going the backwoods shanty route of an outboard on a house boat. A few examples below:


The original poster was looking for a vendor not home brew advise,  He will need a coastguard approved boat to have paid crew aboard.

Second, he was asking for an electric setup, and without more details I am not sure he will need any more then that. I would assume with the limited information given a clean up boat would be very slow moving, cruising most of the day at very low speeds near the coast or inland waterways. Slow enough even to walk along with as you harvest trash.  An all electric setup with or with out solar may vary well be a good fit for such a boat. 

Third, all though large electric power boat are not common in the US mostly due to our artificially low fuel prices,  Dragonfly being a rare example. That is not the case world wide. Electric narrowboats are common enough in the UK to keep at least a few vendors in business for the last decade http://www.solarboat.co.uk/  and a lot of these boat are much much larger then Dragonfly. 

This is not to even mention the dozens and dozens of electric ferries that ply european water ways every day carrying crew and passengers all day long.
He could just buy a ferry off the shelf and be done with the whole project no vendor needed: 


And lastly according to google their is at least one electric house boat in existence albert not a very large one: 




On Dec 30, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Eric wrote:

 

Hi Rudy,

What size houseboat are you talking about? For all but the smallest houseboats, electric power is difficult to implement safely, to provide enough power to deal with a 15-20pmh crosswind. While it doesn't take much power to push a large boat in calm conditions, there is a reason that most houseboats in the 35'+ range come with twin motors that have 100's of horsepower and it's not all about getting places quickly.

One alternative is to build a boat with electric power for benign conditions, with an outboard engine or two to deploy when needed to get out of a difficult situation. However, this solution adds cost and complexity for redundant systems. This may also be difficult to sell to a grant committee. Many boaters would find themselves better served by a primary system that can handle all normal conditions.

You can check out http://www.slowboatcruise.com/ for the story about a successful "houseboat style" electric boat conversion. Keep in mind that they retained the 60hp diesel motor which they used any time that they wanted speeds greater than 3kts or better maneuverability.

Good luck with your project.

Fair winds and smooth seas,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoovisitor" <rudy@...> wrote:
>
> My name is Rudy Socha and I am the CEO of Wounded Nature - Working Veterans www.woundednature.org
>
> We are a new 501c3 non-profit that has Pepsi, Green Mountain Coffee, Google, and CSX executive among others serving on our board of directors.
>
> We will have 5 houseboats moving up and down the East Coast cleaning rural beaches and estuaries. The clean-up crew will consist of recently discharged veterans who will work for us for 120 days.
>
> I would like to find an electric boat partner who will use our 501c3 status to apply for grants to purchase the technology allowing for at least one of our boats to be electric powered.
>
> Rudy Socha
> CEO
> Wounded Nature - Working Veterans
> www.woundednature.org
> rudy@...
> Cell 440-452-1042
>


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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Intro - Electric houseboat - request for elec boat assistance

 

Hi Eric,

 

Pleased to meet you.  We are talking about a 555 foot Gibson with a fiberglass v hull.  I am not very familiar with the technology available but do realize there are alternate energy grants available for non-profits and would like to take advantage.  We may actually be talking about a hybrid rather than just an electric powered vessel.

 

Rudy Socha

CEO

Wounded Nature - Working Veterans

www.woundednature.org

rudy@woundednature.org

Cell 440-452-1042

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:58 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Intro - Electric houseboat - request for elec boat assistance

 

 

Hi Rudy,

What size houseboat are you talking about? For all but the smallest houseboats, electric power is difficult to implement safely, to provide enough power to deal with a 15-20pmh crosswind. While it doesn't take much power to push a large boat in calm conditions, there is a reason that most houseboats in the 35'+ range come with twin motors that have 100's of horsepower and it's not all about getting places quickly.

One alternative is to build a boat with electric power for benign conditions, with an outboard engine or two to deploy when needed to get out of a difficult situation. However, this solution adds cost and complexity for redundant systems. This may also be difficult to sell to a grant committee. Many boaters would find themselves better served by a primary system that can handle all normal conditions.

You can check out http://www.slowboatcruise.com/ for the story about a successful "houseboat style" electric boat conversion. Keep in mind that they retained the 60hp diesel motor which they used any time that they wanted speeds greater than 3kts or better maneuverability.

Good luck with your project.

Fair winds and smooth seas,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "zoovisitor" <rudy@...> wrote:
>
> My name is Rudy Socha and I am the CEO of Wounded Nature - Working Veterans www.woundednature.org
>
> We are a new 501c3 non-profit that has Pepsi, Green Mountain Coffee, Google, and CSX executive among others serving on our board of directors.
>
> We will have 5 houseboats moving up and down the East Coast cleaning rural beaches and estuaries. The clean-up crew will consist of recently discharged veterans who will work for us for 120 days.
>
> I would like to find an electric boat partner who will use our 501c3 status to apply for grants to purchase the technology allowing for at least one of our boats to be electric powered.
>
> Rudy Socha
> CEO
> Wounded Nature - Working Veterans
> www.woundednature.org
> rudy@...
> Cell 440-452-1042
>

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Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: OK solar experts

 

I don't believe connecting the solar to the 12v or 144v battery bank will affect shading impacts directly. This is because solar gets up to voltage easily even in overcast weather, but the amps will be very low. According to a chart in a PV text I have, if only one cell in a module (modules often have over 30 cells) is completely shaded, the current at about 16 V will drop from 2.5 amps to less than 0.5 amps.

The book also makes the point that if there is one MPPT controller, which adjusts the voltage to maximize power output, that is connected to modules (panels) in different orientations, there is a lowest common denominator effect, so the panel with the least direct sun will drag down the rest. This should encourage us to wire panels independently, in parallel, which is not possible to get 144v since several panels would have to be wired in series to add their voltages up to 144v. So that's the reason to investigate step-up converters. You'll have to weigh their cost and (in)efficiency, but I don't think the many panels in a 144v array will ever completely avoid shade on a sailboat, it's hard for even one panel to do it!


Thin film panels are more shade tolerant, so despite their inefficiency, are worth a look.

The 48v system I'm going to build in the spring will be easier, probably just two 24v panels in series, but this is a good problem solving/optimization exercise. Speaking of that, can some battery experts tell us if it's a bad idea to say, wire four 12v panels, in parallel, one to each battery in a 48v system? Maybe some batteries would be charged less than others? Then for power, you'd need a complicated switching system to connect the batteries in series? Can they be connected both ways if you have four charge controllers? (Or in Steve's case, six 24v controllers) I drew it out and it doesn't seem like there'd be any shorts or anything: wire it in series for the motor, then connect to smaller parts of it for each solar charger.

Damon

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