Myles,
I'm definitely not an expert, I just got the info online. The company that supposedly makes them, FZ Sonic / CEBI, a European company had all those stats on a page on their website when I last posted and when I just went to check again just now it's blank for some reason. Interesting, maybe they just suddenly stopped making them? Another source, http://www.mpoweruk.com/zebra.htm is where I got the 14% from.
Of course, there's also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery#ZEBRA_battery
I'll keep checking the CEBI website, they had a really good list of pdf files with all the stats, I don't know what happened to it. In the meantime, it looks like GE is developing a similar battery- the Durathon, have you heard of it?
http://geenergystorage.com/index.html
As for the benefits of this type of battery over LiFePo, I think one of the big benefits is that Sodium batteries are more the environmental choice, since Sodium is more abundant and the batteries would be 100% recyclable. Sodium batteries would be potentially cheaper if everyone adopted them, since Lithium is rare and would become a fought-for commodity if everyone had to have it.
-Greg
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> Greg-
>
>
>
> Have you found detail numbers anywhere as to how much power is required to
> keep the Zebra pack at 520degF when not in use?
>
> Without numbers, I would guess that a 10kwh pack would require at least
> 100watts continuous power to maintain this temperature even if it's well
> insulated.
>
> Overnight, 100watts amounts to 2.4kwh, or 24% of a 10kwh pack's capacity
> daily.as I said, it may make sense for daily drivers, navies and for those
> who don't have an environmental conscience as regards burning electrons to
> get no benefit, but.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I couldn't find numbers online for this and so the above is all
> pulled out of thin air. Please provide whatever info you know about this.
>
> But honestly, with the price of the Chinese LiFePo batteries being in the
> 1.05-1.20/ah range and with similar cycle life and energy density as the
> molten sodium battery, I can't see why anyone with a boat would want to
> consider the sodium alternative. I haven't seen any good argument for them
> here that includes at least the downside costs of high heating requirements
> and potential high initial costs---never mind the meltdown risks. I'm all
> for seeing new batteries and options, but I want to be able to realistically
> compare them---for that we need data.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> -Myles
>
>
>
> From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Greg Martin
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 1:38 AM
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Future Proof... Reason #149 Why I Love
> Electric Propulsion
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Jim. Modularity- that's a great word to describe electric propulsion
> systems. I figured when I installed my lead-acid batteries in my boat, that
> they would last only long enough until the next better batteries came along.
> Maybe I'm just an optimist, or I need to count on maintaining my batteries
> for a long time, but I am really hoping that my next batteries will be much
> lighter, have more capacity and will be easy to maintain and won't harm the
> environment.
>
> As for Molten salt/ ZEBRA batteries, they do seem interesting. I don't know
> if I'm completely sold on them yet either but it is definitely interesting
> that they are already being used by well established EV companies and the
> Royal Navy and Innovanautic are using them at sea. They do seem to have
> their purpose, and might be ideal for certain use. For day cruising when you
> always go back to the dock at the end of the day and re-charge, they might
> work great. I'm wondering if you wanted to go completely off-grid, if the
> batteries could be maintained with a big enough solar array and wind
> generator.
>
> Another reason I looked into this and I bring it up is because I was
> approached by someone from Spain who is involved with Innovanautic. They are
> looking for partners and want to expand into the US. Personally, I'm not in
> position, but if you're interested in a potential business opportunity
> please introduce yourself to Borja on Electric Seas.
>
> -Greg
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com> , "luv2bsailin" <luv2bsailin@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Right-on Greg.
> > I had the same kind of thoughts about the "modularity" of our systems.
> I've got a new set of flooded golf car batteries in my Albin 25 which I
> expect to last 5 years or more. Who knows what will be available then?
> Meanwhile I can continue to enjoy and refine my drive system and be
> confident that things will only get better on the battery front. If nothing
> else, the rise in popularity of newer technologies will keep downward price
> pressure on the older tech, thus lowering the entry cost for folks just
> getting started.
> > I'm not sold on those molten salt batteries, not for my kind of use
> anyway. There are some suitable applications I'm sure, but the fact that
> they need to be kept hot means they need constant energy input in order to
> be ready for use. Not a good recipe for efficient "off grid" operation, but
> might work for commuter cars, ski boats, aircraft, or some other
> intermittent-use applications where you need high power-to-weight ratio
> while in motion but can stay plugged in to a reliable energy source most of
> the time.
> > Jim
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com> , "Greg Martin" <ffmagellan@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Everyone has probably thought of this already but one thing that I think
> is really cool about electric propulsion is that as energy storage
> technology (our Achilles Heel) improves, our boats will be ready to swap out
> the old batteries for the next better thing. I know we're all on the edge of
> our seats, waiting for the next better battery, right? Our electric motors
> work with lead- acid and lithium ion batteries of course, but they would
> also work with any future wonder that may develop- be that fuel cells,
> hydrogen, ultracapacitors, cold fusion, or...?
> > >
> > > What does everyone think of ZEBRA batteries? For those that haven't
> heard of them, they are thermal sodium batteries that use molten salt as an
> electrolyte, and proponents claim that they have 4x as much capacity and are
> lighter/ smaller than the alternatives. They use salt and so are better for
> the environment and potentially cheaper. They are also currently being used
> in EVs (Think City and Modec), by the British Royal Navy on submarines and
> are now even being used on a sailing yacht in Europe, apparantly with great
> success.
> > >
> > > Here's a short summary, with links and references about ZEBRA batteries
> and Innovanautic's use of them on their boat in Europe:
> > >
> > > http://www.electricseas.org/profiles/blogs/innovanautic-inspires-europe
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > -Greg
> > >
> >
>
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