Thursday, November 30, 2017

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Introduction

 

*** T105 battery technology can store 0.3% of the energy Diesel fuel can store per unit weight.
The 0.3/100 energy ratio is based on a 62 pound fully charged T105 delivering 600Watts for 100minutes down to 1.75V/cell (1kWh of energy)  If we estimate Diesel engine at 45% efficiency and electric motor at 90% efficiency the miserable 0.3% performance improves to 0.55%
Somebody please check the numbers above in case I screwed up somewhere. Thank you.
 *** T105 battery has about five times more volume compared to pure Pb at the same weight.
The possibility of having FLA batteries getting flooded with salt water in the bilges could be a concern too. So the battery as a ballast is not so good either. 
The reason we love our batteries is the Diesel engine's tank can't be refilled using sunshine :-)
Cheers
Ahmet



From: "cpcanoesailor@yahoo.ca [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 10:13 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Introduction

 
Good comments. I'll just add that on a keel boat, you can probably replace ballast with batteries for no net weight gain. Lead is lead (or lithium).
Curtis


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Re: [Electric Boats] Introduction

 

in theory, yes. In reality, No.  Location of ballast is critical.  How many keel-shapped batteries have you seen?


-Rob


On Nov 30, 2017, at 7:11 AM, cpcanoesailor@yahoo.ca [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Good comments. I'll just add that on a keel boat, you can probably replace ballast with batteries for no net weight gain. Lead is lead (or lithium).
Curtis


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[Electric Boats] Re: Introduction

 

Good comments. I'll just add that on a keel boat, you can probably replace ballast with batteries for no net weight gain. Lead is lead (or lithium).
Curtis

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Introduction

 

Thanks king

Interesting insights and sounds like great projects are at hand. 
I am a mechanical engineering technologist by trade and have some knowledge of fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, physics and electricity / electronics. As a thought experiment has anyone considered replacement of the ballast in a monohull with a battery(s)? That might free up a ton or so of weight (or more likely 40-50% of displacement). Thoughts?

Phil Cook
MBA CET LEED AP



On Nov 29, 2017, at 10:22 PM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

If you need long range, you need diesel. On a monohull sailboat, no matter how many solar panels and controllers you can afford, you just can't hang enough of them in a way that they are never shaded by mast and sails, to keep going day and night, or to approach hull speed without depleting batteries. Regen doesn't do much for you, unless your speed under sail is up in the double digits. And honestly, hull speed is not a very realistic electrocruising speed at all. E-boats are generally driven at about half of hull speed, or less, in order to increase range. Push the hull hard, and you reduce your range dramatically. Going fast is cool, but you will only do it when you only need to run the motor for a half hour or so, typically.

Where electric drive really shines is for boats that are SAILED, and only need mechanical propulsion for docking and other maneuvering, such as bridge passages and power tacking. Yup, that's a thing. Since electric power is instantly available with no warmup or startup sequence, if your boat tacks like a pig or your foredeck crew are more hindrance than help, just twist the knob and force her head across the wind. Works great with full keel boats, even. Electric is good also because there is no minimum idle speed. No need to "bump it" in and out of gear. Much easier to steer while making sternway. Or come alongside your finger pier, grab your near side stern line and drop it on the cleat, and come ahead dead dead dead slow against it while you singlehandedly make all your other lines fast. Back into the wind, for really slow approaches to a pumpout station or fuel dock, and crabwalk right in there like you have twin screws or a bow thruster. Once you really learn how to use an e-drive, you will hate docking a diesel boat. And kw/hrs of shore power are cheap. Charge your batts overnight and you are ready for a day trip in the morning.

BUT... there is the range thing. Yeah you can get more batteries, but there is a practical limit. I have a 7600 lb boat and I have about 600 lbs of batteries, more or less, 10.56kw/hrs of storage. If I double that, well, you do the math. I got rid of maybe 450 lbs of engine and fuel tank and assorted associated stuff, but added 600 in batteries and 35 in motor and controller. No biggie, so far. Adding another 600 would not be a deal killer but just finding room for 8 more golf cart batteries is something I have agonized over. Still ANOTHER bank, would be horrible to contemplate, and I would still have less than 32kw/hr of total storage, of which only half would be routinely considered active and usable. You CAN discharge lead acid batteries down to 40% once in a while, and one or two dips to 30% might be acceptable in emergency, but basically, the rule of thumb is 50%  DOD. YMMV. Now I have calculated that under reasonable conditions on Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana's own inland sea, I currently have an absolute range at 1 knot or so of 100nm from 50% DOD. If I double the speed, I don't cut the range in half. I cut it way more than half. At 5kt I probably have a range of 6 or 7 miles. So I can have modest range at very low speed, or I can have good speed with very low range, but not the best of both. Adding enough batteries to make the boat nearly impossible to live on, (I am a liveaboard) would still have me short of being able to electrocruise to Florida. Now since my mast and sails are gone and will never reappear, I can put up a solar canopy over the entire boat, an upcoming project, and possibly crowd as much as 2kw of solar up there. That would possibly give me a round the clock electrocruise speed of maybe 2-1/2kt, I don't know, if the sun shines all day. That's okay, for me. Is it okay for you? And you will be lucky to be able to mount 1/5 that much solar where the sails and rigging never shade them.

It can be a lot cheaper to repower electric, IF you are willing to learn an awful lot about electric and propulsion engineering, and mix and match your own off the shelf components. Or it can be somewhat cheaper to install a beta diesel than to install a full turnkey e-drive system. There is more room for the owner to do the engineering and sourcing and adaptification and installation, thereby reducing total cost, than with diesel. On top of that, most new diesels must be installed by an authorized mechanic, Beta being one exception. So yeah, you can DIY your electric propulsion system. But without a LOT of study and research and good basic knowledge of electricity and electronics and engineering background, you are likely to end up with a bunch of junk that is unreliable or even dangerous, and inefficient or ineffective at performing its intended function.

Go diesel, if you are concerned with range. Period. If you just want the advantages (there are many) of electric, and you don't need the range and speed of a diesel, then by all means, come over to the dark side. I love electric, but it isn't for everyone.

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Wednesday, November 29, 2017

[Electric Boats] Re: Introduction

 

If you need long range, you need diesel. On a monohull sailboat, no matter how many solar panels and controllers you can afford, you just can't hang enough of them in a way that they are never shaded by mast and sails, to keep going day and night, or to approach hull speed without depleting batteries. Regen doesn't do much for you, unless your speed under sail is up in the double digits. And honestly, hull speed is not a very realistic electrocruising speed at all. E-boats are generally driven at about half of hull speed, or less, in order to increase range. Push the hull hard, and you reduce your range dramatically. Going fast is cool, but you will only do it when you only need to run the motor for a half hour or so, typically.

Where electric drive really shines is for boats that are SAILED, and only need mechanical propulsion for docking and other maneuvering, such as bridge passages and power tacking. Yup, that's a thing. Since electric power is instantly available with no warmup or startup sequence, if your boat tacks like a pig or your foredeck crew are more hindrance than help, just twist the knob and force her head across the wind. Works great with full keel boats, even. Electric is good also because there is no minimum idle speed. No need to "bump it" in and out of gear. Much easier to steer while making sternway. Or come alongside your finger pier, grab your near side stern line and drop it on the cleat, and come ahead dead dead dead slow against it while you singlehandedly make all your other lines fast. Back into the wind, for really slow approaches to a pumpout station or fuel dock, and crabwalk right in there like you have twin screws or a bow thruster. Once you really learn how to use an e-drive, you will hate docking a diesel boat. And kw/hrs of shore power are cheap. Charge your batts overnight and you are ready for a day trip in the morning.

BUT... there is the range thing. Yeah you can get more batteries, but there is a practical limit. I have a 7600 lb boat and I have about 600 lbs of batteries, more or less, 10.56kw/hrs of storage. If I double that, well, you do the math. I got rid of maybe 450 lbs of engine and fuel tank and assorted associated stuff, but added 600 in batteries and 35 in motor and controller. No biggie, so far. Adding another 600 would not be a deal killer but just finding room for 8 more golf cart batteries is something I have agonized over. Still ANOTHER bank, would be horrible to contemplate, and I would still have less than 32kw/hr of total storage, of which only half would be routinely considered active and usable. You CAN discharge lead acid batteries down to 40% once in a while, and one or two dips to 30% might be acceptable in emergency, but basically, the rule of thumb is 50%  DOD. YMMV. Now I have calculated that under reasonable conditions on Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana's own inland sea, I currently have an absolute range at 1 knot or so of 100nm from 50% DOD. If I double the speed, I don't cut the range in half. I cut it way more than half. At 5kt I probably have a range of 6 or 7 miles. So I can have modest range at very low speed, or I can have good speed with very low range, but not the best of both. Adding enough batteries to make the boat nearly impossible to live on, (I am a liveaboard) would still have me short of being able to electrocruise to Florida. Now since my mast and sails are gone and will never reappear, I can put up a solar canopy over the entire boat, an upcoming project, and possibly crowd as much as 2kw of solar up there. That would possibly give me a round the clock electrocruise speed of maybe 2-1/2kt, I don't know, if the sun shines all day. That's okay, for me. Is it okay for you? And you will be lucky to be able to mount 1/5 that much solar where the sails and rigging never shade them.

It can be a lot cheaper to repower electric, IF you are willing to learn an awful lot about electric and propulsion engineering, and mix and match your own off the shelf components. Or it can be somewhat cheaper to install a beta diesel than to install a full turnkey e-drive system. There is more room for the owner to do the engineering and sourcing and adaptification and installation, thereby reducing total cost, than with diesel. On top of that, most new diesels must be installed by an authorized mechanic, Beta being one exception. So yeah, you can DIY your electric propulsion system. But without a LOT of study and research and good basic knowledge of electricity and electronics and engineering background, you are likely to end up with a bunch of junk that is unreliable or even dangerous, and inefficient or ineffective at performing its intended function.

Go diesel, if you are concerned with range. Period. If you just want the advantages (there are many) of electric, and you don't need the range and speed of a diesel, then by all means, come over to the dark side. I love electric, but it isn't for everyone.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Introduction

 

Hi Bob

Thanks for the insight. I'm drawn to the electric to get away from fossil fuel however safety is paramount. I still think within my lifetime we will see battery and alterative sources exceed the economic justification of fossil. Thanks again.

Phil Cook
MBA CET LEED AP



On Nov 29, 2017, at 8:56 PM, Bob Moriarty moriartybob@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I converted my previous boat, a C&C 33-1, from Atomic 4 to electric auxiliary propulsion.
It was a fun project. I learned a lot.
Hurricane Irma claimed that boat and I now have a Cal 31 with the original Universal diesel engine.
The engine runs great (unlike the A-4) and I have no plans to replace it.
When/if the engine eventually dies, I'm not sure what I'd do. 
Electric was nice for day sailing - getting off and back onto the dock.
My plans are for coastal cruising so diesel is attractive.
To my old ears, the clackety clack of the Universal (sounds like it's running on two cylinders lol) is no more annoying than the whine of the gear reduction in the electric drive train.
Also, for motoring efficiency, electric calls for a bigger prop. The additional drag under sail can be negated by spinning the prop at the speed of the water column. That does not require a lot of energy - sort of an electric folding prop.
Just my 2 watts/volts/liters.

Bob M
Vixen
1979 Cal 31
Universal 5416 diesel
Jax, FL
 


On Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 3:08:32 PM EST, 'Jason (Electric Boats) Taylor' jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

That's about right. Generally, people opt for a 2-hour pack. That is a 10kwh battery for a ~5kw propulsion system. That gives a good day-sailing or weekending performance envelope. Anything further and you are really looking into a serious method of recharging. Lots of solar panels, small genset, etc. 

My boat (just outside Montreal) I have a 1-hour pack (5120wh) for my 5kw propulsion system. The bulk of my sailing is day outings, and racing. I store a 2000w inverter generator on shore for when I will head out for a little cruise. The generator can power the boat to 4kts without touching the battery. 

If you're around Montreal next season, let me know. I love showing the boat as it gives me an excuse to go sailing. 

Cheers,

/Jason

--
Jason Taylor
v:514-815-8204

On Nov 29, 2017, at 08:44, Phil Cook philcook@rogers.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi all
I'm new to the group and am looking at the feasibility of repowering a contessa 26 (that we are refitting) with electric.
I'm a little sceptical about the science and capabilities of electric. Weight and range seem to be of greatest issue. It seems that an hour or two at hull speed is about all one can expect from 6 batteries. 6 batteries seem to be quite a weight penalty and have substantial space and cost variables as well.
I'm interested in everyone's comments. Thoughts?

Phil Cook
MBA CET LEED AP

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Posted by: Phil Cook <philcook@rogers.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Introduction

 

I converted my previous boat, a C&C 33-1, from Atomic 4 to electric auxiliary propulsion.
It was a fun project. I learned a lot.
Hurricane Irma claimed that boat and I now have a Cal 31 with the original Universal diesel engine.
The engine runs great (unlike the A-4) and I have no plans to replace it.
When/if the engine eventually dies, I'm not sure what I'd do. 
Electric was nice for day sailing - getting off and back onto the dock.
My plans are for coastal cruising so diesel is attractive.
To my old ears, the clackety clack of the Universal (sounds like it's running on two cylinders lol) is no more annoying than the whine of the gear reduction in the electric drive train.
Also, for motoring efficiency, electric calls for a bigger prop. The additional drag under sail can be negated by spinning the prop at the speed of the water column. That does not require a lot of energy - sort of an electric folding prop.
Just my 2 watts/volts/liters.

Bob M
Vixen
1979 Cal 31
Universal 5416 diesel
Jax, FL
 


On Wednesday, November 29, 2017, 3:08:32 PM EST, 'Jason (Electric Boats) Taylor' jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

That's about right. Generally, people opt for a 2-hour pack. That is a 10kwh battery for a ~5kw propulsion system. That gives a good day-sailing or weekending performance envelope. Anything further and you are really looking into a serious method of recharging. Lots of solar panels, small genset, etc. 

My boat (just outside Montreal) I have a 1-hour pack (5120wh) for my 5kw propulsion system. The bulk of my sailing is day outings, and racing. I store a 2000w inverter generator on shore for when I will head out for a little cruise. The generator can power the boat to 4kts without touching the battery. 

If you're around Montreal next season, let me know. I love showing the boat as it gives me an excuse to go sailing. 

Cheers,

/Jason

--
Jason Taylor
v:514-815-8204

On Nov 29, 2017, at 08:44, Phil Cook philcook@rogers.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi all
I'm new to the group and am looking at the feasibility of repowering a contessa 26 (that we are refitting) with electric.
I'm a little sceptical about the science and capabilities of electric. Weight and range seem to be of greatest issue. It seems that an hour or two at hull speed is about all one can expect from 6 batteries. 6 batteries seem to be quite a weight penalty and have substantial space and cost variables as well.
I'm interested in everyone's comments. Thoughts?

Phil Cook
MBA CET LEED AP

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Posted by: Bob Moriarty <moriartybob@yahoo.com>
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RE: [Electric Boats] Introduction

 

Thanks Jason,

 

I thought as much. Not sure I'm quite there yet with the concept especially if thinking about doing any passages or dealing with currents over long periods. I will stay tuned though as I feel it is on the horizon.

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 3:07 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Introduction

 

 

That's about right. Generally, people opt for a 2-hour pack. That is a 10kwh battery for a ~5kw propulsion system. That gives a good day-sailing or weekending performance envelope. Anything further and you are really looking into a serious method of recharging. Lots of solar panels, small genset, etc. 

 

My boat (just outside Montreal) I have a 1-hour pack (5120wh) for my 5kw propulsion system. The bulk of my sailing is day outings, and racing. I store a 2000w inverter generator on shore for when I will head out for a little cruise. The generator can power the boat to 4kts without touching the battery. 

 

If you're around Montreal next season, let me know. I love showing the boat as it gives me an excuse to go sailing. 

 

Cheers,

 

/Jason

--

Jason Taylor

v:514-815-8204


On Nov 29, 2017, at 08:44, Phil Cook philcook@rogers.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi all
I'm new to the group and am looking at the feasibility of repowering a contessa 26 (that we are refitting) with electric.
I'm a little sceptical about the science and capabilities of electric. Weight and range seem to be of greatest issue. It seems that an hour or two at hull speed is about all one can expect from 6 batteries. 6 batteries seem to be quite a weight penalty and have substantial space and cost variables as well.
I'm interested in everyone's comments. Thoughts?

Phil Cook
MBA CET LEED AP

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Phil Cook CET MBA LEED AP" <philcook@rogers.com>
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.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Introduction

 

That's about right. Generally, people opt for a 2-hour pack. That is a 10kwh battery for a ~5kw propulsion system. That gives a good day-sailing or weekending performance envelope. Anything further and you are really looking into a serious method of recharging. Lots of solar panels, small genset, etc. 

My boat (just outside Montreal) I have a 1-hour pack (5120wh) for my 5kw propulsion system. The bulk of my sailing is day outings, and racing. I store a 2000w inverter generator on shore for when I will head out for a little cruise. The generator can power the boat to 4kts without touching the battery. 

If you're around Montreal next season, let me know. I love showing the boat as it gives me an excuse to go sailing. 

Cheers,

/Jason

--
Jason Taylor
v:514-815-8204

On Nov 29, 2017, at 08:44, Phil Cook philcook@rogers.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi all
I'm new to the group and am looking at the feasibility of repowering a contessa 26 (that we are refitting) with electric.
I'm a little sceptical about the science and capabilities of electric. Weight and range seem to be of greatest issue. It seems that an hour or two at hull speed is about all one can expect from 6 batteries. 6 batteries seem to be quite a weight penalty and have substantial space and cost variables as well.
I'm interested in everyone's comments. Thoughts?

Phil Cook
MBA CET LEED AP

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Jason (Electric Boats) Taylor" <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca>
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