Sunday, July 31, 2011

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Battery options

 

Ben

I went with separate 12 volt house and 48 volt propulsion bank. I personally did not want all the eggs in one basket. I will use the 48 volt bank to power some 12 volt items like my laptop but, find the sevcon converter gets rather warm with extended use and is only about 85% efficient. Not a problem if you are at a dock with AC available but, out at anchor it can eat a lot of amps if you are feeding the 12 house wiring with it for an extend stay away from the dock. Something you might want to consider.

Capt. Mike

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From: Ben Okopnik <ben@linuxgazette.net>
Sender: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:06:37 -0400
To: <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Battery options

 

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 06:46:06PM -0000, Eric wrote:
> If you're committed to a large house bank, then I think that you'll get better performance from the 4Ds.

It certainly seems that there's a net benefit to all the lead being in
one place; that makes sense.

> But on my boat, I pulled the house bank out altogether. The plan is to run the house loads off of the traction bank, using a DC to DC converter. Using a converter with 300W of 13.2V output gives more than 20A of house capability. I've also addded a 32Ah AGM to act as a buffer against peak loads and to provide power when the traction batteries and converter are shut down completely. I have to admit that my boat electrical is fairly minimal, no TV, no A/C, no microwave, etc. so my electric head is my highest demand (16A) and that's only for a few seconds at a time. The lights and the tillerpilot draw much less. Right now the little AGM is my only 12V power source and it works well for day trips. I want to add the converter before I spend a long weekend at Catalina with this boat.
>
> With that setup, I've only got one charger (48V) and I can run that from shorepower or my portable Yamaha EF2000iS generator. I'm just trying to simplify my systems....

Hmm. Well, I'm having to build my system up from the other side: the
only "house bank" it has aboard is a single, rather small battery (the
previous owner only used the boat for racing; it clearly always sat at a
dock.) Given that I'm living aboard, that's got to get resolved
*soonest*: I'm having to run the generator most of the day, every day,
since even using the lights (all incandescents... I feel like I'm living
in the 13th century or something :) drains that battery in short order.
The only trick is going to be finding the 4Ds around here (NYC area):
the delivery charges on heavy stuff like that are insane.

Thanks for your advice, Eric!

--
Ben Okopnik
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Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 


A 10KW is not going to be big enough for you. I have a 41 Seawolf and have the same motor as Pitt from Electric Yacht. There is a guy in Australia who has a Thoosa 17000 on his Formosa. I looked into that as the 9000 wasn't powerful enough, but after careful deliberation went with the 360lib from EY. From what I know us three are the only 41 Bill Garden boats that are electric in the world.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Brian Misner <bsmisner@...> wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
> Relatively new myself, but from what I've learned so far, finding a drive
> motor and controller won't be a problem. The challenge is in the
> batteries. You need to determine what range you need, under power, to get
> out, get back in and for any other challenges that might arise. You always
> have the option of a hybrid in the way of a generator to charge while under
> way for the long stretches. I'm sure many others will have a lot more info.
>
> Good luck and fair winds!
>
> Brian
>
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 2:49 PM, justin johnson <justrayj@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii. I am the
> > owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch. The original 50hp diesel
> > motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement. I am really drawn
> > to the quieter operation of an electric drive. In addition many of the
> > outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels.
> >
> > I am very confident installing a system myself. However I am new to this
> > format and still learning. Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.
> >
> > FYI 39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel, It is
> > necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.
> >
> > Justin
> >
> >
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

Justin,


We are introducing a new 10 KW electric drive which would work well for your boat.

It is based on the Perm 156W motor, at 92% efficiency, this is one of the most powerful and efficient motors in its class.

Additionally it is water cooled, so will run cooler, which also adds to efficiency under load.   The Perm 156 W is a dual stator, permanent magnet, brushless, 3 phase AC motor.

The drive will feature the Sevcon Gen 4 controller with Clearview display.   The Clearview display will output the motor volts, amps, rpm, temperature and torque, the controller temperature and the battery voltage.  

The motor will be coupled to a Browning Heavy Duty Gearbox capable of 550 pounds of continuous thrust.   

It will run on two 48 volt battery packs (8 batteries) to keep currents below 100 amps per battery pack, switched with two contactors.    A third contactor will switch a water cooling pump based on the winding temperature of the motor.

Release information on this new electric drive will be posted on the Propulsion Marine Website or you can contact me directly on my cell at 805 455 8444.    

We will also be releasing a new 48 volt DC generator, a new 48 volt joystick operated solar pole, and a new 48 volt battery bank equalizer, a 48 volt watermaker, and a new 48 volt windlass lineup.    

Regards,


James


Propulsion Marine Products by

Above the Waterline, Ltd.
6 Harbor Way # 226,
Santa Barbara, CA
93109

805 455 8444







On Jul 31, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Sally Reuther wrote:

 

Hi Justin,

Welcome!  Since you are in Hawaii, you might want to get in touch with the ASMO Marine distributor there. His name is Ken Harrington and he is in Maui. Here is his contact info:



Be sure to look at all of the options available. You're boat is not out of the range of electric propulsion, but you may need to alter your thinking a bit about how motoring on your boat works. It's a great way to go, and I am sure you will love it.

Sally

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Capt. Mike <biankablog@verizon.net> wrote:
 

Justin:

Welcome. I converted to EP using an ASMO MARINE THOOSA 9000 system four years ago. My boat is 30 foot has an 11 foot beam and weighs 16,000 pounds. So you should be able to find a system that fits your boat.

Capt. Mike

Sent from on board BIANKA
http://biankablog.blogspot.com

From: justin johnson <justrayj@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:49:13 -1000
Subject: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin





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Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

Hi Justin,

Welcome!  Since you are in Hawaii, you might want to get in touch with the ASMO Marine distributor there. His name is Ken Harrington and he is in Maui. Here is his contact info:



Be sure to look at all of the options available. You're boat is not out of the range of electric propulsion, but you may need to alter your thinking a bit about how motoring on your boat works. It's a great way to go, and I am sure you will love it.

Sally

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Capt. Mike <biankablog@verizon.net> wrote:
 

Justin:

Welcome. I converted to EP using an ASMO MARINE THOOSA 9000 system four years ago. My boat is 30 foot has an 11 foot beam and weighs 16,000 pounds. So you should be able to find a system that fits your boat.

Capt. Mike

Sent from on board BIANKA
http://biankablog.blogspot.com

From: justin johnson <justrayj@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:49:13 -1000
Subject: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin


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Saturday, July 30, 2011

Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

Justin,
 
Relatively new myself, but from what I've learned so far,  finding a drive motor and controller won't be a problem.  The challenge is in the batteries.  You need to determine what range you need, under power,  to get out, get back in and for any other challenges that might arise.  You always have the option of a hybrid in the way of a generator to charge while under way for the long stretches.  I'm sure many others will have a lot more info.
 
Good luck and fair winds!
 
Brian

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 2:49 PM, justin johnson <justrayj@gmail.com> wrote:
 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin


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Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

Justin:

Welcome. I converted to EP using an ASMO MARINE THOOSA 9000 system four years ago. My boat is 30 foot has an 11 foot beam and weighs 16,000 pounds. So you should be able to find a system that fits your boat.

Capt. Mike

Sent from on board BIANKA
http://biankablog.blogspot.com

From: justin johnson <justrayj@gmail.com>
Sender: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:49:13 -1000
To: <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin

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Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

Myself and another -  Pitt Bolinate -in this group have the same boats (mines a seawolf 1974 ). We both have Electric Yacht's 360lib in our boats.  He has 520Ah or so of Lithium powering his and I have 320Ah of the same.  Our boats are pushing the envelope but hey who needs that last 15 HP on your ICE anyway.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2011, at 2:49 PM, justin johnson <justrayj@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin

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Re: [Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

Hi Justin,

I have also a Formosa 41. I have an Electric Yacht 360ibi system. I did install myself, it's fantastic. Give Scott a call at EY and you cannot go wrong.

Pitt Bolinate

e.v KharmaSeas

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 30, 2011, at 14:49, justin johnson <justrayj@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin

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Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Aloha from Hawaii

 

I am new to your site and coming to you from Honolulu Hawaii.  I am the owner of a Formosa CT41, a 45' sailing ketch.  The original 50hp diesel motor has failed and it is time to choose a replacement.  I am really drawn to the quieter operation of an electric drive.  In addition many of the outer islands in the chain do not allow the use of fossil fuels. 

I am very confident installing a system myself.  However I am new to this format and still learning.  Any suggenstion or comments are very welcome.

FYI  39" at the water line 45' overall, 12' beam 9,000lb full keel,  It is necessary to navigate about a mile of a narrow channel to get to open water.

Justin

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: WFCO converters

 

Chargers or power supplies have a maximum rating just like motors do. A system with oversized components do in fact work at lower power levels. To confirm this all one needs to do is go out with less than a fully charged battery bank and start the 2k generator and put the motor in the circuit. continue increasing the load till the genny chokes (and it will).

The fact that one can use a 2k generator to get home, or extend distance of travel without sitting at a recharge station is a big plus, but it must be realised that a 2k genny is the weak link. If needed it will limit the design of the system.

That said any charging system that will not fail while being used as a power supply, is an option for our use. even though this option may require a larger generator to keep it from being the weak link in the system. It only demands that the operator use common sence while using the generator added only to extend the trip, not to be part of the system.

An example of this is seen on my Motor home. I have installed a 1hp shallow well pump to replace the cheap system that was original. This change is the result of my research into hybrid systems. This pump is supplied power from the house batteries through an inverter. My 2k inverter generator is rated to supply 1600w (no it's not a Honda). If the batteries are at 60% and the water pump is turned on the inverter in the genny trips and must be restarted. The inverter is sized with the genny in mind.  If the batteries are at 70% or above the genny handles the full load. When the batteries are charged to the point the 3rd stage is working (float charge), the genny is idling then goes full bore while the pump fills the accumulator.

The Major problem with using an RV product on a boat is the lack of protection from the elements.  They don't pot these products nor house them to keep water or mist out of them as they do on marine products.  Because they are not used as intended, it is likely the warranty is void, so mods are an option.  They can be mounted in a water tight enclosure in a fashion that places the heat sink on the outside of the enclosure, disassembly will be required, but hey if they will do the job where other products are weak, or to high in price, then the option is attractive. Add to this that if a 12v product can be ganged so a bank of 48v can be charged, you have a winner.

Kevin Pemberton


On 07/26/2011 12:12 PM, Eric wrote:

 

Hi Arby,

Since I'm always interested in better solutions, I did a little research into the WFCO converters that you mentioned. I just want to clarify some info. The WF9855 converter is rated for 55A @ 14.4V (bulk) which works out to 792W. WFCO says that the converter pulls 12A @ 115VAC which is 1380W. They also say that they pull 950W @ 115VAC which is only 8.2A, so I don't know how much AC current is actually required to run the converter.

In any case, I'm surprised that you can run 2 WF9855 converters on a single Honda 2000 generator, even the low number of 16.4A (8.2A x 2) exceeds the 13.3A (1600W) continuous rating provided by Honda and pretty close to the 16.7A (2000W) maximum rating. I do know that the Honda and Yamaha generators can be somewhat overloaded, but pulling a consistent 3A over the continuous rating seems dicey to me. But, seeing is believing, and if you've seen it done, then maybe the specs provided by WFCO don't tell the whole story.

On my boat, the Elcon PFC2000+ charger works fine as a power supply. It has a large integral heat sink and a built in cooling fan. The charger provides a consistant 28A @ 54VDC (bulk) and if I remember correctly, has programming that will end the bulk phase when the power provided exceeds 2 times the total AH rating of the battery bank. In my case that's about 12 hours.

But I'm getting over 1500W of power coming out of the charger. The manufacturer says that the charger will pull 15A @ 115VAC (1725W) and 14A nominal (1610W). I've measured the draw with a Kill-a-Watt meter and the charger was pulling 14A @ 120VAC (1680W). Like your setup, the 14A exceeds Yamaha's continuous 1600W rating of 13.3A, but not by as much. I've run the charger at full bore from the generator for 90 minutes and everything was working fine, so I understand that ratings are sometimes conservative.

To summarize:
WFCO WF9855 (x2), output 55A @ 28.8VDC (1584W), input 16.4A @ 115VAC (1886W)
Elcon PFC2000+, output 28A @ 54VDC (1512W), input 14A @ 120VAC (1680W)

I don't see that the WFCO converters provide significantly more DC power than the Elcon (only 4.5% less output) but the Elcon takes 11% less AC current to do it.

So I wouldn't say that ALL chargers can't be used as power supplies, but I do agree that many chargers, like the Dual Pro, are not built for that duty. Certainly, the Elcon looks to be more efficient than the WFCO and therefore, has a litle more than half the heat to dissipate. I've checked and the Elcon is only warm, not hot, to the touch after more than 4 hours of bulk charging, while attached to shorepower. The charger is mounted flat against a plywood bulkhead.

I've confirmed the specs on the Elcon with my own instrumentation, I'd like to see someone verify the WFCO figures.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Arby bernt <arbybernt@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Ben,
> While I can understand WFCO's position...
We've installed a bunch of them now, and have had great results. One boat has two 55a 900w converters which have been run for many hours off a 2kw Honda with no problem. I have yet to see a charger that can deliver that kind of current, save a forklift charging station. While 20a from Zivan might be fine for a little bump, it won't get you out of a jamb when you need real power. The 55a units I use in lab testing (paralleled with 100Ah batteries) have run for weeks with no problems. They keep the batteries charged up just fine when idle....
>
> I look forward to your reply.
> Be Well,Arby
> 



--  AspireOne Netbook running Ubuntu 11.04 Safe, Secure, Easy to use, Free Open Source Linux OS. Leaving Virus worries to the Windows Users!

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Friday, July 29, 2011

Re: [Electric Boats] Battery options

 

Hi, Bill -

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 02:15:13PM -0400, Bill wrote:
>
> The Northstar AGMs are similar in weight and generally in costs. The "foot
> print" is nice since they are on 5" wide.

Darn, their form factor just happens to be wrong for my battery
compartment: anything that's not too big is a bad fit (i.e., low fill
ratio for the compartment.) Oh well - thanks for the recommendation!

> Something to consider. I have 2 for my house bank and will have 6 for my
> propulsion bank once completed (72v).

They do seem to have pretty decent power density, size for amps.

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Re: [Electric Boats] Battery options

 

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 09:16:04PM +0000, Capt. Mike wrote:
>
> Ben:
>
> I used AGM 4D's for my propulsion bank. Love not having to carry distilled
> water on board anymore. I think you made a good choice.

Well, given that the boat design has them sitting under the bed in the
aft cabin, I wasn't all that excited about having to smell the
electrolyte, or take special care to vent the hydrogen when charging. :)

Thanks for the advice, Cap'n Mike!

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Battery options

 

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 06:46:06PM -0000, Eric wrote:
> If you're committed to a large house bank, then I think that you'll get better performance from the 4Ds.

It certainly seems that there's a net benefit to all the lead being in
one place; that makes sense.

> But on my boat, I pulled the house bank out altogether. The plan is to run the house loads off of the traction bank, using a DC to DC converter. Using a converter with 300W of 13.2V output gives more than 20A of house capability. I've also addded a 32Ah AGM to act as a buffer against peak loads and to provide power when the traction batteries and converter are shut down completely. I have to admit that my boat electrical is fairly minimal, no TV, no A/C, no microwave, etc. so my electric head is my highest demand (16A) and that's only for a few seconds at a time. The lights and the tillerpilot draw much less. Right now the little AGM is my only 12V power source and it works well for day trips. I want to add the converter before I spend a long weekend at Catalina with this boat.
>
> With that setup, I've only got one charger (48V) and I can run that from shorepower or my portable Yamaha EF2000iS generator. I'm just trying to simplify my systems....

Hmm. Well, I'm having to build my system up from the other side: the
only "house bank" it has aboard is a single, rather small battery (the
previous owner only used the boat for racing; it clearly always sat at a
dock.) Given that I'm living aboard, that's got to get resolved
*soonest*: I'm having to run the generator most of the day, every day,
since even using the lights (all incandescents... I feel like I'm living
in the 13th century or something :) drains that battery in short order.
The only trick is going to be finding the 4Ds around here (NYC area):
the delivery charges on heavy stuff like that are insane.

Thanks for your advice, Eric!

--
Ben Okopnik
-=-=-=-=-=-

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[Electric Boats] Minn Kota Trolling motor.

 

Hi.
Does anyone know max. rpm for Minn Kota Engine mount?.

Victor

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