Re: [electricboats] All in all : Material Choices, Thrust Bearings, System Reliability and Labelling of Wiring

I found a video showing how to change out the bearing insert in the flange housings that Egbert suggested.  Now I see how it all goes together and can transfers axial loads.    It all makes sense now. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jG52W5U_Cs

Here's a short video with a fellow describing a 4-bolt version of these bearings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rLP-p4R3pg

Of note is the detail of the self aligning nature of the bearings (at about the 40 second mark).   This makes these bearings great for an installation where the mounting is not properly square to the shaft - within 3 or 5 degrees I think.

On a setup with a toothed belt reduction gear like I am planning (Which is equivalent to Thunderstruck in configuration) I think this may not work.  If the shaft goes off axis as the bearing allows it to do it will make the driven toothed belt pulley tilt out of alignment with the motor pulley.  That will be a problem for the belt.  I think rigid alignment between the pulleys of the toothed belt reduction drive is important.  Otherwise the belt may walk off the pulley or if it is a pulley with a lip  at the rim it will start to chew up the belt at the edge.   It seems like any configuration that lets the shaft with the toothed belt pulley go off axis is a problem.  And having that freedom to go off axis means getting the reduction gear assembly aligned to the prop shaft while at the same time keeping the toothed belt gear pulleys in alignment will be more difficult.   Seems to me the toothed belt pulleys need to be rigidly mounted which means the thrust bearing cannot have this spherical freedom or movement even if it is slight. 

Having another point where the shaft is supported radially would solve that problem?  Maybe the cutlass bearing provides that support.  But that's a bit flexible.  But that doesn't address the alignment difficulty to the prop shaft created by the freedom of the bearing to rotate spherically in the housing.  Seems to me if you want a system that is tolerant of axial misalignment that has to happen at the coupling between the prop shaft and the drive output.  


This is also interesting (at 1.5x speed) with regard to choosing bearings for reliability in axial and radial load: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0wQHcYSSU
I am not an engineer or an engineering student but I learned a couple things from it. 


Thanks,

Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2021-03-31 6:55 pm, Dan Pfeiffer wrote:

For these very nice bearings that Egbert found, how are they retained in the housing?   It looks like just a press fit with no shoulder on either side and I don't see any set screws on the housing (just on the bearing to hold to the shaft).  So what transfers the axial load to the housing?  The bearing may be rated for the load but the load has to be transferred to the housing somehow?  I also see these housings in a 3-bolt of 4-bolt flange which might be a more robust choice.   Also is stainless as pointless as that may be.
https://www.kugellager-express.de/all-flange-bearing-housing-units


Thanks,

Dan Pfeiffer

 

On Thursday, 1 April 2021, 01:13:16 GMT+8, Egbert Van popta <motorstunter@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

I looked at the specs of the ucfl bearing at the skf site and did the math. The axial load range is more than sufficient for my 12kw motor. Radial load 15kn of which 20% can be used as axial load force. It's not a huge margin, but as it is a very cheap and easy to change bearing I'm happy with that. On this site they weirdly enough don't mention the 20% axial load , but they give tips to increase the axial load capability. 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/flange-housing-unit-ucfl207-shaft-35-mm

 

On the end of this written piece they link to plummer block housings with spherical bearings. Isn't this what you are looking for?

 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/split-pillow-block-housings

 

Egbert

_._,_._,_

---

Re: [electricboats] All in all : Material Choices, Thrust Bearings, System Reliability and Labelling of Wiring

Dan, please call the relevant bearing and housing companies.

I'm sure that they will help you with specific details of your needs.

If you find the perfect setup for you, please do share it with us ;-)

On Thursday, 1 April 2021, 09:42:02 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

Carsten,

You suggested this very good thread from boatdesign.net:

>>I found an old thread in boatdesign.net. Please see reply #6 from the honorable Mike Johns:
>>https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/smaller-vessel-thrust-bearings.46072/

In that comment Mike Johns said this:
-----
It would be nice to find a commercial bearing housing for two
tapered roller bearings and seals. But there are only the high
end marketed products mentioned before and they are
probably not much better than the spherical roller bearing.
-----

Seems to me Mike Johns is implying a housing with two tapered roller bearings would be what he would like to use.  ZF uses tapered roller bearings in their small boat transmissions (e.g. ZF 25).

Question:
Isn't the trailer hub a housing for two tapered roller bearings and seals?  

I tried to track down Mike Johns to ask him if he had thoughts about a trailer hub like this.  No luck though.  He has not been on the boatdsesign list since last year.  But holding the hub in my hands it seems like a quite robust bit of gear.  Easily as robust as the Walter V-drive my boat came with.  However I do wish the bearings in the hub were the same size and the shaft to fit them could be more like 30 or 35mm.  It could with a larger hub but then you have to start with an even larger blank for the shaft. 

Also, an issue with any of these bearings is a housing to keep the lubricant in.  What do you think of a sealed bearing in this application?   Are there sealed versions of the spherical roller bearing you like?  I can't find any and I would suspect no because a seal would not be conducive to the spherical motion of the bearing.   So then a housing is need with seals.   And to handle all those torsion forces and misalignments you speak of what sort of seals would be needed? 

Here is a sealed double roller angular contact ball bearing:
https://intechbearing.com/products/5207-2rs-2-row-angular-contact-ball-bearing
https://www.kugellager-express.de/angular-ball-bearing-5207-2rs-tn-3207-2rs-tn-35x72x27-mm

This is of the same type used in my Walter v-drive for the thrust bearing but larger and in a sealed version.  It should be more than adequate for the load (as the smaller one in the v-drive has been for 43 years).  Would this be a possible choice if a suitable housing could be found or made?   The bearing is rated for 6000 rpm and would see no more than 1000 in a small boat application so that seems like light duty for RPM. 

For these very nice bearings that Egbert found, how are they retained in the housing?   It looks like just a press fit with no shoulder on either side and I don't see any set screws on the housing (just on the bearing to hold to the shaft).  So what transfers the axial load to the housing?  The bearing may be rated for the load but the load has to be transferred to the housing somehow?  I also see these housings in a 3-bolt of 4-bolt flange which might be a more robust choice.   Also is stainless as pointless as that may be.
https://www.kugellager-express.de/all-flange-bearing-housing-units


Thanks,

Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2021-03-31 3:24 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:

 

Thanks for the housing link, Egbert !

 

I still would go for a double spherical roller bearing solution (not a ball bearing), as it is much more flexible to absorb torsion forces and misalignments, so no trailer hub solution for me.

 

Personally, I should also consider the life span of the system when converting my saildrive, or change to shaft drive.

I'm not young, and my sailing days may be limited to 5-15 years, knock, knock, knock.

(My back hurts today, ouch...)

So, boat value is an issue.

I don't want to save 300$ now, just to devaluate my boat with 3000$.

I want to make a bullet proof design, that can convince a buyer too.

 

If it is just you that will sail the boat until it (or you) is scrapped, then no problem. Then anything goes.

But when selling in a good manner, it is why a good overall mechanically reliable design, and a good labelling of voltages and cable arrangements becomes important.

A transparent and easily understood system layout convinces a buyer, that the DIY conversion has been done with care and mind. Let that be a document following the boat or a throughout good labelling (or both).

 

In hope of your understanding of my poor english...

 

Cheers, guys

Carsten

 

On Thursday, 1 April 2021, 01:13:16 GMT+8, Egbert Van popta <motorstunter@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

I looked at the specs of the ucfl bearing at the skf site and did the math. The axial load range is more than sufficient for my 12kw motor. Radial load 15kn of which 20% can be used as axial load force. It's not a huge margin, but as it is a very cheap and easy to change bearing I'm happy with that. On this site they weirdly enough don't mention the 20% axial load , but they give tips to increase the axial load capability. 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/flange-housing-unit-ucfl207-shaft-35-mm

 

On the end of this written piece they link to plummer block housings with spherical bearings. Isn't this what you are looking for?

 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/split-pillow-block-housings

 

Egbert

Re: [electricboats] All in all : Material Choices, Thrust Bearings, System Reliability and Labelling of Wiring

Carsten,

You suggested this very good thread from boatdesign.net:

>>I found an old thread in boatdesign.net. Please see reply #6 from the honorable Mike Johns:
>>https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/smaller-vessel-thrust-bearings.46072/

In that comment Mike Johns said this:
-----
It would be nice to find a commercial bearing housing for two
tapered roller bearings and seals. But there are only the high
end marketed products mentioned before and they are
probably not much better than the spherical roller bearing.
-----

Seems to me Mike Johns is implying a housing with two tapered roller bearings would be what he would like to use.  ZF uses tapered roller bearings in their small boat transmissions (e.g. ZF 25).

Question:
Isn't the trailer hub a housing for two tapered roller bearings and seals?  

I tried to track down Mike Johns to ask him if he had thoughts about a trailer hub like this.  No luck though.  He has not been on the boatdsesign list since last year.  But holding the hub in my hands it seems like a quite robust bit of gear.  Easily as robust as the Walter V-drive my boat came with.  However I do wish the bearings in the hub were the same size and the shaft to fit them could be more like 30 or 35mm.  It could with a larger hub but then you have to start with an even larger blank for the shaft. 

Also, an issue with any of these bearings is a housing to keep the lubricant in.  What do you think of a sealed bearing in this application?   Are there sealed versions of the spherical roller bearing you like?  I can't find any and I would suspect no because a seal would not be conducive to the spherical motion of the bearing.   So then a housing is need with seals.   And to handle all those torsion forces and misalignments you speak of what sort of seals would be needed? 

Here is a sealed double roller angular contact ball bearing:
https://intechbearing.com/products/5207-2rs-2-row-angular-contact-ball-bearing
https://www.kugellager-express.de/angular-ball-bearing-5207-2rs-tn-3207-2rs-tn-35x72x27-mm

This is of the same type used in my Walter v-drive for the thrust bearing but larger and in a sealed version.  It should be more than adequate for the load (as the smaller one in the v-drive has been for 43 years).  Would this be a possible choice if a suitable housing could be found or made?   The bearing is rated for 6000 rpm and would see no more than 1000 in a small boat application so that seems like light duty for RPM. 

For these very nice bearings that Egbert found, how are they retained in the housing?   It looks like just a press fit with no shoulder on either side and I don't see any set screws on the housing (just on the bearing to hold to the shaft).  So what transfers the axial load to the housing?  The bearing may be rated for the load but the load has to be transferred to the housing somehow?  I also see these housings in a 3-bolt of 4-bolt flange which might be a more robust choice.   Also is stainless as pointless as that may be.
https://www.kugellager-express.de/all-flange-bearing-housing-units


Thanks,

Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2021-03-31 3:24 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:

 

Thanks for the housing link, Egbert !

 

I still would go for a double spherical roller bearing solution (not a ball bearing), as it is much more flexible to absorb torsion forces and misalignments, so no trailer hub solution for me.

 

Personally, I should also consider the life span of the system when converting my saildrive, or change to shaft drive.

I'm not young, and my sailing days may be limited to 5-15 years, knock, knock, knock.

(My back hurts today, ouch...)

So, boat value is an issue.

I don't want to save 300$ now, just to devaluate my boat with 3000$.

I want to make a bullet proof design, that can convince a buyer too.

 

If it is just you that will sail the boat until it (or you) is scrapped, then no problem. Then anything goes.

But when selling in a good manner, it is why a good overall mechanically reliable design, and a good labelling of voltages and cable arrangements becomes important.

A transparent and easily understood system layout convinces a buyer, that the DIY conversion has been done with care and mind. Let that be a document following the boat or a throughout good labelling (or both).

 

In hope of your understanding of my poor english...

 

Cheers, guys

Carsten

 

On Thursday, 1 April 2021, 01:13:16 GMT+8, Egbert Van popta <motorstunter@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

I looked at the specs of the ucfl bearing at the skf site and did the math. The axial load range is more than sufficient for my 12kw motor. Radial load 15kn of which 20% can be used as axial load force. It's not a huge margin, but as it is a very cheap and easy to change bearing I'm happy with that. On this site they weirdly enough don't mention the 20% axial load , but they give tips to increase the axial load capability. 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/flange-housing-unit-ucfl207-shaft-35-mm

 

On the end of this written piece they link to plummer block housings with spherical bearings. Isn't this what you are looking for?

 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/split-pillow-block-housings

 

Egbert

[electricboats] All in all : Material Choices, Thrust Bearings, System Reliability and Labelling of Wiring

Thanks for the housing link, Egbert !

I still would go for a double spherical roller bearing solution (not a ball bearing), as it is much more flexible to absorb torsion forces and misalignments, so no trailer hub solution for me.

Personally, I should also consider the life span of the system when converting my saildrive, or change to shaft drive.

I'm not young, and my sailing days may be limited to 5-15 years, knock, knock, knock.

(My back hurts today, ouch...)

So, boat value is an issue.

I don't want to save 300$ now, just to devaluate my boat with 3000$.

I want to make a bullet proof design, that can convince a buyer too.

If it is just you that will sail the boat until it (or you) is scrapped, then no problem. Then anything goes.

But when selling in a good manner, it is why a good overall mechanically reliable design, and a good labelling of voltages and cable arrangements becomes important.

A transparent and easily understood system layout convinces a buyer, that the DIY conversion has been done with care and mind. Let that be a document following the boat or a throughout good labelling (or both).

In hope of your understanding of my poor english...

Cheers, guys

Carsten

On Thursday, 1 April 2021, 01:13:16 GMT+8, Egbert Van popta <motorstunter@gmail.com> wrote:

I looked at the specs of the ucfl bearing at the skf site and did the math. The axial load range is more than sufficient for my 12kw motor. Radial load 15kn of which 20% can be used as axial load force. It's not a huge margin, but as it is a very cheap and easy to change bearing I'm happy with that. On this site they weirdly enough don't mention the 20% axial load , but they give tips to increase the axial load capability. 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/flange-housing-unit-ucfl207-shaft-35-mm

On the end of this written piece they link to plummer block housings with spherical bearings. Isn't this what you are looking for?

https://www.kugellager-express.de/split-pillow-block-housings

Egbert

Re: [electricboats] Question about bus bar safety

I had a FITALY keyboard on my ok'd Windows smart phones. It was never pitted to IOS. 

On Mar 29, 2021, at 3:00 PM, Daniel Michaels via groups.io <nov32394=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



A general warning at the electrical panel stating that "This boat has 12 and 48 volt buss bars.

Dan

On Monday, March 29, 2021, 12:27:51 PM MDT, Mike hurley via groups.io <redwood1957=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Seams as if there should be color codes for ac/ DC48 and dc12 for pos/ and neg

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM, Ryan Sweet

<ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Typo, hopefully obvious

"48v or 12v"

Why do we still use asdf keyboard layouts on thumb driven mobile phones? Sigh.

> On Mar 27, 2021, at 10:57, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:

>

> For those of you that have 12v systems and 48v systems, is there a standard or convention for making it really clear that a given bus bar is 48v or 12c?

>

> Mine are in very different places in the boat and I've taken to putting plastic covers over the top and then taping really big labels on them and updating the drawings kept on board (still I'm trying to think of someone working on the boat with no drawing and no history of the installation etc). I know they could and should check with the multimeter but I also feel an obligation to protect a future diy boat owner from themselves if they fail to do that. Hence, wondering if there is some convention.

>

>

>

>

Re: Ang.:Re: [electricboats] Material Choices and Thrust Bearings

I looked at the specs of the ucfl bearing at the skf site and did the math. The axial load range is more than sufficient for my 12kw motor. Radial load 15kn of which 20% can be used as axial load force. It's not a huge margin, but as it is a very cheap and easy to change bearing I'm happy with that. On this site they weirdly enough don't mention the 20% axial load , but they give tips to increase the axial load capability. 

https://www.kugellager-express.de/flange-housing-unit-ucfl207-shaft-35-mm

On the end of this written piece they link to plummer block housings with spherical bearings. Isn't this what you are looking for?

https://www.kugellager-express.de/split-pillow-block-housings

Egbert 

On Mon, 29 Mar 2021, 17:06 Dan Pfeiffer, <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

Great info in that thread from Boatdesign.net but no conclusions for smaller vessels (<12T).   Most of the links in the thread are old and go to 404.  But still useful stuff.

This stood out in the Mike Johns reply #6:
-----
It would be nice to find a commercial bearing housing for two
tapered roller bearings and seals. But there are only the high
end marketed products mentioned before and they are
probably not much better than the spherical roller bearing.
-----

Isn't the trailer hub a housing for two tapered roller bearings and seals? 


With regard to the double spherical roller bearing, if there is a suitable sized sealed version and a suitable housing could be found would this be a reasonable choice?  We are talking about RPM max of about 1000.  Will the sealed version hold up for this application?  

Or maybe the double angular contact bearing like what is in my V-drive would be a good choice.  I do see those in sealed versions.  Like this:
https://www.astbearings.com/catalog/double_row_ang_cont_bearing/5208-2RS

If the axial load capacity on this is .5x the static load rating (as I saw referenced for deep groove ball bearings) then this 5208 is good for about 3500lbs.  Even at .3x its at 2200lbs which should be about a 4x margin with a 12kW motor?  It would not be difficult to make a housing block for one of these from aluminum.  I am thinking at least 1/2" of meat in the aluminum. How would that compare to an aluminum cased transmission like a ZF for strength?  They are housing thrust bearings in aluminum cases after all.  Here is a typical example:
https://www.fredwarner.net/product/zf-15m-1-91-marine-boat-transmission-gearbox-hurth-hbw150-3306002004/


These ucfl 207 bearing look interesting but that flange does not look like it holds/retains the bearing for thrust loads.  Maybe some of them do.  They need to in both directions or you need two of them, one on each side of the mounting plate.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ucfl+207+bearing&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiG0fb3hNHvAhXQU80KHd0uAkQQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1920&bih=955


I'll give the machining of the shaft a try.  I'll let you know how it goes.  From my experience with this lathe I think it is up to the task.  It is not a typical wee hobbyist machine.  I tend to be quite conservative in depth of cut.  And it's not that large a piece. 


Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2021-03-27 10:12 am, Carsten via groups.io wrote:

 

The double spherical roller bearing from grainger looks fine.

Even a smaller bearing than the shown will be fine for your 12KW motor...

 

I found an old thread in boatdesign.net. Please see reply #6 from the honorable Mike Johns:

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/smaller-vessel-thrust-bearings.46072/

 

I guess not feasible to make housings, when they already exist.

In the above thread, there are suggestions for housings too.

If in doubt, call SKF tech. dept. They are actually nice guys !

For ease of lubrication, they make these bearings in sealed versions too.

 

I would be happy by fixing the housing to the base plate properly aligned with shims (or ChockFast), and thus avoid a flexible coupling. (The belt drive should be flexible enough in itself.)

However, it takes a sturdy design of frame and base plate.

 

In my case, I will first try to modify my old saildrive to avoid a change to shaft drive (hellofwork).

 

Dan, from your photo, your lathe seems to be underpowered for this kind of shaft turning, IMHO.

 

 

On Friday, 26 March 2021, 23:07:08 GMT+8, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

 

 

Some more on thrust bearing specifications...

My boat came with a Volvo 23HP diesel and a Walter RV-10D v-drive that contained the thrust bearing.   The Walter RV-10 is specified for 2HP/100rpm or 48hp at 2400 (the max RPM on the Volvo).  So that's about double the capacity needed with the Volvo.  The thrust bearing in the unit can be seen in this drawing.  It is part number 15 (sorry for the silly long link...). 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.moyermarineforum.com%2Fforums%2F%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D14693%26d%3D1575224869&psig=AOvVaw3BxXBt2iXbDdDJ4lHXYFXj&ust=1616798626542000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOj3l7LCzO8CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAJ

It is a double row angular contact ball bearing type 5304.  

The bearings in the trailer hub I have been considering are L68149 and L44649 tapered roller bearings.  

I found some load specs on all these bearings in this document:
https://blog.misumiusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/NSK_CAT_E1103_partC_Ball_Bearings.pdf

Basic Load Ratings (radial)
   type   -               Cr              -        C0r
  5304  - 24,600N (5530lbs) -  15,000N (3372lbs)     v-drive
68149   - 35,000N (7868lbs)  - 47,000 (10,566lbs) trailer hub large
44649  -  27,600 (6204lbs)  -   32,000 (7193lbs) trailer hub small

The second figure is a static load rating. 

I also found this regarding axial loads in deep groove ball bearings:
http://www.rbcbearings.com/ballbearings/axial.htm

Deep groove ball bearings by nature of their design can
carry axial loads either alone or in combination with radial
loads. Axial load capacity of standard bearings is 0.5 times
the Basic Static Load Rating, C_O of that bearing. Smaller
bearings should not be subject to a load greater than
0.25 times C_O. Excessive axial loads can lead to serious
reduction of bearing


I am not sure how all this relates to the bearings in the trailer hub or v-drive but I am thinking the bearings in the trailer hub are at least as strong as the bearing in my v-drive.   The trailer bearings are tapered roller bearings which I think are supposed to be better suited than the ball bearings for axial loads?  I don't know if that makes the trailer hub assembly a reasonable thrust bearing or not.  But at least the bearings are up to the task?   And from this is it possible that the trailer hub is actually stronger as a thrust bearing unit than the v-drive that was running in my boat for 43 years?     I am sure there is more to it all than that.  But there are some numbers to consider. 

But, another relevant consideration with the comparison between the angular contact bearings (v-drive) and tapered bearings (trailer hub) is friction.  The angular contact are lower friction and in a housing set up to run in oil rather than grease (my v drive is filled with 30wt oil) maybe they would be a better choice with less power lost between the electric motor and the prop.   Now we just need an appropriate housing.  And that's really what the trailer hub was about. 

Are the double roller spherical bearings something in between the roller and the angular contact? 

I don't know the answers to these questions but I'll keep researching. 


Dan Pfeiffer

On 2021-03-25 5:17 pm, Dan Pfeiffer wrote:

Carsten,  Thanks for the useful details. I have googled it.  Many hours spent.  I should have said I was a hobbyist, not a novice.  I don't have the knowledge on materials but I have some experience with the machining.  I have a very capable Sheldon 11" lathe with the appropriate tooling for this and a Bridgeport.  Worst case is I waste the 30-$50 on a blank for some useful practice.  It is a more challenging fabrication but worth a try I think. 

The spherical bearing is very interesting.  Maybe something like this:
https://www.grainger.com/product/SKF-Spherical-Roller-Bearing-36MD98

Not crazy expensive but there is still the housing.  And that will need to have lubrication and seals.  I'll look further into it.   Let us know when your housing design is ready. 

Yes the shaft will be in the engine room.  No exposure to sea water unless a hose bursts.  And I am on fresh water. 

Thanks, Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2021-03-25 3:04 pm, Carsten via groups.io wrote:

Dan, 34CrNiMo6 is for hard working shafts, and easy to machine in properly sized lathe, given the right treatment is done before machining.

It is NOT stainless steel, and thus, not prone to "self-hardening".

Please google it.

 

I don't know your machining skills, but please contact a shaft machining shop (I did not say ANY machining shop) with your design at hand. This is definitely not a DIY novice job.

 

There seemailer wheel hub bearings lately in this forum, mostly triggered by the Thunderstruck (etc.) base plate designs.The shaft of a propeller has mostly only (bi-directional) axial forces, exept where we cons to be a tendency to choose standard trnect our belt pulley.

A hub bearing is meant to deal with radial forces, and some axial forces.

There are torsional forces too.

My suggestion is to use a double roller spherical bearing, set in a proper housing.

I contacted SKF (the inventor), and they recommended this bearing for this purpose.

(Hmm, maybe I should mass produce a range of housings ? ;-)

 

For corrosion, Dan, your shaft is to be in the engine/motor room, and not submerged (I hope), so it should only be protected for exposure to humidity, like a car body.

A clear Dinitrol spray will do fine.

Priming and painting looks nice, but ehh, not necessary for a simple shaft, right ?!

 

I hope this information will be useful.

 

 

_._,_._,_

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Re: [electricboats] Question about bus bar safety

For cables over about 10ga I like making labels with a label-maker and using clear heat shrink over them.    I have done bands of colored electric tape under clear heat shrink that has lasted for decades.  I have also done labels printed on regular paper then sealed over on the cable with clear heat shrink.    Not in the boat but I don't see why it wouldn't do OK there. 


Dan Pfeiffer

 

On 2021-03-29 10:24 pm, Ken Winokur wrote:

Colored heat shrink tubing is also good but avoid electrical tape it turns too goo on a boat.

 

 

 

Re: [electricboats] Question about bus bar safety

Colored heat shrink tubing is also good but avoid electrical tape it turns too goo on a boat.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 5:00 PM Ken Winokur via groups.io <kenwphoto=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Perhaps an etched placards would be a good  idea. They can be purchased laser cut at a trophy shop for just a few dollars.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 4:57 PM Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Thanks, Tommy.

This is THE way to do it ! By the pro's.

But not many ordinary boat owners would do so...;-(

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 04:10:51 GMT+8, Tommy rochester <troche289@gmail.com> wrote:

You could do color coding with electrical tape. In high voltage ac panels will have at the terminations red, orange or yellow wrapped on the wire to identify high voltage.  You could just make a legend identifying what colors you use for varying voltage (48, 24, 12, 120ac). Just be sure to mark both ends of the wire. Any time you open up anything you will automatically know what you are working with. 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 3:42 PM Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Printed plastic labels have a tendency to peel off. Leaving you clueless.

When they ARE in (the correct) place, it is good !

I bought a swedish boat, labelled extensively by the former DIY owner.

But some were peeled off, some showing wrong. In swedish, of course, but no problem for me.

I decided not to trust those labels.

In general, less that 70V is not considered "dangerous" in a EE's mind.

So. just tell your coming new owner of your carefully designed DIY boat, that there are more than the usual 12V or 24V system onboard.

That'll jusitfy the use of a multimeter - you're so right, Ryan !

(I'll design my upcoming 48V 12KW motor and battery system to be possible to deliver 96V to the motor. "Nitro" electric, for emergencies !)

I would make a printed documentation of the system (sealed ?), to follow the boat documents.

Then your back is free. New owner has to read all docs before using the boat,right ?

Carsten

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 03:08:36 GMT+8, Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

That's a good one, I'll make good use of the label maker this week. ;-) I'm going to add "always use a multimeter to verify your assumptions about the circuit before beginning work."

On Mar 29, 2021, at 12:00, Daniel Michaels via groups.io <nov32394=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



A general warning at the electrical panel stating that "This boat has 12 and 48 volt buss bars.

Dan

On Monday, March 29, 2021, 12:27:51 PM MDT, Mike hurley via groups.io <redwood1957=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Seams as if there should be color codes for ac/ DC48 and dc12 for pos/ and neg

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM, Ryan Sweet

<ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Typo, hopefully obvious

"48v or 12v"

Why do we still use asdf keyboard layouts on thumb driven mobile phones? Sigh.

> On Mar 27, 2021, at 10:57, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:

>

> For those of you that have 12v systems and 48v systems, is there a standard or convention for making it really clear that a given bus bar is 48v or 12c?

>

> Mine are in very different places in the boat and I've taken to putting plastic covers over the top and then taping really big labels on them and updating the drawings kept on board (still I'm trying to think of someone working on the boat with no drawing and no history of the installation etc). I know they could and should check with the multimeter but I also feel an obligation to protect a future diy boat owner from themselves if they fail to do that. Hence, wondering if there is some convention.

>

>

>

>

_._,_._,_

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Re: [electricboats] Question about bus bar safety

Perhaps an etched placards would be a good  idea. They can be purchased laser cut at a trophy shop for just a few dollars.

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 4:57 PM Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Thanks, Tommy.

This is THE way to do it ! By the pro's.

But not many ordinary boat owners would do so...;-(

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 04:10:51 GMT+8, Tommy rochester <troche289@gmail.com> wrote:

You could do color coding with electrical tape. In high voltage ac panels will have at the terminations red, orange or yellow wrapped on the wire to identify high voltage.  You could just make a legend identifying what colors you use for varying voltage (48, 24, 12, 120ac). Just be sure to mark both ends of the wire. Any time you open up anything you will automatically know what you are working with. 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 3:42 PM Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Printed plastic labels have a tendency to peel off. Leaving you clueless.

When they ARE in (the correct) place, it is good !

I bought a swedish boat, labelled extensively by the former DIY owner.

But some were peeled off, some showing wrong. In swedish, of course, but no problem for me.

I decided not to trust those labels.

In general, less that 70V is not considered "dangerous" in a EE's mind.

So. just tell your coming new owner of your carefully designed DIY boat, that there are more than the usual 12V or 24V system onboard.

That'll jusitfy the use of a multimeter - you're so right, Ryan !

(I'll design my upcoming 48V 12KW motor and battery system to be possible to deliver 96V to the motor. "Nitro" electric, for emergencies !)

I would make a printed documentation of the system (sealed ?), to follow the boat documents.

Then your back is free. New owner has to read all docs before using the boat,right ?

Carsten

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 03:08:36 GMT+8, Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

That's a good one, I'll make good use of the label maker this week. ;-) I'm going to add "always use a multimeter to verify your assumptions about the circuit before beginning work."

On Mar 29, 2021, at 12:00, Daniel Michaels via groups.io <nov32394=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



A general warning at the electrical panel stating that "This boat has 12 and 48 volt buss bars.

Dan

On Monday, March 29, 2021, 12:27:51 PM MDT, Mike hurley via groups.io <redwood1957=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Seams as if there should be color codes for ac/ DC48 and dc12 for pos/ and neg

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM, Ryan Sweet

<ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Typo, hopefully obvious

"48v or 12v"

Why do we still use asdf keyboard layouts on thumb driven mobile phones? Sigh.

> On Mar 27, 2021, at 10:57, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:

>

> For those of you that have 12v systems and 48v systems, is there a standard or convention for making it really clear that a given bus bar is 48v or 12c?

>

> Mine are in very different places in the boat and I've taken to putting plastic covers over the top and then taping really big labels on them and updating the drawings kept on board (still I'm trying to think of someone working on the boat with no drawing and no history of the installation etc). I know they could and should check with the multimeter but I also feel an obligation to protect a future diy boat owner from themselves if they fail to do that. Hence, wondering if there is some convention.

>

>

>

>

_._,_._,_

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Re: [electricboats] Question about bus bar safety

Thanks, Tommy.

This is THE way to do it ! By the pro's.

But not many ordinary boat owners would do so...;-(

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 04:10:51 GMT+8, Tommy rochester <troche289@gmail.com> wrote:

You could do color coding with electrical tape. In high voltage ac panels will have at the terminations red, orange or yellow wrapped on the wire to identify high voltage.  You could just make a legend identifying what colors you use for varying voltage (48, 24, 12, 120ac). Just be sure to mark both ends of the wire. Any time you open up anything you will automatically know what you are working with. 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 3:42 PM Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Printed plastic labels have a tendency to peel off. Leaving you clueless.

When they ARE in (the correct) place, it is good !

I bought a swedish boat, labelled extensively by the former DIY owner.

But some were peeled off, some showing wrong. In swedish, of course, but no problem for me.

I decided not to trust those labels.

In general, less that 70V is not considered "dangerous" in a EE's mind.

So. just tell your coming new owner of your carefully designed DIY boat, that there are more than the usual 12V or 24V system onboard.

That'll jusitfy the use of a multimeter - you're so right, Ryan !

(I'll design my upcoming 48V 12KW motor and battery system to be possible to deliver 96V to the motor. "Nitro" electric, for emergencies !)

I would make a printed documentation of the system (sealed ?), to follow the boat documents.

Then your back is free. New owner has to read all docs before using the boat,right ?

Carsten

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 03:08:36 GMT+8, Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

That's a good one, I'll make good use of the label maker this week. ;-) I'm going to add "always use a multimeter to verify your assumptions about the circuit before beginning work."

On Mar 29, 2021, at 12:00, Daniel Michaels via groups.io <nov32394=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



A general warning at the electrical panel stating that "This boat has 12 and 48 volt buss bars.

Dan

On Monday, March 29, 2021, 12:27:51 PM MDT, Mike hurley via groups.io <redwood1957=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Seams as if there should be color codes for ac/ DC48 and dc12 for pos/ and neg

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM, Ryan Sweet

<ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Typo, hopefully obvious

"48v or 12v"

Why do we still use asdf keyboard layouts on thumb driven mobile phones? Sigh.

> On Mar 27, 2021, at 10:57, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:

>

> For those of you that have 12v systems and 48v systems, is there a standard or convention for making it really clear that a given bus bar is 48v or 12c?

>

> Mine are in very different places in the boat and I've taken to putting plastic covers over the top and then taping really big labels on them and updating the drawings kept on board (still I'm trying to think of someone working on the boat with no drawing and no history of the installation etc). I know they could and should check with the multimeter but I also feel an obligation to protect a future diy boat owner from themselves if they fail to do that. Hence, wondering if there is some convention.

>

>

>

>

Re: [electricboats] Question about bus bar safety

You could do color coding with electrical tape. In high voltage ac panels will have at the terminations red, orange or yellow wrapped on the wire to identify high voltage.  You could just make a legend identifying what colors you use for varying voltage (48, 24, 12, 120ac). Just be sure to mark both ends of the wire. Any time you open up anything you will automatically know what you are working with. 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 3:42 PM Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Printed plastic labels have a tendency to peel off. Leaving you clueless.

When they ARE in (the correct) place, it is good !

I bought a swedish boat, labelled extensively by the former DIY owner.

But some were peeled off, some showing wrong. In swedish, of course, but no problem for me.

I decided not to trust those labels.

In general, less that 70V is not considered "dangerous" in a EE's mind.

So. just tell your coming new owner of your carefully designed DIY boat, that there are more than the usual 12V or 24V system onboard.

That'll jusitfy the use of a multimeter - you're so right, Ryan !

(I'll design my upcoming 48V 12KW motor and battery system to be possible to deliver 96V to the motor. "Nitro" electric, for emergencies !)

I would make a printed documentation of the system (sealed ?), to follow the boat documents.

Then your back is free. New owner has to read all docs before using the boat,right ?

Carsten

On Tuesday, 30 March 2021, 03:08:36 GMT+8, Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

That's a good one, I'll make good use of the label maker this week. ;-) I'm going to add "always use a multimeter to verify your assumptions about the circuit before beginning work."

On Mar 29, 2021, at 12:00, Daniel Michaels via groups.io <nov32394=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



A general warning at the electrical panel stating that "This boat has 12 and 48 volt buss bars.

Dan

On Monday, March 29, 2021, 12:27:51 PM MDT, Mike hurley via groups.io <redwood1957=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Seams as if there should be color codes for ac/ DC48 and dc12 for pos/ and neg

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:03 PM, Ryan Sweet

<ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Typo, hopefully obvious

"48v or 12v"

Why do we still use asdf keyboard layouts on thumb driven mobile phones? Sigh.

> On Mar 27, 2021, at 10:57, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:

>

> For those of you that have 12v systems and 48v systems, is there a standard or convention for making it really clear that a given bus bar is 48v or 12c?

>

> Mine are in very different places in the boat and I've taken to putting plastic covers over the top and then taping really big labels on them and updating the drawings kept on board (still I'm trying to think of someone working on the boat with no drawing and no history of the installation etc). I know they could and should check with the multimeter but I also feel an obligation to protect a future diy boat owner from themselves if they fail to do that. Hence, wondering if there is some convention.

>

>

>

>

_._,_._,_

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You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#31253) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic
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