Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

One of the best sites I have seen can give you a pretty good answer for LiFePo, for how much total capacity lost for each voltage cutoff.  For example at 3.6 volt per cell will only cost you a max of 2%.  That would be around 14.4 volts for a 12 volt equivalent, or 57.6 for 48 volt equivalent.   You can run the math for other cut off points. 

https://www.powerstream.com/lithium-phosphate-charge-voltage.htm

 

On Jun 26, 2020, at 12:13 PM, john via groups.io <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



Myles,

I'm following what you're saying, and appreciate improving the life of the lithium battery by not fully charging it to the max allowed voltage.  But would you be giving up a significant portion of the battery capacity?

And I guess all of this depends on the exact details...

There was one "12V" Lithium battery I peeked at:

https://www.amazon.com/ExpertPower-Rechargeable-2500-7000-lifetime-Applications/dp/B07X2TM8MF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=12v+lithium+battery+50ah&qid=1593187731&sr=8-4

It's rated for a max charging voltage of 14.4V, with a standby voltage of 13.8V.

So I guess if your "48V to 12V" converter actually put out 13.5V (typical of many automotive systems),  then you'd probably be in pretty good shape.

If it only put out a true 12V, then your 50Ah battery (from above example) would never get close to being fully charged, and you'd get a significantly reduced fraction of the 50Ah life out of it before needing more charging.

Right?

John

On Friday, June 26, 2020, 11:03:56 AM CDT, Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

There's another consideration here: the house battery 'type'.

What Reuben says is correct if one is using PbA batteries for the house battery (12v or 24v or…).  Lead acid batteries need to be charged much higher than their nominal voltage rating and need to ramp the charge current down as that voltage gets near the end and then halt current (or possibly provide a trickle or maintenance charge after cooling down).

However, if instead of PbA batteries, you were using lithium for your house pack and that the lithium battery was rated, say, as a replacement for 12v (PbA) batteries.  Most of these are rated to 14.4v or so and there is no penalty at all in charging them only to 12v.  In fact, the lifetime of the batteries is improved by keeping the voltage lower, so…  And so, in the case of lithium batteries used as the house battery, you would not need (nor maybe would it be advisable) to use a 48vDC-12vDC charger unit (unless it were configurable for lithium) but simply use a 48/12v DCDC and you'd be just fine.

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Reuben Trane via groups.io
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 7:37 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

 

A DC/DC converter (power supply) is NOT a charger. I mistakenly did the same as you, using DC/DC converters hooked up to my 12v batteries (2 separate systems). They eventually "killed" the batteries. That is why I researched the DC/DC battery charger. It works as a constant source of 12v while charging the battery. That power supply you bought works w/o a battery supplying a constant 12v. I use 500w Mean Well 48v/12v to supply 2 of my 12v panels. And I have 48VDC/12v battery chargers going to 12v batteries - one for the panel with the windlass (hi amps) and one to the panel with the generator (ditto). My DC/DC converters can't handle the higher amp loads. 

Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

Myles,

I'm following what you're saying, and appreciate improving the life of the lithium battery by not fully charging it to the max allowed voltage.  But would you be giving up a significant portion of the battery capacity?

And I guess all of this depends on the exact details...

There was one "12V" Lithium battery I peeked at:

https://www.amazon.com/ExpertPower-Rechargeable-2500-7000-lifetime-Applications/dp/B07X2TM8MF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=12v+lithium+battery+50ah&qid=1593187731&sr=8-4

It's rated for a max charging voltage of 14.4V, with a standby voltage of 13.8V.

So I guess if your "48V to 12V" converter actually put out 13.5V (typical of many automotive systems),  then you'd probably be in pretty good shape.

If it only put out a true 12V, then your 50Ah battery (from above example) would never get close to being fully charged, and you'd get a significantly reduced fraction of the 50Ah life out of it before needing more charging.

Right?

John

On Friday, June 26, 2020, 11:03:56 AM CDT, Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

There's another consideration here: the house battery 'type'.

What Reuben says is correct if one is using PbA batteries for the house battery (12v or 24v or…).  Lead acid batteries need to be charged much higher than their nominal voltage rating and need to ramp the charge current down as that voltage gets near the end and then halt current (or possibly provide a trickle or maintenance charge after cooling down).

However, if instead of PbA batteries, you were using lithium for your house pack and that the lithium battery was rated, say, as a replacement for 12v (PbA) batteries.  Most of these are rated to 14.4v or so and there is no penalty at all in charging them only to 12v.  In fact, the lifetime of the batteries is improved by keeping the voltage lower, so…  And so, in the case of lithium batteries used as the house battery, you would not need (nor maybe would it be advisable) to use a 48vDC-12vDC charger unit (unless it were configurable for lithium) but simply use a 48/12v DCDC and you'd be just fine.

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Reuben Trane via groups.io
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 7:37 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

 

A DC/DC converter (power supply) is NOT a charger. I mistakenly did the same as you, using DC/DC converters hooked up to my 12v batteries (2 separate systems). They eventually "killed" the batteries. That is why I researched the DC/DC battery charger. It works as a constant source of 12v while charging the battery. That power supply you bought works w/o a battery supplying a constant 12v. I use 500w Mean Well 48v/12v to supply 2 of my 12v panels. And I have 48VDC/12v battery chargers going to 12v batteries - one for the panel with the windlass (hi amps) and one to the panel with the generator (ditto). My DC/DC converters can't handle the higher amp loads. 

Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

There's another consideration here: the house battery 'type'.

What Reuben says is correct if one is using PbA batteries for the house battery (12v or 24v or…).  Lead acid batteries need to be charged much higher than their nominal voltage rating and need to ramp the charge current down as that voltage gets near the end and then halt current (or possibly provide a trickle or maintenance charge after cooling down).

However, if instead of PbA batteries, you were using lithium for your house pack and that the lithium battery was rated, say, as a replacement for 12v (PbA) batteries.  Most of these are rated to 14.4v or so and there is no penalty at all in charging them only to 12v.  In fact, the lifetime of the batteries is improved by keeping the voltage lower, so…  And so, in the case of lithium batteries used as the house battery, you would not need (nor maybe would it be advisable) to use a 48vDC-12vDC charger unit (unless it were configurable for lithium) but simply use a 48/12v DCDC and you'd be just fine.

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Reuben Trane via groups.io
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 7:37 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

 

A DC/DC converter (power supply) is NOT a charger. I mistakenly did the same as you, using DC/DC converters hooked up to my 12v batteries (2 separate systems). They eventually "killed" the batteries. That is why I researched the DC/DC battery charger. It works as a constant source of 12v while charging the battery. That power supply you bought works w/o a battery supplying a constant 12v. I use 500w Mean Well 48v/12v to supply 2 of my 12v panels. And I have 48VDC/12v battery chargers going to 12v batteries - one for the panel with the windlass (hi amps) and one to the panel with the generator (ditto). My DC/DC converters can't handle the higher amp loads. 

Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

A DC/DC converter (power supply) is NOT a charger. I mistakenly did the same as you, using DC/DC converters hooked up to my 12v batteries (2 separate systems). They eventually “killed” the batteries. That is why I researched the DC/DC battery charger. It works as a constant source of 12v while charging the battery. That power supply you bought works w/o a battery supplying a constant 12v. I use 500w Mean Well 48v/12v to supply 2 of my 12v panels. And I have 48VDC/12v battery chargers going to 12v batteries - one for the panel with the windlass (hi amps) and one to the panel with the generator (ditto). My DC/DC converters can’t handle the higher amp loads. 

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Re: [electricboats] Lake Test - 13' plywood runabout with Torqee

Nice ride!

Capt. Carter

www.shipofimagination.com

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 4:45 PM, john via groups.io

<oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Monday, 6/22/20, I conducted my first on the water Lake trial with my electric conversion, "Mischief".

Mischief is a home built plywood runabout, currently powered with a Torqeedo 4R outboard.  Specs are below:

LOA:  13' 4" (without motor)

Beam:  5'9"

Weight:  about 300-400#

Draft:  approximately 6-7", with motor up.

Theoretical Hull Speed:  4.9mph

Motor:  Torqeedo 4R electric outboard (with remote steering)

    48V, max 4000W input

Battery:

  Main battery bank:  48V 50Ah eBike battery system from BTR (ordered on Amazon) (approx $900)

  Backup / get home battery:   48V 20Ah eBike Battery system from BTR  (under $500)

Both battery systems were bench tested.  For each test, the battery was fully charged, and then connected to sets of #9006 12V halogen light bulbs (4 bulbs in series gives a 48V load at about 4A).  Time and voltage were recorded periodically until the battery BMS shut down the voltage output from the battery.  Tests were conducted with 4, 8, and 16 bulbs (max was 4 parallel sets of 4 bulbs, approximately 800-900W).  I have the data on these tests, if anyone is interested.

At the lake!!

First test was a static test of running the boat at the boat ramp (the motor needs to be in the water when running).  The motor was run at 1000W, and ran for approximately 45 min before the BMS dropped out, on the 20Ah battery.  The BMS dropped out at about 48V.   (The BMS on the 50Ah battery drops out at around 40V.)

The first "on the water" test lasted for approximately an hour, and used approximately 30-50% of the capacity of the 50Ah battery bank.

Performance of the boat consistently met expectations.  Handling was great.  As long as you're ok with a walking speed cruise - the boat performed very well.

 Volts Amps Watts MPH

 58.2    5.15 300         3

 57.0 6.5         370         3.5

 56.8 8.80 500          3.9

 57.7 10.4 600         4

 56.0 15.71 880         4.9

 57         17.54 1000 5

 56         26.79 1500 5.7

I've attached a couple of pictures of the boat.  Please let me know if they don't come across.

If anyone would like more details, feel free to contact me.

John

Re: [electricboats] Lake Test - 13' plywood runabout with Torqeedo 4R, and 50Ah eBike battery bank

Ok good maybe better than just a regular trolling motor?

Hopefully faster

Ever tried it with 24v?

Thx 

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 12:37:56 PM PDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

SW,
It's a Hang Kai 2.2 About $450 on ali express, plus about 3 months on the slow boat from China. Haven't tested it yet, but looks well made. Chinglesh directions said "do not use in rain!" . It has some open air vents in cowl, I'm going to fabricate some kind of water trap hood for these.
Jerry

On June 25, 2020, at 10:45 AM, "sw via groups.io" <v1opps=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

You use the Newport Chinese motor or ?

Do you use model airplane pusher prop?

Thx

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 23:04, john via groups.io <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jerry,

Unfortunately, the wiring on the batteries is small.  Probably only good for 30A.  I currently have a 30Amp breaker between the battery and the motor to prevent overheating the wires coming out of the battery.

I was hopeful I would get a chance to test cranking up the motor at the dock when the boat was back on the trailer - but a barge was taking up two of the 3 lanes, and a line was starting to form, so I didn't have a chance to test what power level (and how long) would trip the breaker.

If the Chinese motor will put out 2kw worth of power, you should be fine.   I have tested a Catalina 22 with a Torqeedo 2T (2000W max).  At 1000-1200W, the C22 went about 4mph.  The C22 is a MUCH tougher shape to push than your catamaran, and MUCH heavier.  As always, if you want to go much faster, you'll need a LOT more power.

Dramatically increasing the power will get you a little more speed - but it's not sustainable.  Even if the battery wiring could handle 2500W (max rating of the battery - probably based on the wiring...) - it would exhaust the battery in under an hour.   I want at least 2-3 hours of cruising time for a power boat to be considered practical.  At 500-600W, I should be able to cruise at 3.5-4mph for 3-4 hours on a 50Ah battery.  At 500W for 3 hours, I'll have a nice cruise without overly exhausting the battery.

Do you have a place to mount a single motor (between the two pontoons?)

You may also be challenged to find 24V eBike motors.

For my boat - the sweet spot for cruising seems to be around 600W - hitting around 4mph.  At that power level, a single 50Ah, 48V eBike battery should give me around 2 hours of cruising.   And then, if "something bad happens", I have the 20Ah backup battery that should give me around an hour of "get home" cruising.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 10:38:16 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

John,
Please cranky uppy to 4k watts and let us know results. I got a 2.3 kw chinese motor and building 12' catamaran dinghy. I think I can get by with the one motor but may need two. Thinking bike batteries like you did.
Jerry Barth

On June 24, 2020, at 3:45 PM, "john via groups.io" <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Monday, 6/22/20, I conducted my first on the water Lake trial with my electric conversion, "Mischief".

Mischief is a home built plywood runabout, currently powered with a Torqeedo 4R outboard.  Specs are below:

LOA:  13' 4" (without motor)

Beam:  5'9"

Weight:  about 300-400#

Draft:  approximately 6-7", with motor up.

Theoretical Hull Speed:  4.9mph

Motor:  Torqeedo 4R electric outboard (with remote steering)

    48V, max 4000W input

Battery:

  Main battery bank:  48V 50Ah eBike battery system from BTR (ordered on Amazon) (approx $900)

  Backup / get home battery:   48V 20Ah eBike Battery system from BTR  (under $500)

Both battery systems were bench tested.  For each test, the battery was fully charged, and then connected to sets of #9006 12V halogen light bulbs (4 bulbs in series gives a 48V load at about 4A).  Time and voltage were recorded periodically until the battery BMS shut down the voltage output from the battery.  Tests were conducted with 4, 8, and 16 bulbs (max was 4 parallel sets of 4 bulbs, approximately 800-900W).  I have the data on these tests, if anyone is interested.

At the lake!!

First test was a static test of running the boat at the boat ramp (the motor needs to be in the water when running).  The motor was run at 1000W, and ran for approximately 45 min before the BMS dropped out, on the 20Ah battery.  The BMS dropped out at about 48V.   (The BMS on the 50Ah battery drops out at around 40V.)

The first "on the water" test lasted for approximately an hour, and used approximately 30-50% of the capacity of the 50Ah battery bank.

Performance of the boat consistently met expectations.  Handling was great.  As long as you're ok with a walking speed cruise - the boat performed very well.

 Volts Amps Watts MPH

 58.2    5.15 300         3

 57.0 6.5         370         3.5

 56.8 8.80 500          3.9

 57.7 10.4 600         4

 56.0 15.71 880         4.9

 57         17.54 1000 5

 56         26.79 1500 5.7

I've attached a couple of pictures of the boat.  Please let me know if they don't come across.

If anyone would like more details, feel free to contact me.

John

Re: [electricboats] Hangkai 2.2 electric?

Hm.  Interesting.  While the title mentioned "Brushless motor", the specs said it was a 2 stroke gas engine.   :)

If it's only 1200W, and only tiller (which would make sense), then I'd be less interested in it.

Though - if it really can produce an effective 800W, that would get my little boat to a reasonable speed.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 05:00:31 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

John,
I misspoke. The motor is 1200 watts. Maybe I came up with 2200 watts because my backup plan is to get another in case one is not enough power. I believe it's tiller only. Here's the link:
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32713790916.html

Jerry

On June 25, 2020, at 2:45 PM, "john via groups.io" <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jerry,

Not that I need yet another project....   but....

I would love to hear more about this motor as you gain experience with it (though I no longer see it listed - maybe my search is bad?)

Is this motor tiller controlled only, or is there a remote control option.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 02:37:55 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

SW,
It's a Hang Kai 2.2 About $450 on ali express, plus about 3 months on the slow boat from China. Haven't tested it yet, but looks well made. Chinglesh directions said "do not use in rain!" . It has some open air vents in cowl, I'm going to fabricate some kind of water trap hood for these.
Jerry

On June 25, 2020, at 10:45 AM, "sw via groups.io" <v1opps=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

You use the Newport Chinese motor or ?

Do you use model airplane pusher prop?

Thx

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 23:04, john via groups.io <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jerry,

Unfortunately, the wiring on the batteries is small.  Probably only good for 30A.  I currently have a 30Amp breaker between the battery and the motor to prevent overheating the wires coming out of the battery.

I was hopeful I would get a chance to test cranking up the motor at the dock when the boat was back on the trailer - but a barge was taking up two of the 3 lanes, and a line was starting to form, so I didn't have a chance to test what power level (and how long) would trip the breaker.

If the Chinese motor will put out 2kw worth of power, you should be fine.   I have tested a Catalina 22 with a Torqeedo 2T (2000W max).  At 1000-1200W, the C22 went about 4mph.  The C22 is a MUCH tougher shape to push than your catamaran, and MUCH heavier.  As always, if you want to go much faster, you'll need a LOT more power.

Dramatically increasing the power will get you a little more speed - but it's not sustainable.  Even if the battery wiring could handle 2500W (max rating of the battery - probably based on the wiring...) - it would exhaust the battery in under an hour.   I want at least 2-3 hours of cruising time for a power boat to be considered practical.  At 500-600W, I should be able to cruise at 3.5-4mph for 3-4 hours on a 50Ah battery.  At 500W for 3 hours, I'll have a nice cruise without overly exhausting the battery.

Do you have a place to mount a single motor (between the two pontoons?)

You may also be challenged to find 24V eBike motors.

For my boat - the sweet spot for cruising seems to be around 600W - hitting around 4mph.  At that power level, a single 50Ah, 48V eBike battery should give me around 2 hours of cruising.   And then, if "something bad happens", I have the 20Ah backup battery that should give me around an hour of "get home" cruising.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 10:38:16 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

John,
Please cranky uppy to 4k watts and let us know results. I got a 2.3 kw chinese motor and building 12' catamaran dinghy. I think I can get by with the one motor but may need two. Thinking bike batteries like you did.
Jerry Barth

On June 24, 2020, at 3:45 PM, "john via groups.io" <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Monday, 6/22/20, I conducted my first on the water Lake trial with my electric conversion, "Mischief".

Mischief is a home built plywood runabout, currently powered with a Torqeedo 4R outboard.  Specs are below:

LOA:  13' 4" (without motor)

Beam:  5'9"

Weight:  about 300-400#

Draft:  approximately 6-7", with motor up.

Theoretical Hull Speed:  4.9mph

Motor:  Torqeedo 4R electric outboard (with remote steering)

    48V, max 4000W input

Battery:

  Main battery bank:  48V 50Ah eBike battery system from BTR (ordered on Amazon) (approx $900)

  Backup / get home battery:   48V 20Ah eBike Battery system from BTR  (under $500)

Both battery systems were bench tested.  For each test, the battery was fully charged, and then connected to sets of #9006 12V halogen light bulbs (4 bulbs in series gives a 48V load at about 4A).  Time and voltage were recorded periodically until the battery BMS shut down the voltage output from the battery.  Tests were conducted with 4, 8, and 16 bulbs (max was 4 parallel sets of 4 bulbs, approximately 800-900W).  I have the data on these tests, if anyone is interested.

At the lake!!

First test was a static test of running the boat at the boat ramp (the motor needs to be in the water when running).  The motor was run at 1000W, and ran for approximately 45 min before the BMS dropped out, on the 20Ah battery.  The BMS dropped out at about 48V.   (The BMS on the 50Ah battery drops out at around 40V.)

The first "on the water" test lasted for approximately an hour, and used approximately 30-50% of the capacity of the 50Ah battery bank.

Performance of the boat consistently met expectations.  Handling was great.  As long as you're ok with a walking speed cruise - the boat performed very well.

 Volts Amps Watts MPH

 58.2    5.15 300         3

 57.0 6.5         370         3.5

 56.8 8.80 500          3.9

 57.7 10.4 600         4

 56.0 15.71 880         4.9

 57         17.54 1000 5

 56         26.79 1500 5.7

I've attached a couple of pictures of the boat.  Please let me know if they don't come across.

If anyone would like more details, feel free to contact me.

John

Re: [electricboats] Hangkai 2.2 electric?

Jerry,

Not that I need yet another project....   but....

I would love to hear more about this motor as you gain experience with it (though I no longer see it listed - maybe my search is bad?)

Is this motor tiller controlled only, or is there a remote control option.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 02:37:55 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

SW,
It's a Hang Kai 2.2 About $450 on ali express, plus about 3 months on the slow boat from China. Haven't tested it yet, but looks well made. Chinglesh directions said "do not use in rain!" . It has some open air vents in cowl, I'm going to fabricate some kind of water trap hood for these.
Jerry

On June 25, 2020, at 10:45 AM, "sw via groups.io" <v1opps=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

You use the Newport Chinese motor or ?

Do you use model airplane pusher prop?

Thx

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 23:04, john via groups.io <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jerry,

Unfortunately, the wiring on the batteries is small.  Probably only good for 30A.  I currently have a 30Amp breaker between the battery and the motor to prevent overheating the wires coming out of the battery.

I was hopeful I would get a chance to test cranking up the motor at the dock when the boat was back on the trailer - but a barge was taking up two of the 3 lanes, and a line was starting to form, so I didn't have a chance to test what power level (and how long) would trip the breaker.

If the Chinese motor will put out 2kw worth of power, you should be fine.   I have tested a Catalina 22 with a Torqeedo 2T (2000W max).  At 1000-1200W, the C22 went about 4mph.  The C22 is a MUCH tougher shape to push than your catamaran, and MUCH heavier.  As always, if you want to go much faster, you'll need a LOT more power.

Dramatically increasing the power will get you a little more speed - but it's not sustainable.  Even if the battery wiring could handle 2500W (max rating of the battery - probably based on the wiring...) - it would exhaust the battery in under an hour.   I want at least 2-3 hours of cruising time for a power boat to be considered practical.  At 500-600W, I should be able to cruise at 3.5-4mph for 3-4 hours on a 50Ah battery.  At 500W for 3 hours, I'll have a nice cruise without overly exhausting the battery.

Do you have a place to mount a single motor (between the two pontoons?)

You may also be challenged to find 24V eBike motors.

For my boat - the sweet spot for cruising seems to be around 600W - hitting around 4mph.  At that power level, a single 50Ah, 48V eBike battery should give me around 2 hours of cruising.   And then, if "something bad happens", I have the 20Ah backup battery that should give me around an hour of "get home" cruising.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 10:38:16 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

John,
Please cranky uppy to 4k watts and let us know results. I got a 2.3 kw chinese motor and building 12' catamaran dinghy. I think I can get by with the one motor but may need two. Thinking bike batteries like you did.
Jerry Barth

On June 24, 2020, at 3:45 PM, "john via groups.io" <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Monday, 6/22/20, I conducted my first on the water Lake trial with my electric conversion, "Mischief".

Mischief is a home built plywood runabout, currently powered with a Torqeedo 4R outboard.  Specs are below:

LOA:  13' 4" (without motor)

Beam:  5'9"

Weight:  about 300-400#

Draft:  approximately 6-7", with motor up.

Theoretical Hull Speed:  4.9mph

Motor:  Torqeedo 4R electric outboard (with remote steering)

    48V, max 4000W input

Battery:

  Main battery bank:  48V 50Ah eBike battery system from BTR (ordered on Amazon) (approx $900)

  Backup / get home battery:   48V 20Ah eBike Battery system from BTR  (under $500)

Both battery systems were bench tested.  For each test, the battery was fully charged, and then connected to sets of #9006 12V halogen light bulbs (4 bulbs in series gives a 48V load at about 4A).  Time and voltage were recorded periodically until the battery BMS shut down the voltage output from the battery.  Tests were conducted with 4, 8, and 16 bulbs (max was 4 parallel sets of 4 bulbs, approximately 800-900W).  I have the data on these tests, if anyone is interested.

At the lake!!

First test was a static test of running the boat at the boat ramp (the motor needs to be in the water when running).  The motor was run at 1000W, and ran for approximately 45 min before the BMS dropped out, on the 20Ah battery.  The BMS dropped out at about 48V.   (The BMS on the 50Ah battery drops out at around 40V.)

The first "on the water" test lasted for approximately an hour, and used approximately 30-50% of the capacity of the 50Ah battery bank.

Performance of the boat consistently met expectations.  Handling was great.  As long as you're ok with a walking speed cruise - the boat performed very well.

 Volts Amps Watts MPH

 58.2    5.15 300         3

 57.0 6.5         370         3.5

 56.8 8.80 500          3.9

 57.7 10.4 600         4

 56.0 15.71 880         4.9

 57         17.54 1000 5

 56         26.79 1500 5.7

I've attached a couple of pictures of the boat.  Please let me know if they don't come across.

If anyone would like more details, feel free to contact me.

John

[electricboats] Hangkai 2.2 electric?

Jerry,

Not that I need yet another project....   but....

I would love to hear more about this motor as you gain experience with it (though I no longer see it listed - maybe my search is bad?)

Is this motor tiller controlled only, or is there a remote control option.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 02:37:55 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

SW,
It's a Hang Kai 2.2 About $450 on ali express, plus about 3 months on the slow boat from China. Haven't tested it yet, but looks well made. Chinglesh directions said "do not use in rain!" . It has some open air vents in cowl, I'm going to fabricate some kind of water trap hood for these.
Jerry

On June 25, 2020, at 10:45 AM, "sw via groups.io" <v1opps=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

You use the Newport Chinese motor or ?

Do you use model airplane pusher prop?

Thx

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 23:04, john via groups.io <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jerry,

Unfortunately, the wiring on the batteries is small.  Probably only good for 30A.  I currently have a 30Amp breaker between the battery and the motor to prevent overheating the wires coming out of the battery.

I was hopeful I would get a chance to test cranking up the motor at the dock when the boat was back on the trailer - but a barge was taking up two of the 3 lanes, and a line was starting to form, so I didn't have a chance to test what power level (and how long) would trip the breaker.

If the Chinese motor will put out 2kw worth of power, you should be fine.   I have tested a Catalina 22 with a Torqeedo 2T (2000W max).  At 1000-1200W, the C22 went about 4mph.  The C22 is a MUCH tougher shape to push than your catamaran, and MUCH heavier.  As always, if you want to go much faster, you'll need a LOT more power.

Dramatically increasing the power will get you a little more speed - but it's not sustainable.  Even if the battery wiring could handle 2500W (max rating of the battery - probably based on the wiring...) - it would exhaust the battery in under an hour.   I want at least 2-3 hours of cruising time for a power boat to be considered practical.  At 500-600W, I should be able to cruise at 3.5-4mph for 3-4 hours on a 50Ah battery.  At 500W for 3 hours, I'll have a nice cruise without overly exhausting the battery.

Do you have a place to mount a single motor (between the two pontoons?)

You may also be challenged to find 24V eBike motors.

For my boat - the sweet spot for cruising seems to be around 600W - hitting around 4mph.  At that power level, a single 50Ah, 48V eBike battery should give me around 2 hours of cruising.   And then, if "something bad happens", I have the 20Ah backup battery that should give me around an hour of "get home" cruising.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 10:38:16 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

John,
Please cranky uppy to 4k watts and let us know results. I got a 2.3 kw chinese motor and building 12' catamaran dinghy. I think I can get by with the one motor but may need two. Thinking bike batteries like you did.
Jerry Barth

On June 24, 2020, at 3:45 PM, "john via groups.io" <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Monday, 6/22/20, I conducted my first on the water Lake trial with my electric conversion, "Mischief".

Mischief is a home built plywood runabout, currently powered with a Torqeedo 4R outboard.  Specs are below:

LOA:  13' 4" (without motor)

Beam:  5'9"

Weight:  about 300-400#

Draft:  approximately 6-7", with motor up.

Theoretical Hull Speed:  4.9mph

Motor:  Torqeedo 4R electric outboard (with remote steering)

    48V, max 4000W input

Battery:

  Main battery bank:  48V 50Ah eBike battery system from BTR (ordered on Amazon) (approx $900)

  Backup / get home battery:   48V 20Ah eBike Battery system from BTR  (under $500)

Both battery systems were bench tested.  For each test, the battery was fully charged, and then connected to sets of #9006 12V halogen light bulbs (4 bulbs in series gives a 48V load at about 4A).  Time and voltage were recorded periodically until the battery BMS shut down the voltage output from the battery.  Tests were conducted with 4, 8, and 16 bulbs (max was 4 parallel sets of 4 bulbs, approximately 800-900W).  I have the data on these tests, if anyone is interested.

At the lake!!

First test was a static test of running the boat at the boat ramp (the motor needs to be in the water when running).  The motor was run at 1000W, and ran for approximately 45 min before the BMS dropped out, on the 20Ah battery.  The BMS dropped out at about 48V.   (The BMS on the 50Ah battery drops out at around 40V.)

The first "on the water" test lasted for approximately an hour, and used approximately 30-50% of the capacity of the 50Ah battery bank.

Performance of the boat consistently met expectations.  Handling was great.  As long as you're ok with a walking speed cruise - the boat performed very well.

 Volts Amps Watts MPH

 58.2    5.15 300         3

 57.0 6.5         370         3.5

 56.8 8.80 500          3.9

 57.7 10.4 600         4

 56.0 15.71 880         4.9

 57         17.54 1000 5

 56         26.79 1500 5.7

I've attached a couple of pictures of the boat.  Please let me know if they don't come across.

If anyone would like more details, feel free to contact me.

John

Re: [electricboats] Lake Test - 13' plywood runabout with Torqeedo 4R, and 50Ah eBike battery bank

You use the Newport Chinese motor or ?

Do you use model airplane pusher prop?

Thx

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 23:04, john via groups.io <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jerry,

Unfortunately, the wiring on the batteries is small.  Probably only good for 30A.  I currently have a 30Amp breaker between the battery and the motor to prevent overheating the wires coming out of the battery.

I was hopeful I would get a chance to test cranking up the motor at the dock when the boat was back on the trailer - but a barge was taking up two of the 3 lanes, and a line was starting to form, so I didn't have a chance to test what power level (and how long) would trip the breaker.

If the Chinese motor will put out 2kw worth of power, you should be fine.   I have tested a Catalina 22 with a Torqeedo 2T (2000W max).  At 1000-1200W, the C22 went about 4mph.  The C22 is a MUCH tougher shape to push than your catamaran, and MUCH heavier.  As always, if you want to go much faster, you'll need a LOT more power.

Dramatically increasing the power will get you a little more speed - but it's not sustainable.  Even if the battery wiring could handle 2500W (max rating of the battery - probably based on the wiring...) - it would exhaust the battery in under an hour.   I want at least 2-3 hours of cruising time for a power boat to be considered practical.  At 500-600W, I should be able to cruise at 3.5-4mph for 3-4 hours on a 50Ah battery.  At 500W for 3 hours, I'll have a nice cruise without overly exhausting the battery.

Do you have a place to mount a single motor (between the two pontoons?)

You may also be challenged to find 24V eBike motors.

For my boat - the sweet spot for cruising seems to be around 600W - hitting around 4mph.  At that power level, a single 50Ah, 48V eBike battery should give me around 2 hours of cruising.   And then, if "something bad happens", I have the 20Ah backup battery that should give me around an hour of "get home" cruising.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 10:38:16 PM CDT, shredderf16 <shredderf16@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

John,
Please cranky uppy to 4k watts and let us know results. I got a 2.3 kw chinese motor and building 12' catamaran dinghy. I think I can get by with the one motor but may need two. Thinking bike batteries like you did.
Jerry Barth

On June 24, 2020, at 3:45 PM, "john via groups.io" <oak_box=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

On Monday, 6/22/20, I conducted my first on the water Lake trial with my electric conversion, "Mischief".

Mischief is a home built plywood runabout, currently powered with a Torqeedo 4R outboard.  Specs are below:

LOA:  13' 4" (without motor)

Beam:  5'9"

Weight:  about 300-400#

Draft:  approximately 6-7", with motor up.

Theoretical Hull Speed:  4.9mph

Motor:  Torqeedo 4R electric outboard (with remote steering)

    48V, max 4000W input

Battery:

  Main battery bank:  48V 50Ah eBike battery system from BTR (ordered on Amazon) (approx $900)

  Backup / get home battery:   48V 20Ah eBike Battery system from BTR  (under $500)

Both battery systems were bench tested.  For each test, the battery was fully charged, and then connected to sets of #9006 12V halogen light bulbs (4 bulbs in series gives a 48V load at about 4A).  Time and voltage were recorded periodically until the battery BMS shut down the voltage output from the battery.  Tests were conducted with 4, 8, and 16 bulbs (max was 4 parallel sets of 4 bulbs, approximately 800-900W).  I have the data on these tests, if anyone is interested.

At the lake!!

First test was a static test of running the boat at the boat ramp (the motor needs to be in the water when running).  The motor was run at 1000W, and ran for approximately 45 min before the BMS dropped out, on the 20Ah battery.  The BMS dropped out at about 48V.   (The BMS on the 50Ah battery drops out at around 40V.)

The first "on the water" test lasted for approximately an hour, and used approximately 30-50% of the capacity of the 50Ah battery bank.

Performance of the boat consistently met expectations.  Handling was great.  As long as you're ok with a walking speed cruise - the boat performed very well.

 Volts Amps Watts MPH

 58.2    5.15 300         3

 57.0 6.5         370         3.5

 56.8 8.80 500          3.9

 57.7 10.4 600         4

 56.0 15.71 880         4.9

 57         17.54 1000 5

 56         26.79 1500 5.7

I've attached a couple of pictures of the boat.  Please let me know if they don't come across.

If anyone would like more details, feel free to contact me.

John

Re: [electricboats] House systems - separate or together with drive system?

Pro Chaser DC-DC 36V 48V Voltage Converter Regulator Reducer to 12V 300W 25A | eBay

Pro Chaser DC-DC 36V 48V Voltage Converter Regulator Reducer to 12V 300W 25A | eBay Pro Chaser DC-DC36V 48V Converter Regulator Step-Down to12V 120W 10A. Pro Chaser DC-DC48V 60V 72V Converter Regulator Step-Down to 12V300W 25A. Pro Chaser DC-DC48V 60V 72V Converter Regulator Step-Down to12V 120W 10A.

This is the converter I used. Works fine for me, as I don't really have any real heavy draw stuff on my 12v house bank like wenches etc; but it should still work fine to fill the house bank back up after occasional intermittent heavy amp draw use. 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 11:51 AM, ryanwestbrookcary1@yahoo.com

<ryanwestbrookcary1@yahoo.com> wrote:

  Hello Ryan! Good name! I'm Ryan also. 

On my setup, I knew that my house requirements were sufficient to really need their own bank, so I have 2 qty Grp 27 deep cycles in parallel, and seperable by means of a 3-way batter switch. I did this for the reason previously stated, as to be able to isolate a starting battery for the main engine, in my case an old evinrude 140 converted from b.s. vro to mix. 

The 48v bank for auxillary propulsion is chargeable by 4 qty 100w 12v renology panels, and by a small honda 2200w inverter generator pushing a 48v 25a switching power supply, isolated from the solar cells by large blocking diodes, and being fed parallel into a large analogue relay controlled by a charge controller. 

I ended up getting an "intelligent" 25a 48v to 12v nominal converter and just putting it between them, and thus far it has worked just fine. It simply makes more sense, with my setup anyway, to charge the propulsion bank directly and have keep the house bank topped off. I have to be trying hard to pull 30a from it, except of course when starting the motor; and so the propulsion bank makes the cycle rate on my house bank pretty much non existent when at anchor, and when underway, between the solar array and the little genny, it keeps my big bank pretty stable unless I am at full throttle on the electric outboard and running everything imaginable on the house bank

Make sure that the grounds of the 2 banks are grounded (negative) common and bonded to the metal components of the hull, for safety and galvanic reasons. 

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 10:45 AM, Reuben Trane via groups.io

<rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here's the link for the chargers I purchased - 10A each - I feel since they're on 24/7 and there's power in the battery that the small amp version works for me. About $105 plus shipping - took about a week to arrive.

http://www.eurogroup-gb.com/E1079%2010AMP%20BATTERY%20CHARGER%2048V-12V.pdf