Posted by: Douglas Kay <dougkay8@gmail.com>
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On 40ft loa, you probably need 2 kW - 2.5 or so on a cat/tri for 5 knots+.
Feasible yes, maths great, plan great.
5 kW is huge and will give you great power and even some airco if you want.
One comment/issue maybe:
The very large 32 sq m panel will have huge wracking and tilting and pushing loads in heavy winds - since it is high up and has a big moment arm.
Think 10-20-++ tons, metric, twisting the boat.
A thick torsion box is probably best.
Thick means the vertical-direction sides and stiffeners / ribs need to be tall, not necessarily thick or heavy.
Criss-cross honeycomb, perhaps 25 cm tall.
Plywood would work fine, and you could even have it with large holes for air passage.
Laser-cut, cheap, epoxy impregnated.
Air spacers or gaps might be good in the top structure.
I would plan for main support pillars in say == 150x8 (-6) mm steel tube.
Any steel blasted, and properly painted, or 316L if You can afford it.
If at all possible try to have low free unsupported span, or a central support.
And very very strong mounts well-tied to the structure.
Consider a gust tilting the boat, and the top structures edge going into the water at 6 knots.
You would want the structure to be streamlined and not a ram.
Even then, probably 5 tons++ of force acting on the edge of the structure in a twisting action.
Alternatively, struss structure like construction cranes.
You could use commercial steel prefab pieces, cheap and strong.
Air would pass, and a water contact would have less load.
It might be possible to have somewhat different heights on the panels, perhaps allowing most of the air to pass instead of acting like a big wing or sail.
I would probably use linear guides, and have some, maybe 1 outermost set, of the panels be retractable on the edges.
Just sliding below the other panels.
316L supported rod, igus plastic linear bearings, ideal for this.
They will resist salt water, salt grit, etc and not rust.
The problem with a big flat rigid plane up top is wind catching it ..
and the more it tilts the more force it has.
This has the potential to flip the boat in a second until the top edges touch water, even in calm conditions, with a moderate gust.
On 17/01/2018 07:25, chrispurkiss@bigpond.com [electricboats] wrote:
Hi all. First post. I'm a sailor from Australia. Currently own a nice sailing catamaran that i built. As i get old it is too hard to hoist the main sail and all the trimming and reefing gets too hard. I am planning on building the perfect sailors motor boat basically i am looking at replacing the sails with solar panels. The design will be a trimaran for stability and to make a hull shape that is very slippery. Looking at approx 40 foot LOA with 16 foot BOA.
I hope you guys can check the maths to see if i am being too optimistic in my assumptions.
Area of solar panels 32 sq meters - gives 5 kW system - in low tropics gives 20+ kWH per day.
Propulsion by twin motors in the amas say 10 hp = 7.5 kW gives cruising speed 5 to 6 knots.
Battery pack similar to the one in a tesla car 75 kWH weight of batteries 540 kg. Total weight of boat 3 ton with back up 10 kWH generator for extended cruising.
Does this seem feasible? Does my maths add up?
Chris P
-- -hanermo (cnc designs)
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On 40ft loa, you probably need 2 kW - 2.5 or so on a cat/tri for 5 knots+.
Feasible yes, maths great, plan great.
5 kW is huge and will give you great power and even some airco if you want.
One comment/issue maybe:
The very large 32 sq m panel will have huge wracking and tilting and pushing loads in heavy winds - since it is high up and has a big moment arm.
Think 10-20-++ tons, metric, twisting the boat.
A thick torsion box is probably best.
Thick means the vertical-direction sides and stiffeners / ribs need to be tall, not necessarily thick or heavy.
Criss-cross honeycomb, perhaps 25 cm tall.
Plywood would work fine, and you could even have it with large holes for air passage.
Laser-cut, cheap, epoxy impregnated.
Air spacers or gaps might be good in the top structure.
I would plan for main support pillars in say == 150x8 (-6) mm steel tube.
Any steel blasted, and properly painted, or 316L if You can afford it.
If at all possible try to have low free unsupported span, or a central support.
And very very strong mounts well-tied to the structure.
Consider a gust tilting the boat, and the top structures edge going into the water at 6 knots.
You would want the structure to be streamlined and not a ram.
Even then, probably 5 tons++ of force acting on the edge of the structure in a twisting action.
Alternatively, struss structure like construction cranes.
You could use commercial steel prefab pieces, cheap and strong.
Air would pass, and a water contact would have less load.
It might be possible to have somewhat different heights on the panels, perhaps allowing most of the air to pass instead of acting like a big wing or sail.
I would probably use linear guides, and have some, maybe 1 outermost set, of the panels be retractable on the edges.
Just sliding below the other panels.
316L supported rod, igus plastic linear bearings, ideal for this.
They will resist salt water, salt grit, etc and not rust.
The problem with a big flat rigid plane up top is wind catching it ..
and the more it tilts the more force it has.
This has the potential to flip the boat in a second until the top edges touch water, even in calm conditions, with a moderate gust.
Hi all. First post. I'm a sailor from Australia. Currently own a nice sailing catamaran that i built. As i get old it is too hard to hoist the main sail and all the trimming and reefing gets too hard. I am planning on building the perfect sailors motor boat basically i am looking at replacing the sails with solar panels. The design will be a trimaran for stability and to make a hull shape that is very slippery. Looking at approx 40 foot LOA with 16 foot BOA.
I hope you guys can check the maths to see if i am being too optimistic in my assumptions.
Area of solar panels 32 sq meters - gives 5 kW system - in low tropics gives 20+ kWH per day.
Propulsion by twin motors in the amas say 10 hp = 7.5 kW gives cruising speed 5 to 6 knots.
Battery pack similar to the one in a tesla car 75 kWH weight of batteries 540 kg. Total weight of boat 3 ton with back up 10 kWH generator for extended cruising.
Does this seem feasible? Does my maths add up?
Chris P
-- -hanermo (cnc designs)
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I haven't had any experience with any brand of BLDC/PMAC motor besides Motenergy. I will say that they seem to be great motors, though. However, be aware, very aware, that like most similar motors, there is no integral thrust bearing, and they are absolutely not designed for any axial loading. IOW, you cannot simply couple the motor to a prop shaft with no thrust bearing installed on the shaft. As the prop turns it is pushing the shaft forward (or aft, in reverse!) and that push must not be into the motor or it will quickly self destruct quite spectacularly. The thrust bearing transfers the thrust of the shaft to the hull safely, assuming proper installation and alignment. A prefab reduction gear, whether belt or enclosed gearbox, will contain and function as a thrust bearing. Motenergy makes several motors in 5kw and in the10-12kw range that will run happily from the typical 48v e-boat bank. Most will also run at higher voltages and many that are rated at 72v or 96v have been used in 120-144v nominal systems with no ill effect. They are best ran at rated speed, when running at full power output so loading the motor heavily at low RPM is inadvisable as the internal cooling fan will not be able to do its job. So for these reasons, unless you know what you are doing, a reduction gear of some sort is usually advisable.
Some of the newer Motenergy motors use what is called a sine/cosine encoder instead of the hall sensor array that is more or has been more popular. You have to use the correct controller for these. Mine have all used the hall sensor, and I have ran them with three different Kelly controllers, two square wave and one sine wave. The sine wave controller runs these motors considerably more quietly. Kelly can be difficult to get technical help from due to the language barrier but I like how easy it is to customize the controller. Only a usb-serial converter is needed to interface with a computer. Unforttunately they refuse to port their software to Linux so if you use the superior operating system you are stuck with borrowing a computer to configure your controller. Some also can be configured from an android device, however. I have not tried this. I kept a WinDOHs laptop just for my controller for a while but space is an issue so I ended up tossing it. The other major player in BLDC/PMAC controllers is SevCon and I understand that they are not so simple for a user to configure. Also I may be mistaken but I think Golden makes (or rebrands!) controllers for their motors?
Motenergy motors are air cooled with internal fans. Golden has at least some motors with water cooling. If you will be exceeding current or voltage rating significantly, I would expect a liquid cooled motor to handle it much better.
Lynch motors are designed for direct drive applications. Not sure if they are currently still in production or not. They are more expensive.
Best bang for the buck is probably the Motenergy ME0201014201 which can handle 100a at 48v in sustained operation and can be had for around $400, sometimes less. If you are worried about a cheap motor not standing up to normal use, get a spare like I did. I will say though, I have never had occasion to even open the box that the spare motor shipped in. The 4201 is wound for slower operation than the similar size ME0907. That is neither a bad nor a good thing. It is just something to concern with when selecting the prop and reduction gear you will use. Note that spreadsheets and formulae don't always jive with real world facts. For instance when I went to a bigger prop I thought I should change from 2:1 ratio to a 3:1 gearbox, but my efficiency actually dropped. I tried direct drive with a thrust bearing but even though I was not able to align the system correctly I still saw an increase in system efficiency over the 2:1 gearbox. So be advised that the motor and reduction calculated to give best results may not actually do so, and some tinkering and experimenting are part and parcel of an optimized system.
Kelly phase terminals are labeled A, B, C, and Motenergy phase terminals are labeled W, X, Y. Hall sensor connections are a crap shoot. So if you hook up your motor and it doesn't work properly, you need to try different connections. It will not turn, or it will turn slowly and draw a lot of current, if there is a mismatch. Properly matched, the motor will whizz smoothly with no load attached so better have it bolted down when testing. The rotor inertia will send the case spinning in the opposite direction and it will er, surprise you. Kelly can usually help you get it right the first time since they will specifically configure the controller for a Motenergy motor.
These motors have a 7/8" shaft. So if you will be mating it with a gearbox having a 1" input coupling, or if you will be coupling the motor directly to another 1" shaft, you will need to use a 1/16" thick bushing to bring it up to 1" diameter, and you will need to modify a piece of keystock to fit the two different keyway slots.
The motor is usually mounted via the face of the motor through which the shaft protrudes. The face is compatible to the ANSI "C" face and so these motors are readily interchangable with the same size mount plate cutout and the same bolt hole pattern. The mounting bolts go through the mounting plate and into the motor face. I suspect that the Golden motors are also "C" face motors.
Brushed motors must not be used on a boat having gasoline or propane equipment or accessories onboard. You can guess why, I am sure. But if you will absolutely NOT have such devices onboard, then a brushed motor is worth considering. A pull from a salvaged forklift, maybe?
So, two thumbs up from me on the Motenergy brand BLDC/PMAC hall sensor type motors.
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thanks Dan I will check them out. Bruce
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any one got an opinion on these bldc motors from golden motor tech......or a electric bldc motor they would recommend.... thinking on the 10 kw models.... my boat maybe weighs around 1500 fully loaded not looking to cruise fast but want the available power maybe..... any thoughts.... Bruce
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hey there I think im gonna go with a bldc motor for time to get on the water with a proven system because I plan on doing some long distanes cruising wont have time for trial and error ...... any one have any pro and cons on brands or a reliable brand they had good luck with Thanks Bruce
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any one got an opinion on these bldc motors from golden motor tech......or a electric bldc motor they would recommend.... thinking on the 10 kw models.... my boat maybe weighs around 1500 fully loaded not looking to cruise fast but want the available power maybe..... any thoughts.... Bruce
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AC motors + VFD are usually a great choice, and mostly 220-240V in the
EU/UK, or 440V (same-same).
Imho.
Older treadmill motors used to be DC PM magnet.
I have 10.
180DC 6000 rpm, 2.5 Hp theoretical max.
Nonsense re 2.5 hp.
I also have now a real 2.5 kW ac (servo) motor on my lathe, 2.5 kW
continuous duty output 24x7, aka industrial use.
It is about the same size, maybe 10% bigger than the silly open-frame
treadmill motors.
The old 1.5 kW lathe 220v induction motor was much bigger.
20% bigger section size ?? fora 1.5 kW +/- vs the ac new motor at 2.5 kW.
My Ac servo drive might be similar to what Chris M. refers to.
In any case, such motors will last 10.000+ usage hours in 24x7 use or
whatever, near coolant sprayed all the time in machining.
Imho .. Treadmill motors are fine for very occasional use, esp. lower loads..
The bigger/better commercial treadmill motors are probably fine for any
extended use - as such per power ..
I think none, zero, will last near salt water past 1-3-5 years.
I simply think corrosion will kill them.
Based on 2k machine, 6k+ motors, I looked at.
--
As far as commercial offerings ..
Some people on this list may offer DC motors / controllers from a
commercial marine-type supply.
I have zero personal interest commercially.
But the fact is that the sellers here have excellent results in
technical and commercial terms.
*Some* special DC motor/controller combos are good for marine use.
Some of the ones posting here sell such kit.
They have an excellent rep - and I would expect the products to be
equally good.
There is a lot of evidence that the best marine retrofit kits are great
- as sold by the commercial vendors here.
Extremely good stuff technically has been made since 1940s in sometimes
unusual formats.
The modern DC *marine* motors and controllers seem to be fine.
--
Recap imho - 4 cases:
Cheapest:
1.
Basic DC + controller / treadmill.
Weak on the small ones, good on the commercial/indistrial ones, I think
they will corrode.
2.
Good:
3-phase motor, and VFD.
Use a GFI. Faster if possible std is 15 mha iirc.
Cheap motor, excellent efficiency, endless cheap replacements of motor
and controller.
*Must* use double insulated cable, re: VFD- motor which is a trivial cost.
*Use* proper marine glue+shrink sleeves on connectors, tinned cables,
VFD-motor, typically 2 m length.
Using 200-400V AC is not dangerous at all, as such.
It is *not* dangerous, and a basic gfi will trip, but any high voltage
3-phase installation will usually trigger an investigation re: any
issues/accident etc.
3.
Commercial kits.
Mostly Dc with high amp motors.
Very good from EV boat suppliers.
The directives actually limit DC stuff to 80V- 48V is really pretty safe.
Typical welding and plasma cut is 40-48V.
4.
AC drives etc.
Best technically, not so usual, needs skills or integration.
On 14/01/2018 17:09, Chris Morriss chris.morriss@ouroboros.myzen.co.uk
[electricboats] wrote:
> AFAIK, looking at the controller they use, these are AC drive,
> brushless permanent-magnet motors, rather than old-fashioned AC motors
> used with variable frequency drives.
--
-hanermo (cnc designs)
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