Wednesday, February 28, 2018

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

James, I like the idea of an onboard megger, I haven't seen anything I could fit as a permanent device. Could you mention a brand name or link I could see as an example of a resistance meter? Thanks

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

At 48 volts, The reason why we float the ground is to prevent possible corrosion of the through hulls and propeller.  At higher voltages, the ground is floating for safety and reliability purposes.


Floated ground systems can be monitored for ground faults, whereas grounded systems cannot.  

Floated Ground Systems require double pole breakers throughout.   The negative is treated as a live wire requiring circuit protection.   

I like isolating the 48 volt battery (floated ground)  because it makes it easier to troubleshoot and to monitor.    When you add a Resistance Monitor, you end up having an on board megger for every circuit.    









James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com

On Feb 28, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Michael Ryan mryanqld@gmail.com [electricboats] wrote:

 

Hi All 
Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water I know have the issue of electrical grounding to get my head around. Remember I am a newbie on electrical matters! Wiring diagrams from motor kit suppliers do not show common grounding. I understand the need and appreciated that electrical safety is most important. My previous boat had a very good electrical system/grounding as built and even had a gizmo to isolate the incoming shore power. Had not considered any of this for my project, will have to watch this topic in the user group.  

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 7:05 PM, 'james@deny.org' james@deny.org [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I was not correcting you. Your statement that the consensus of this mailing list was to leave the EV system floating, is probable true. At least by number of posts.  I personally disagree, for low voltage systems, I prefer everything to be earth grounded. Which would follow E-11 recommendations.  

The issue with giving advise one way or the other is that there is no consensus from the boating world at large.  E-11 covers up to 48 volts DC and 220 volts AC and  TE-30 really only covers 300 volts and up.  Leaving us all with no real "professional" guidelines for DC systems above 60 volts but below where TE-30 would cover.  

E-11 is a marvel and I think anyone that boats in the US should get a copy from ABYC's web site, and follow it to the letter. Worth the money..  It will in my opinion make your boat safer.  On the other hand I was not impressed by TE-30 at all. The list time I bought it. It was just a few pages that basically just said "follow automotive standards",  as all production automotive  systems are over 300 volts,  really that is all it covers. 

But let's be clear earth grounding low voltage systems protects people..  It's effects on equipment is debatable and in my opinion of secondary importance. But I would defiantly float a 300+ volt EV system,  I would not want a 300+ DC volt potential on my common earth ground.   

But a 120 volt battery bank,  that gets tricky, not sure I would earth ground that or not. Again I punted when I built my system I purposely keep my battery bank inside E-11 standards IE 48 volts, so I had some standard to follow.  My preference. A lot of people and manufacturers on this list float their EV systems. There preference.  

But everyone should earth ground the rest of the boat systems to comply with E-11,  and that is where a lot of folks on this list may be lacking.  Because when you removed your old engine block, that was most likely your system earth ground. Again a 20 dollar marine shaft brush can bring those systems back into E-11 compliance. 



On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:37 PM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I stand corrected then, but unrepentant. Thanks for the reference.



---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <james@...> wrote :

For 48 volts and less,  I follow the ABYC E-11 recommendations and have a common ground between all systems.  At higher voltages ABYC TE-30 says keep them separate.  

I personally went with a 48 volt system because I wanted to be able to have a common ground. I don't like having different potentials between different systems that I or a swimmer nearby could be a bridge path between.

More important then if you bridge the two DC grounds together, make sure your old AC system still has earth ground. Most marine systems used the engine block via the shaft to ground to earth.  If your boat does not have another path, once you removed the old engine your entire ground system may be isolated from earth.  

If so a cheap 35 dollar shaft brush will re-earth your system.  See my earth ground bellow:









--
Kind regards Mick 0414 264 312


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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

Hi All 
Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water I know have the issue of electrical grounding to get my head around. Remember I am a newbie on electrical matters! Wiring diagrams from motor kit suppliers do not show common grounding. I understand the need and appreciated that electrical safety is most important. My previous boat had a very good electrical system/grounding as built and even had a gizmo to isolate the incoming shore power. Had not considered any of this for my project, will have to watch this topic in the user group.  

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 7:05 PM, 'james@deny.org' james@deny.org [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I was not correcting you. Your statement that the consensus of this mailing list was to leave the EV system floating, is probable true. At least by number of posts.  I personally disagree, for low voltage systems, I prefer everything to be earth grounded. Which would follow E-11 recommendations.  

The issue with giving advise one way or the other is that there is no consensus from the boating world at large.  E-11 covers up to 48 volts DC and 220 volts AC and  TE-30 really only covers 300 volts and up.  Leaving us all with no real "professional" guidelines for DC systems above 60 volts but below where TE-30 would cover.  

E-11 is a marvel and I think anyone that boats in the US should get a copy from ABYC's web site, and follow it to the letter. Worth the money..  It will in my opinion make your boat safer.  On the other hand I was not impressed by TE-30 at all. The list time I bought it. It was just a few pages that basically just said "follow automotive standards",  as all production automotive  systems are over 300 volts,  really that is all it covers. 

But let's be clear earth grounding low voltage systems protects people..  It's effects on equipment is debatable and in my opinion of secondary importance. But I would defiantly float a 300+ volt EV system,  I would not want a 300+ DC volt potential on my common earth ground.   

But a 120 volt battery bank,  that gets tricky, not sure I would earth ground that or not. Again I punted when I built my system I purposely keep my battery bank inside E-11 standards IE 48 volts, so I had some standard to follow.  My preference. A lot of people and manufacturers on this list float their EV systems. There preference.  

But everyone should earth ground the rest of the boat systems to comply with E-11,  and that is where a lot of folks on this list may be lacking.  Because when you removed your old engine block, that was most likely your system earth ground. Again a 20 dollar marine shaft brush can bring those systems back into E-11 compliance. 



On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:37 PM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I stand corrected then, but unrepentant. Thanks for the reference.



---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <james@...> wrote :

For 48 volts and less,  I follow the ABYC E-11 recommendations and have a common ground between all systems.  At higher voltages ABYC TE-30 says keep them separate.  

I personally went with a 48 volt system because I wanted to be able to have a common ground. I don't like having different potentials between different systems that I or a swimmer nearby could be a bridge path between.

More important then if you bridge the two DC grounds together, make sure your old AC system still has earth ground. Most marine systems used the engine block via the shaft to ground to earth.  If your boat does not have another path, once you removed the old engine your entire ground system may be isolated from earth.  

If so a cheap 35 dollar shaft brush will re-earth your system.  See my earth ground bellow:







--
Kind regards Mick 0414 264 312

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Posted by: Michael Ryan <mryanqld@gmail.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

 

Hi Eric
Yes I have seen the blog on Matthews electric Nordic 17 but to tell the truth I am still getting my head around electrical terminology. Matthews boat uses a Perm 132 and direct drive. My boat may have slightly less displacement than Matthews, but they are identical hulls.. The 5kW drive you are using in your Bermuda is that a Thunderstruck kit and if so what is the motor model. Does it power your boat adequately? My prop and shaft is currently at the Marine Engineers. They are scanning and polishing the propeller, straightening the shaft, fitting a new cutless bearing and shaft seal. I haven't got the propeller data back yet but verbally they have advised that the propeller is good quality and perfect for the boat. I provided the ME1305 motor data I had which was very little and verbally I was advised to go to at least 8Kw.  No big deal I could always go up to the 10kW kit but I suspect the 5kW kit would be fine as advised by the King. When I get the prop data back it will be easier to make an informed decision if the 5kW motor is OK.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:57 AM, ewdysar@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hey Mick,


When I looked up a Nordic 17 to get a little more info about your boat, I found this website about a Nordic 17 electric conversion.  http://www.sleeper.apana.org..au/boat/  

This Nordic 17 conversion is running at 36V, so I adjusted his performance statistics for 48V and converted his speed readings to knots (because these are boats after all) 

So it looks like he got 3.3kts @ 375W (or 7.5A @ 48V), 4kts @ 750W (15A @ 48V) and 5kts @ 1875W (37.5A @ 48V).  So now we've got some observed performance data that we can use for battery performance calculations (going with the assumption that this data is correct and your boat will perform similarly).

Like all known battery LiFePO4 batteries are affected by Peukert's Effect, albeit to a small amount.  Luckily, it is not difficult to accurately predict virtually any battery's performance using the rated capacity and an accurate Peukert's Exponent for the battery type.  I have been using a Peukert's Exponent of 1.03 for the 8kWh LiFePO4 battery bank that I have been running with since 2010.  Real world observations have confirmed this PE value to be correct and that my batteries are still operating above the rated capacity.

We have all heard that lithium batteries can be safely discharged to lower states of charge than L/A batteries, the common assumption is for an 80% depth of discharge is OK for LiFePO4.  With your 48V 200Ah battery, you've got about 8000Wh of usable storage.  I know that you asked for a 6 hour runtime, 4kts will give you about 10hrs of capacity (40nm) and 5kts will give you about 4 hours of runtime (20nm) .  Your 6hr discharge rate is 26A which may be about 4.6kts (27.5nm) (I'm taking an educated guess on the "watts to knots" conversion for 26A, based on the other performance data given here.)

Once you get your project up and running, please take some time to measure your actual performance.  First of all, it gives you excellent baseline data that you can use to judge the efficacy of future improvements and to see if your boat is gradually developing any performance issues.  I spend a couple of hours once every season to check my boat's performance to make sure that everything is still meeting my original observations.

Your conversion seems like a fun project.  

Fair winds and calms seas,
Eric
1964 Bermuda 30, 5kW drive, 8kWh lithium battery bank
Marina del Rey, CA



 


 




--
Kind regards Mick 0414 264 312

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Posted by: Michael Ryan <mryanqld@gmail.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

I was not correcting you. Your statement that the consensus of this mailing list was to leave the EV system floating, is probable true. At least by number of posts.  I personally disagree, for low voltage systems, I prefer everything to be earth grounded. Which would follow E-11 recommendations.  

The issue with giving advise one way or the other is that there is no consensus from the boating world at large.  E-11 covers up to 48 volts DC and 220 volts AC and  TE-30 really only covers 300 volts and up.  Leaving us all with no real "professional" guidelines for DC systems above 60 volts but below where TE-30 would cover.  

E-11 is a marvel and I think anyone that boats in the US should get a copy from ABYC's web site, and follow it to the letter. Worth the money..  It will in my opinion make your boat safer.  On the other hand I was not impressed by TE-30 at all. The list time I bought it. It was just a few pages that basically just said "follow automotive standards",  as all production automotive  systems are over 300 volts,  really that is all it covers. 

But let's be clear earth grounding low voltage systems protects people..  It's effects on equipment is debatable and in my opinion of secondary importance. But I would defiantly float a 300+ volt EV system,  I would not want a 300+ DC volt potential on my common earth ground.   

But a 120 volt battery bank,  that gets tricky, not sure I would earth ground that or not. Again I punted when I built my system I purposely keep my battery bank inside E-11 standards IE 48 volts, so I had some standard to follow.  My preference. A lot of people and manufacturers on this list float their EV systems. There preference.  

But everyone should earth ground the rest of the boat systems to comply with E-11,  and that is where a lot of folks on this list may be lacking.  Because when you removed your old engine block, that was most likely your system earth ground. Again a 20 dollar marine shaft brush can bring those systems back into E-11 compliance. 



On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:37 PM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I stand corrected then, but unrepentant. Thanks for the reference.



---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <james@...> wrote :

For 48 volts and less,  I follow the ABYC E-11 recommendations and have a common ground between all systems.  At higher voltages ABYC TE-30 says keep them separate.  

I personally went with a 48 volt system because I wanted to be able to have a common ground. I don't like having different potentials between different systems that I or a swimmer nearby could be a bridge path between.

More important then if you bridge the two DC grounds together, make sure your old AC system still has earth ground. Most marine systems used the engine block via the shaft to ground to earth.  If your boat does not have another path, once you removed the old engine your entire ground system may be isolated from earth.  

If so a cheap 35 dollar shaft brush will re-earth your system.  See my earth ground bellow:




__._,_.___

Posted by: "james@deny.org" <james@deny.org>
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Tuesday, February 27, 2018

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

I stand corrected then, but unrepentant. Thanks for the reference.



---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <james@...> wrote :

For 48 volts and less,  I follow the ABYC E-11 recommendations and have a common ground between all systems.  At higher voltages ABYC TE-30 says keep them separate.  

I personally went with a 48 volt system because I wanted to be able to have a common ground. I don't like having different potentials between different systems that I or a swimmer nearby could be a bridge path between.

More important then if you bridge the two DC grounds together, make sure your old AC system still has earth ground. Most marine systems used the engine block via the shaft to ground to earth.  If your boat does not have another path, once you removed the old engine your entire ground system may be isolated from earth.  

If so a cheap 35 dollar shaft brush will re-earth your system.  See my earth ground bellow:




__._,_.___
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

 

I have a 3.75 Kw gol
​f cart motor modified to fit directly onto a prop shaft or through a gearbox, comes with Curtis controller. The modification alone cost $600. $950 


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 6:57 PM, ewdysar@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hey Mick,


When I looked up a Nordic 17 to get a little more info about your boat, I found this website about a Nordic 17 electric conversion.  http://www.sleeper.apana.org.au/boat/  

This Nordic 17 conversion is running at 36V, so I adjusted his performance statistics for 48V and converted his speed readings to knots (because these are boats after all) 

So it looks like he got 3.3kts @ 375W (or 7..5A @ 48V), 4kts @ 750W (15A @ 48V) and 5kts @ 1875W (37.5A @ 48V).  So now we've got some observed performance data that we can use for battery performance calculations (going with the assumption that this data is correct and your boat will perform similarly).

Like all known battery LiFePO4 batteries are affected by Peukert's Effect, albeit to a small amount.  Luckily, it is not difficult to accurately predict virtually any battery's performance using the rated capacity and an accurate Peukert's Exponent for the battery type.  I have been using a Peukert's Exponent of 1.03 for the 8kWh LiFePO4 battery bank that I have been running with since 2010.  Real world observations have confirmed this PE value to be correct and that my batteries are still operating above the rated capacity.

We have all heard that lithium batteries can be safely discharged to lower states of charge than L/A batteries, the common assumption is for an 80% depth of discharge is OK for LiFePO4.  With your 48V 200Ah battery, you've got about 8000Wh of usable storage.  I know that you asked for a 6 hour runtime, 4kts will give you about 10hrs of capacity (40nm) and 5kts will give you about 4 hours of runtime (20nm) .  Your 6hr discharge rate is 26A which may be about 4.6kts (27.5nm) (I'm taking an educated guess on the "watts to knots" conversion for 26A, based on the other performance data given here.)

Once you get your project up and running, please take some time to measure your actual performance.  First of all, it gives you excellent baseline data that you can use to judge the efficacy of future improvements and to see if your boat is gradually developing any performance issues.  I spend a couple of hours once every season to check my boat's performance to make sure that everything is still meeting my original observations.

Your conversion seems like a fun project.  

Fair winds and calms seas,
Eric
1964 Bermuda 30, 5kW drive, 8kWh lithium battery bank
Marina del Rey, CA



 


 


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Re:[Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

I ordered the shaft brush you recommended. Just so I'm clear, you are saying the 120AC ground should be isolated from low voltage DC grounds and I should tie the 48vDC and 12vDC grounds together, then connect that to the Shaft Brush? I was under the impression the AC and DC grounds we're supposed to be tied together, so any stray current goes to earth via the shore power ground line for safety. I do have a galvanic isolater on my system just after shore power plug, then ground runs to AC panel ground bus bar, which is connected to DC ground bus bar.

Sent from my Huawei Mobile



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations
From: "'james@deny.org' james@deny.org [electricboats]"
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
CC:


 

For 48 volts and less,  I follow the ABYC E-11 recommendations and have a common ground between all systems.  At higher voltages ABYC TE-30 says keep them separate.  

I personally went with a 48 volt system because I wanted to be able to have a common ground. I don't like having different potentials between different systems that I or a swimmer nearby could be a bridge path between.

More important then if you bridge the two DC grounds together, make sure your old AC system still has earth ground. Most marine systems used the engine block via the shaft to ground to earth.  If your boat does not have another path, once you removed the old engine your entire ground system may be isolated from earth.  

If so a cheap 35 dollar shaft brush will re-earth your system.  See my earth ground bellow:




On Feb 27, 2018, at 10:10 AM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

My 48v system is not grounded. General consensus seems to be that this is best. As for grounding the controller, I think tech support at Sevcon can provide a better answer on whether it should be grounded or not. My Kelly controller is not grounded. My motor casing and rotor shaft are incidentally grounded, of course. However phase windings, power supply cables and 48v bank are all floating. Some owners also use a flex coupling to isolate the motor shaft and casing from ground as well, though I don't think it is necessary.



---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mattkaine@...> wrote :

So I just installed a 10kw motor Kit from Trunderstruck EV on my 1976 Islander I-28. I am very happy with the install, works awesome. I am however not sure on best method for grounding new power system. So the current set up is this...I have 2x 12v house batteries with a common ground bus, my 120vAC shore power connects its ground to same ground bus. Now where I am not sure...the 48v motor system consists of 8x 6vDC batteries in series>Power relay>Sevcon Gen4 Controller>motor. Ground bypasses the relay and goes straight to Sevcon. Should I connect 48v bank  to 12v ground bus? Should I run a separate ground from motor frame to ground bus?

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric motor Grounding locations

 

Whole sale marine currently has marine shaft brushes on sale for 20 bucks: 




On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:12 AM, "james@deny.org" <james@deny.org> wrote:

For 48 volts and less,  I follow the ABYC E-11 recommendations and have a common ground between all systems.  At higher voltages ABYC TE-30 says keep them separate.  

I personally went with a 48 volt system because I wanted to be able to have a common ground. I don't like having different potentials between different systems that I or a swimmer nearby could be a bridge path between.

More important then if you bridge the two DC grounds together, make sure your old AC system still has earth ground. Most marine systems used the engine block via the shaft to ground to earth.  If your boat does not have another path, once you removed the old engine your entire ground system may be isolated from earth.  

If so a cheap 35 dollar shaft brush will re-earth your system.  See my earth ground bellow:




On Feb 27, 2018, at 10:10 AM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

My 48v system is not grounded. General consensus seems to be that this is best. As for grounding the controller, I think tech support at Sevcon can provide a better answer on whether it should be grounded or not. My Kelly controller is not grounded. My motor casing and rotor shaft are incidentally grounded, of course. However phase windings, power supply cables and 48v bank are all floating. Some owners also use a flex coupling to isolate the motor shaft and casing from ground as well, though I don't think it is necessary.



---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mattkaine@...> wrote :

So I just installed a 10kw motor Kit from Trunderstruck EV on my 1976 Islander I-28. I am very happy with the install, works awesome. I am however not sure on best method for grounding new power system. So the current set up is this...I have 2x 12v house batteries with a common ground bus, my 120vAC shore power connects its ground to same ground bus. Now where I am not sure...the 48v motor system consists of 8x 6vDC batteries in series>Power relay>Sevcon Gen4 Controller>motor. Ground bypasses the relay and goes straight to Sevcon. Should I connect 48v bank  to 12v ground bus? Should I run a separate ground from motor frame to ground bus?

__._,_.___

Posted by: "james@deny.org" <james@deny.org>
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With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

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