Monday, September 21, 2015

[Electric Boats] Re: Charger Replacement Recommendations?

 

Hey Ernie, 


Vendor alert: We sell an adjustable 48v charger with output between 25 and 35 amps. It also is programmable so if you later want to upgrade to lithium you can change the output voltage and charge curve to meet your needs. I think you'll find it's a cost competitive solution compared to the Elcon. Note that this does not offer balancing for each 12v battery. See link here:

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[Electric Boats] Re: Charger Replacement Recommendations?

 

I have never seen ANY smart charger that does a proper equalizing charge. That would be 62v for a 48v bank, by the way. I put a full manual charger together for equalization. Note to myself: its about time to do that to my propulsion bank.

I think you will get off lighter, price wise, by buying a 4 bank charger than a straight 48v charger. If there is room, keep your old charger as a backup. If one charging circuit of your new charger goes out, you can use one of the surviving ones in your old charger in a pinch. Or if you have a 12v house bank it could serve as a backup charger for that. Anyway I see 4 bank chargers of respectable size on sale often at Cabelas or Worst Marine quite often.

I had a Chinese 48v charger that came with my Kelly controller setup, but it went north on me and I bought one of those 4 bank chargers from West Marine to replace it and it has held up pretty good so far.

Meanwhile I picked up a nice 3kva Variac, a 100a 250v bridge rectifier, and an ammeter, for manual charging. Works great. Needs constant monitoring of course, and extra safety precautions due to not having an isolation transformer but it will gitter done. I have already brought two "dead" batteries back to life with it. The nice thing is I can charge just about anything with it because the voltage is constantly variable. My propulsion bank is 8 6v golf cart batteries and I can equalize them one at a time, or do an 8v or 12v batt, a bank up to 96v, whatevah.

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Sunday, September 20, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Charger Replacement Recommendations?

 


VENDOR INFORMATION:   THE ELECTRIC PROPELLER COMPANY, SANTA BARBARA, CA.   



Effective charging at recommended voltages with proper time and current limitations extends battery life and maintains battery capacity throughout battery life.   


Electroprop's Top of the line Lead Acid charging systems is now capable of:  


1)  maintaining or exceeding the predictive life cycles of the batteries in use, 

2)  maintaining the maximum rated capacity of the battery throughout the life of the battery,

3)  maintain the safety of the battery by preventing thermals, 

4)  provides information on the capacity and health of the battery pack

5)  handles end of battery life gracefully 

6)  programmable for future size and chemistry of batteries.   

7)  maintain isolation





LEAD ACID

There are 3 main types of Lead Acid Batteries being used aboard recreational vessels, flooded, AGM and Advanced AGM.   We only recommend AGM and Pure Lead AGM technology.


FLOODED

In no circumstances do we recommend flooded lead acid batteries because the batteries generate hydrogen gas.   Most compartments (that batteries are mounted in) do not have enough ventilation to dissipate the hydrogen gas and this can result in a dangerous situation occurring where the battery blows up.   The other main reason why we stay away from flooded lead acid is due to the inefficiency of the battery under load and charging.   This results in the battery getting hot during a high current discharge.    This also results in far higher energy use overall.   

AGM

AGM batteries from reputable manufactures are known for long service life when charged correctly.   

Due to inaccuracies in the manufacturing processes, batteries age differently and the amp hour capacity of the battery changes uniquely to the battery.   This can lead to differing battery voltages, which need correction.    This can be accomplished by battery balancers for light current charging like solar, or through the use of one battery charger per battery.    

It really is the luck of the draw if batteries stay in balance over their lifetime.    

We are concerned with what happens at the end of the batteries life for safety reasons.   If batteries are not monitored and controlled on the individual battery level, at the end of the batteries life the voltage of the weakest battery will become spongy, going higher than the rest during charging, and lower than the rest during discharging.   Preventing high voltages on weak batteries at end of battery life is important to insure the safety of the system.   The onus is on the boat's owner if the system does not do so automatically, so vigilantly monitor your batteries manually!    Get yourself a voltage meter.   Sears has a great one with a current clamp at a reasonable price.   

4 bank battery chargers rarely accomplish their rated charging currents.   As these chargers heat up, the charger reduces current to prevent thermal issues.   Some 15 amp chargers (per battery)  in actuality only produce half that amount during long charging periods.  

AGM batteries have minimum charging requirements if you want to obtain the manufacturers cycle life.  7 amps per battery, in most cases will result in the derating of the cycle life of the battery.   Depending on how much you use your boat, this may or may not be an issue.

4 bank chargers do not look at the individual battery temperatures.   If one battery is located in a different ambient temperature environment, then these chargers cannot do proper temperature compensation.   Without a temp sensor on each battery, it is possible to overheat the battery, most likely at the end of the batteries life.    

Many AGM batteries require a charge of 20% of the amp hour capacity of the battery or more to obtain advertised cycle life.    


BATTERY BALANCERS

Battery balancers shunt up to .7 amps between neighboring batteries.   You need three of them in a 48 volt system.   They have the added advantages of monitoring for errors in the battery bank by triggering an alarm if any two batteries differ in voltage by more than .2 of a volt.    We hook this alarm up to the solar charge controller such that the charge controller is only enabled when the alarm is off, thus preventing over charging of any one battery in the string.    


DEDICATED CHARGERS

The simplest and most cost effective way of perfectly charging and monitoring batteries is to use one battery charger per battery with dedicated temp sensor and network capability.    The chargers we use give accurate information on the state of each battery in the string over a Canbus network to a touchscreen monitor.    


INFORMATION

Since each battery bank in series is only as good as its weakest battery, this information is critical for safe operation of the vessel, especially when the battery starts failing nearing the end of battery life.   


OPTIONAL CANBUS NETWORK


Each battery gets its own dedicated temperature sensor with temperature compensation, monitoring, and alarm.    When you are dependent on each and every battery, this information is great to have on board.   You don't have to wonder each time you take your boat out whats going on with your energy source. 


AC DISTRIBUTION

Individual chargers can be mounted near where the batteries are, and AC routed to them easily.    Be aware that the initial cost does include good AC distribution.     Our charging system is inclusive of AC distribution in a sealed box protected by an RCBO breaker at 30 milliamps fault trip and 30 amps over current trip settings.   

National electric code derates Shorepower AC circuit ampacity by 20% for continuous currents longer than 4 hours.    What this means to us, is a a 30 amp AC circuit should not exceed 24 amps AC if the charger will be on for over 4 hours.   This is a wise rule, worth noting and may be the bottleneck for a larger battery and charging system.   


OPTIONS

The chargers we use have the additional capability of monitoring and alarming critical battery conditions.     You can start with the 4 chargers and AC distribution box first, then add the monitoring and networking at a later date.   If different batteries are used in the future, you can reprogram the chargers at that time by adding a USB adapter for your laptop.    



PURE LEAD BATTERIES

When considering your next batteries  consider Pure Lead Batteries.    Our pure lead batteries are the best in the world.   They have modified electrochemistry for partial state of charge operation.    Carbon electrodes and specially formulated electrolyte make the best possible battery for the  marine environment.    

Make sure that the charging system that you use is adequate for the pure lead battery that you choose.    Some pure lead batteries require as much as 40% of their amp hour capacity in bulk charging to meet their advertised cycle life.    

During partial state of charge charging our pure lead batteries are operating in excess of 97 percent charging efficiency, rivaling even Lithium for Charge Efficiency.   

Overall cycle life is near double what you have been getting from standard AGM, yet they are about the same cost overall, making them the best battery deal on the market today in terms of cost per cycle and cost per year of ownership.    Electroprop's pure lead batteries are capable of 3,000 cycles at 30% d.o.d, 950 cycles at 50% d.o.d, and 450 cycles at 100% d.o.d.     You probably wont run into the cycle life of these batteries during your ownership of your boat.     Additionally these batteries are designed with a 10 year float life.    

Pure lead batteries are the safest on the market as well.    The battery grids do not internally corrode making it impossible to have a shorted cell,( the achilles heal of standard AGM technology.)    The end of battery life is graceful.    

Electroprop's pure lead batteries are manufactured in the United States.      


CHARGING ALGORITHM  

The better you charge any battery, the longer they last.   Absorption time needs to be calculated and truncated at the proper time and/or current.   Voltages need to be perfect for bulk, absorption, and float.    Minimum charging requirements need to be met.    The deeper you plan to discharge your battery, the bigger your charging system should be to make sure the plates get desulfated properly during deep discharge.    


KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR BATTERIES

If you do opt to charge with a 48 volt charger without a method for balancing, then to maintain safety you need to be vigilant in monitoring the battery bank and know and understand your batteries and realize that the batteries are changing as they age.   You can do this with the use of a voltmeter and keep a log of the change over time.    Monitor the batteries during deep discharge for a load test, and while the batteries are charging at absorption voltage.    If the batteries start going out of balance, without a balancing method they will quickly age and fail.    All of the batteries may fail due to the incorrect charging voltages of an unbalanced battery pack.   



ELECTROPROP'S LEAD ACID BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM.

We can build these systems up to 100 amps per battery if necessary which can be used for hybrid operation from an AC generator.    All the while, all the batteries are kept safe and last the longest possible time.   

With dedicated chargers on each battery it is possible to replace only one battery at a time.    

Having all the information about your batteries available all the time lets you better understand the capabilities of your electric boat.    We are truly lucky to live in a day that all of this is now possible.    



INHERENT VALUE

Some batteries could last twice as long or more simply by accurately maintaining the charging voltage.    I would rather have a set of batteries with BMS than two sets of batteries any day!    


Contact me off list if you are interested in a quote.   We will also be offering our Lead Acid Battery Management system as a standalone product in the near future, so keep an eye on electroprop.com for pricing.    

 
Be kind to your batteries and your batteries will be kind to you!  



Be Safe, Efficient and Powerful,   



Yours sincerely,  


James




James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com









On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:33 PM, ernestgalvan@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:

 

I have an Ericson 30+ with a Thoosa 9K motor.  My only charging is done with shore power.  My charger, a QuadPro has died. Well, half-died It's 4 12V chargers in a package, and 2 out of 4 are dead.  


What do people here like for replacement?  Another QuadPro?  Something that instead would charge the whole 48 bank instead of charging each 12V battery separately?  (Battery is made up of four 4D 12v 198 Amp Hour AGMs.)  

I would like to maximize options like adding solar or running off a portable generator like Bianka does.  Does that impact my charger options? 


Any thoughts on Iota?  OnNoco GeniusDSR Industries?  DualPro Eagle?  Others I have not thought of? 


The general topic of charging the whole 48V bank versus each battery?  If you do that do you use a separate 4 bank charger for equalization?   


--Ernie Galvan


S/V Zenergy




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Posted by: James Lambden <james@electroprop.com>
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Saturday, September 19, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric Ericson 27 Long Beach California

 

go Jerry!  I took out the diesel tank and motor in my Cat-27, replacing with 10 hp electric....got any tips on removing the stale old diesel oil smell? nothing seems to kill that stink
 
                     Bill Hopen   -  www.billhopen.com
       Hopen Studio Inc -  227 Main St., Sutton WV 26601
          304 -765-5611                  billhopen@yahoo.com


From: "Jerry Nevins jnevins@jnevins.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric Ericson 27 Long Beach California

 
Congratulations Scott!  You are an inspiration... I will be interested to see what kind of range/hull speed specs you Ericson will achieve with that set up...  

Jerry



On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 11:06 AM, scottcoo@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from scottcoo@gmail.com [electricboats] included below]
I had a milestone yesterday with the conversion of my Ericson 27... sea trials with the new electric motor! Yeah!  As many have said the biggest challenge can be the removal of the old diesel.  And this held true for me as well.  Did a haul out which included bottom paint, top paint, diesel out, tank out, wires, cables, hoses, out, out, out, un-needed thru holes patched, prop and shaft cleaning, zincs, cutlass bearing, stuffing box replacement, cleaned and painted engine compartment... about 2 weeks of hard, but satisfying work spread over a 3 week period.  I have a partner helping with the boat restoration, so it wasn't all me.  Then installed the new electric motor which in comparison was nothing.  The most challenging part was laying out the motor mounts (reused the old diesel mounts) to align with the prop shaft, but since the motor + mount + gear reduction weighed slightly more than 60lbs, it was a breeze compared to wrangling into alignment the old  250lbs diesel.  Then it was time for a break and to stop paying boat yard fees, so we dropped it back into the water and I ordered the batteries and charger.  I have attached a couple photos, some mounting and wire bundling still needs to happen along with a battery case that goes where the old gas tank.  I also have a short movie (MOV) that I can send to anyone interested (not a Spielberg).

Below are the parts that I used for those looking to jump into the electrical boating world.  And please note, that this is not a recommendation for any of the parts as of yet.  One sea trial does not make a glowing review, but so far I am very happy with the parts and the service from the companies I dealt with.

Stuffing Box replacement:  PSS dripless Shaft Seal (not a drip so far)
Engine stuff:   ThunderstruckEV.com which included (5kw sailboat kit, Mount and Gear Reduction, Sevcon Clearview display
Battery stuff:   ElectricYachts.com (4) 105 AH Lifeline AGM's, QuickCharge 48v charger

As for the sea trials, it was a little bit of toodling around the marina, getting familiar with the controls, speed, checking for leaks, vibrations, unnatural noises.  Then a slightly longer trek out into the sound of about 1.5nm. The Sevcon display showed about a 95% full "tank" charge on return.  I was taking it easy, no high revs or shooting for hull speed, so I am very optimistic that the 105Ah battery pack will do what I need at this stage of sailboat ownership.  My fallback is to buy the tiny Honda 2000 generator for a longer trip up Puget Sound, although there are enough marina's along the way (South Puget Sound north to the San Juan Islands) that I think an overnight stay at a guest dock here and there might let me recharge all along the way (not sure about that yet).

The battery sizing was difficult for me, so many variables.  So I took a shot in the dark and bought the 105ah AGM's,  The battery dimensions, weight and amp hours all played a role in my decision.  Time will tell if that was a good decision.

A final note to those following the electric conversion path, one of the other members on this board suggested taking my time in making the conversion, (two years).  I think that was excellent advice, tossing in some patience let me research and plan without feeling pressured, although at times it was tough to sit at the marina while others were out playing in the wind and waves.  

Thanks to everyone on this message board, without this kind of support I never would have tried this conversion.  So even if I didn't correspond with you directly, I expect that I read your posting.

Cheers,
-Scott






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Re: [Electric Boats] Charger Replacement Recommendations?

 

I have 48v system of 4 identical 12v 50ah batteries hooked in series  (wheelchair deep cycle types).   but   to recharge, I break the clip link in the center, this gives me essentially two 24v series battery packs,  I then hook up a used 24volt wheel chair battery charger to both packs at once....works great, auto shut off when topped up

if all your cells are identical you can charge them this way....doesn't work well to have disimilar 12v hooked in series, the charge won't evenly bring up both batteries and may stress the smaller one (so I've been told)
 
                     Bill Hopen   -  www.billhopen.com
       Hopen Studio Inc -  227 Main St., Sutton WV 26601
          304 -765-5611                  billhopen@yahoo.com


From: "ernestgalvan@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 1:36 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Charger Replacement Recommendations?

 
I have an Ericson 30+ with a Thoosa 9K motor.  My only charging is done with shore power.  My charger, a QuadPro has died. Well, half-died It's 4 12V chargers in a package, and 2 out of 4 are dead.  
What do people here like for replacement?  Another QuadPro?  Something that instead would charge the whole 48 bank instead of charging each 12V battery separately?  (Battery is made up of four 4D 12v 198 Amp Hour AGMs.)  
I would like to maximize options like adding solar or running off a portable generator like Bianka does.  Does that impact my charger options? 
Any thoughts on Iota?  Or Noco GeniusDSR Industries?  DualPro Eagle?  Others I have not thought of? 
The general topic of charging the whole 48V bank versus each battery?  If you do that do you use a separate 4 bank charger for equalization?   
--Ernie Galvan
S/V Zenergy



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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Solar Catamaran Project

 

Fuses and fuse blocks are cheap I would use one on each leg,  The generators would normally go to the common bus bars.  

On Sep 11, 2015, at 6:12 AM, albert682@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Group,

The attachment shows what I have so far for electrical layout.  I'm not sure how to arrange the shunts for individual amp meters for both the Rayeo Electric Outboards.  I'm not sure where to plug the generators into.  I could go directly into the controller with the solar panels then all three generators would show up under the volt and amp hour gauges on the controller box.  Also should the generators each have their own fuse?

Arden

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Solar Catamaran Project

 

You should not need any short MC4 cables the panels come with 2) 2 foot long MC4 built in to them,  the only MC4 cables you need to by will be the two long runs. I would buy those the largest gauge you can to keep line lose at a minimum.  

As for the panel layout most charge controllers have a minimum cut off voltage under which they no longer charge regardless if there is amps available or not,  so a string of two 24v panels may not have enough voltage to meet the controller minimum in the morning and evening,  I would make the strings as large as you can with out going over the max open circuits voltage of the controller,  so say the max open voltage of your controller is 120 volts , and you have 24 volt panels,  then three panels in series  would have nominal voltage of 72 volt and most likely have a max open voltage of less then 120 volts,  and would always be above 48 volts when they are generating useful amps.  You would need to read the label on the back of you panels to verify all the above is correct.  As well as the charge controller manual,  but 2) 24 volt panels in series might not make enough voltage to get over the voltage threshold on your controller.  If I where would double check these numbers. 


They make CANBUS to USB dongles,  those would be a good way to see the raw data, also NMEA2000 is basically a subset of CANBUS so a lot of marine gear would "see" some to the BMS messages and may show them as values on universal displays.  Normally as batteries, the BMS maker may have list of messages they send and devices they know read them correctly . 

On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:04 AM, albert682@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I have updated the layout diagram.  Most if not all components are purchased already.  It is the small items that have not been acquired yet but they do add up that is why I am asking for help in assuring that the layout is correct. 

When you start to add up the cost of combiner boxes and #1/0 gauge cable and 100amp dc amp meters and shunts I don't care to order incorrectly.

Also I need to know how to access the can bus on my BMS.  There has to be an easy way to get that data.  I'm going to take apart the grill over the board in the contactor box and see if there is an outlet.

The thing that bothers me with this layout is that if for some reason the contactor trips because of any faults with the QANBUSS BMS then I would be lucky to only blow a fuse in the 440HVA or so they reiterate at the Missouri Wind website and videos.

Also does anyone make a MC4 cable calculator as I'm having a hard time calculat ing the number of connectors I need and where to get the seemingly short ones from?

Arden

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