T-Pain Is On A Boat

Monday, February 26, 2018

[Electric Boats] Electric motor Grounding locations

So I just installed a 10kw motor Kit from Trunderstruck EV on my 1976 Islander I-28. I am very happy with the install, works awesome. I am however not sure on best method for grounding new power system. So the current set up is this...I have 2x 12v house batteries with a common ground bus, my 120vAC shore power connects its ground to same ground bus. Now where I am not sure...the 48v motor system consists of 8x 6vDC batteries in series>Power relay>Sevcon Gen4 Controller>motor. Ground bypasses the relay and goes straight to Sevcon. Should I connect 48v bank to 12v ground bus? Should I run a separate ground from motor frame to ground bus?

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Posted by: mattkaine@hotmail.com

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

Hey Mick,

When I looked up a Nordic 17 to get a little more info about your boat, I found this website about a Nordic 17 electric conversion. http://www.sleeper.apana.org.au/boat/

This Nordic 17 conversion is running at 36V, so I adjusted his performance statistics for 48V and converted his speed readings to knots (because these are boats after all)

So it looks like he got 3.3kts @ 375W (or 7.5A @ 48V), 4kts @ 750W (15A @ 48V) and 5kts @ 1875W (37.5A @ 48V). So now we've got some observed performance data that we can use for battery performance calculations (going with the assumption that this data is correct and your boat will perform similarly).

Like all known battery LiFePO4 batteries are affected by Peukert's Effect, albeit to a small amount. Luckily, it is not difficult to accurately predict virtually any battery's performance using the rated capacity and an accurate Peukert's Exponent for the battery type. I have been using a Peukert's Exponent of 1.03 for the 8kWh LiFePO4 battery bank that I have been running with since 2010. Real world observations have confirmed this PE value to be correct and that my batteries are still operating above the rated capacity.

We have all heard that lithium batteries can be safely discharged to lower states of charge than L/A batteries, the common assumption is for an 80% depth of discharge is OK for LiFePO4. With your 48V 200Ah battery, you've got about 8000Wh of usable storage. I know that you asked for a 6 hour runtime, 4kts will give you about 10hrs of capacity (40nm) and 5kts will give you about 4 hours of runtime (20nm) . Your 6hr discharge rate is 26A which may be about 4.6kts (27.5nm) (I'm taking an educated guess on the "watts to knots" conversion for 26A, based on the other performance data given here.)

Once you get your project up and running, please take some time to measure your actual performance. First of all, it gives you excellent baseline data that you can use to judge the efficacy of future improvements and to see if your boat is gradually developing any performance issues. I spend a couple of hours once every season to check my boat's performance to make sure that everything is still meeting my original observations.

Your conversion seems like a fun project.

Fair winds and calms seas,

Eric

1964 Bermuda 30, 5kW drive, 8kWh lithium battery bank

Marina del Rey, CA

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Posted by: ewdysar@yahoo.com

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

Peukert effect is almost a non issue with LiFeP04, as I understand it. I am not nearly as knowledgeable on lithium batteries as lead so maybe someone who has been running lithium batts for a while and has more in depth knowledge will chime in. And actually, if you run even lead batteries at the 20 hour discharge rate, you can ignore Peukert calculations since the capacity rating is based on the 20 hour discharge rate. Discharge at lower current, and you get out more energy than expected. Discharge at higher current, and you will get less. There is a moral in that somewhere.

Sounds like you have a very practical project started, if any boat project can be said to be practical. It should end up as a great harbor or river launch and trailer cruising sounds like great fun.

I am sure you will want a canopy or bimini of some sort, anyway. As an experiment you can always throw some plywood and equivelant weight of sandbags up there and see if she gets tippy or not, but I think a bit of solar would be fine. As an example, this 300w panel weighs just a bit over 40lbs. A couple of them on a frame that folds or lowers down for towing would be a fantastic range extender and at very low speeds you could go indefinitely. Batteries could even charge while on the trailer, so you would be ready to splash the boat without first charging from shore power. If nothing else, make a solar towing/storage cover for the boat and leave the panels behind when you take to the water. Anyway I would keep an open mind about solar charging in general.

---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mryanqld@...> wrote :

His Majesty The King Of New Orleans.

Knowledgeable and great answers to my queries. Yes I am lucking in having a reasonable budget only because I sold my 40 foot yacht to downsize. The yacht incidentally came from Slidell L.A. post Katrina

The Sevcon controller is not a problem as it is beyond my IT skills to start programming controllers anyway. I also planned to order a Curtis bidirectional throttle, heat sink and Sevcon Clearview Display. Thunderstruck's reduction gear may be a bit flimsy as provided but I will be custom mounting it myself.I intend to brace it with some stainless steel diagonal angle struts as well.The Bukh diesel engine bed has been removed to allow the set up of a new bed to take the reduction plate. The Nordic can carry the weight as I have removed 230 kg of ballast and 180 kg of engine. The roomy and relatively deep bilge is another reason why I selected the Nordic. Good advice about separating the battery cells, I may have the room to do that. Undecided about solar panels as the weight up top may be a problem and I intend to trailer it to different waterways. Had a look at your website and found it entertaining and very informative especially your explanation of Mr Puekerts law. Am I correct in that this law may not apply to LiFEPO4 batteries. I have also taken the liberty of posting Matt's and your URL in my recently set up blog detailing the conversion of the my Nordic. Link below! Thanks Mick

http://eboat.website/

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Sunday, February 25, 2018

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

any pics of the nordica17?

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Ryan mryanqld@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
To: electricboats <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 25, 2018 10:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

His Majesty The King Of New Orleans.

The Sevcon controller is not a problem as it is beyond my IT skills to start programming controllers anyway. I also planned to order a Curtis bidirectional throttle, heat sink and Sevcon Clearview Display. Thunderstruck's reduction gear may be a bit flimsy as provided but I will be custom mounting it myself. I intend to brace it with some stainless steel diagonal angle struts as well. The Bukh diesel engine bed has been removed to allow the set up of a new bed to take the reduction plate. The Nordic can carry the weight as I have removed 230 kg of ballast and 180 kg of engine. The roomy and relatively deep bilge is another reason why I selected the Nordic. Good advice about separating the battery cells, I may have the room to do that. Undecided about solar panels as the weight up top may be a problem and I intend to trailer it to different waterways. Had a look at your website and found it entertaining and very informative especially your explanation of Mr Puekerts law. Am I correct in that this law may not apply to LiFEPO4 batteries. I have also taken the liberty of posting Matt's and your URL in my recently set up blog detailing the conversion of the my Nordic. Link below! Thanks Mick

http://eboat.website/

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 1:36 AM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups..com> wrote:

Oh I forgot to address your question! Yes for a Nordic 17, 200ah at 48v, LiFeP04, will be a tremendous bank. Run time of course will depend on throttle setting as well as reduction ratio and prop size/pitch. But 15 hours at 10a will bring you down to approximately 25% capacity, which is not okay with FLA batts but as I understand is acceptable with LiFeP04 or other lithium types. 10a should push your Nordic along at close to 3kt I am guessing. Better have some deep pockets... that bank won't be cheap. You will want a good BMS and if you are going for that fancy a bank, maybe active cooling as well. Fuses between cells. You should never need more than 40a current through the pack, so I would fuse appropriately (50a? 100a?) unless you think you would ever want to show off a bit and run the motor at 300a to impress bystanders LOL. BTW, you can only do that for about a half minute before everything starts going north on you. I would guess your hull speed to be just a hair under 5kt? I am thinking you can get 80% hull speed at 40a or so. As you break 50% hull speed, the power/speed curve steepens up a lot. As you approach hull speed you start giving a lot of power and getting very little speed increase. Which impacts the range of your bank, or the size bank needed to make the desired range. At 1kt, you probably have close to 80 hr run time if you have no house loads other than nav lights and cell/vhf charging. Again, just a guess. For 6 hours run, you could probably go at around 22a I imagine. 1kw to be more realistically conservative.

The Nordic will carry the weight which is probably a little over 200lbs with mounting and stuff, (you will be down in the water a tiny bit but she will still go just fine. Think of it as another large-ish passenger.) but it will be a challenge to find the space. Especially if you allow proper spacing between cells. I really don't like the practice of installing high C capable cells chock a block like I see in so many pictures. I haven't heard of any thermal runaway catastrophes on electric boats yet, knock on wood, but you would not want to be forever immortalized as having the first one. Some "experts" will of course say it is perfectly okay to cram them together because of the ventilation ribs in the case. Whatevah. I'm not the expert, just a guy who would not want an uncontrollable, amazingly fierce fire on his boat.

Since your Nordic is not a sailboat, it is an excellent candidate for solar panels. About 500w of solar charging will greatly extend your range and probably give you well over 2kt without drawing the batts down, in optimum conditions while the sun is high. If you get stranded with dead batts, a sunny day at anchor and you should be good for getting back home.

Bottom line, yeah if you have the space, and the $, that would be a great bank for your boat.

---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mryanqld@....> wrote :

Hi All I have gone cold on the QS motors for a number of reasons. My plan now is to buy a 5KW Thunderstruck kit complete with a reduction unit and fit it to the Nordic 17. They seem to be the best value and are a popular choice for DIY. I am OK with the mechanical side of boat propulsion and basic 12 volt electrical systems but have a lot to learn about electric motors and controllers. I know this is dumb question and their are a lot of variables but what LiFePO4 battery bank capacity do I need to get a six hour run timeat 48v?... My budget could run to 16 x 3.2 Volt 200ah Calbs or Winstons is this enough? The motor used in the kit is a ME1305..

Kind regards Mick 0414 264 312

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Posted by: Grant Perry <emmott@aol.com>

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Tuesday, February 20, 2018

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Sunday, February 18, 2018

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

His Majesty The King Of New Orleans.

The Sevcon controller is not a problem as it is beyond my IT skills to start programming controllers anyway. I also planned to order a Curtis bidirectional throttle, heat sink and Sevcon Clearview Display. Thunderstruck's reduction gear may be a bit flimsy as provided but I will be custom mounting it myself. I intend to brace it with some stainless steel diagonal angle struts as well. The Bukh diesel engine bed has been removed to allow the set up of a new bed to take the reduction plate. The Nordic can carry the weight as I have removed 230 kg of ballast and 180 kg of engine. The roomy and relatively deep bilge is another reason why I selected the Nordic. Good advice about separating the battery cells, I may have the room to do that. Undecided about solar panels as the weight up top may be a problem and I intend to trailer it to different waterways. Had a look at your website and found it entertaining and very informative especially your explanation of Mr Puekerts law. Am I correct in that this law may not apply to LiFEPO4 batteries. I have also taken the liberty of posting Matt's and your URL in my recently set up blog detailing the conversion of the my Nordic. Link below! Thanks Mick

http://eboat.website/

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 1:36 AM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Oh I forgot to address your question! Yes for a Nordic 17, 200ah at 48v, LiFeP04, will be a tremendous bank. Run time of course will depend on throttle setting as well as reduction ratio and prop size/pitch. But 15 hours at 10a will bring you down to approximately 25% capacity, which is not okay with FLA batts but as I understand is acceptable with LiFeP04 or other lithium types. 10a should push your Nordic along at close to 3kt I am guessing. Better have some deep pockets... that bank won't be cheap. You will want a good BMS and if you are going for that fancy a bank, maybe active cooling as well. Fuses between cells. You should never need more than 40a current through the pack, so I would fuse appropriately (50a? 100a?) unless you think you would ever want to show off a bit and run the motor at 300a to impress bystanders LOL. BTW, you can only do that for about a half minute before everything starts going north on you. I would guess your hull speed to be just a hair under 5kt? I am thinking you can get 80% hull speed at 40a or so. As you break 50% hull speed, the power/speed curve steepens up a lot. As you approach hull speed you start giving a lot of power and getting very little speed increase. Which impacts the range of your bank, or the size bank needed to make the desired range. At 1kt, you probably have close to 80 hr run time if you have no house loads other than nav lights and cell/vhf charging. Again, just a guess. For 6 hours run, you could probably go at around 22a I imagine. 1kw to be more realistically conservative.

The Nordic will carry the weight which is probably a little over 200lbs with mounting and stuff, (you will be down in the water a tiny bit but she will still go just fine. Think of it as another large-ish passenger.) but it will be a challenge to find the space. Especially if you allow proper spacing between cells. I really don't like the practice of installing high C capable cells chock a block like I see in so many pictures. I haven't heard of any thermal runaway catastrophes on electric boats yet, knock on wood, but you would not want to be forever immortalized as having the first one. Some "experts" will of course say it is perfectly okay to cram them together because of the ventilation ribs in the case. Whatevah. I'm not the expert, just a guy who would not want an uncontrollable, amazingly fierce fire on his boat.

Since your Nordic is not a sailboat, it is an excellent candidate for solar panels. About 500w of solar charging will greatly extend your range and probably give you well over 2kt without drawing the batts down, in optimum conditions while the sun is high. If you get stranded with dead batts, a sunny day at anchor and you should be good for getting back home.

Bottom line, yeah if you have the space, and the $, that would be a great bank for your boat.

---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mryanqld@...> wrote :

Hi All I have gone cold on the QS motors for a number of reasons. My plan now is to buy a 5KW Thunderstruck kit complete with a reduction unit and fit it to the Nordic 17. They seem to be the best value and are a popular choice for DIY. I am OK with the mechanical side of boat propulsion and basic 12 volt electrical systems but have a lot to learn about electric motors and controllers. I know this is dumb question and their are a lot of variables but what LiFePO4 battery bank capacity do I need to get a six hour run timeat 48v?... My budget could run to 16 x 3.2 Volt 200ah Calbs or Winstons is this enough? The motor used in the kit is a ME1305.

Kind regards Mick 0414 264 312

__._,_.___

Posted by: Michael Ryan <mryanqld@gmail.com>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Direct Drive QS Hub Motors

Oh I forgot to address your question! Yes for a Nordic 17, 200ah at 48v, LiFeP04, will be a tremendous bank. Run time of course will depend on throttle setting as well as reduction ratio and prop size/pitch. But 15 hours at 10a will bring you down to approximately 25% capacity, which is not okay with FLA batts but as I understand is acceptable with LiFeP04 or other lithium types. 10a should push your Nordic along at close to 3kt I am guessing. Better have some deep pockets... that bank won't be cheap. You will want a good BMS and if you are going for that fancy a bank, maybe active cooling as well. Fuses between cells. You should never need more than 40a current through the pack, so I would fuse appropriately (50a? 100a?) unless you think you would ever want to show off a bit and run the motor at 300a to impress bystanders LOL. BTW, you can only do that for about a half minute before everything starts going north on you. I would guess your hull speed to be just a hair under 5kt? I am thinking you can get 80% hull speed at 40a or so. As you break 50% hull speed, the power/speed curve steepens up a lot. As you approach hull speed you start giving a lot of power and getting very little speed increase. Which impacts the range of your bank, or the size bank needed to make the desired range. At 1kt, you probably have close to 80 hr run time if you have no house loads other than nav lights and cell/vhf charging. Again, just a guess. For 6 hours run, you could probably go at around 22a I imagine. 1kw to be more realistically conservative.

The Nordic will carry the weight which is probably a little over 200lbs with mounting and stuff, (you will be down in the water a tiny bit but she will still go just fine. Think of it as another large-ish passenger.) but it will be a challenge to find the space. Especially if you allow proper spacing between cells. I really don't like the practice of installing high C capable cells chock a block like I see in so many pictures. I haven't heard of any thermal runaway catastrophes on electric boats yet, knock on wood, but you would not want to be forever immortalized as having the first one. Some "experts" will of course say it is perfectly okay to cram them together because of the ventilation ribs in the case. Whatevah. I'm not the expert, just a guy who would not want an uncontrollable, amazingly fierce fire on his boat.

Since your Nordic is not a sailboat, it is an excellent candidate for solar panels. About 500w of solar charging will greatly extend your range and probably give you well over 2kt without drawing the batts down, in optimum conditions while the sun is high. If you get stranded with dead batts, a sunny day at anchor and you should be good for getting back home.

Bottom line, yeah if you have the space, and the $, that would be a great bank for your boat.

---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mryanqld@...> wrote :

Hi All I have gone cold on the QS motors for a number of reasons. My plan now is to buy a 5KW Thunderstruck kit complete with a reduction unit and fit it to the Nordic 17. They seem to be the best value and are a popular choice for DIY. I am OK with the mechanical side of boat propulsion and basic 12 volt electrical systems but have a lot to learn about electric motors and controllers. I know this is dumb question and their are a lot of variables but what LiFePO4 battery bank capacity do I need to get a six hour run timeat 48v?.. My budget could run to 16 x 3.2 Volt 200ah Calbs or Winstons is this enough? The motor used in the kit is a ME1305.

__._,_.___

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