Sunday, February 21, 2021

Re: [electricboats] importing batteries wholesale

But to more precisely answer the question, it's about 50% cheaper, and much more so depending on which domestic option you choose. 

For example: 
Here is a relatively new offering on Amazon, which is really not a domestic option but another one of the CN companies establishing a storefront here, so they take on all the hassle - it's the cheapest I can find that will deliver to your door:

48v 100Ah LiFePO4 Battery Deep Cycle Lithium iron phosphate Rechargeable Battery Built-in BMS Protect Charging and Discharging High Performance for Golf Cart EV RV Solar Energy Storage Battery https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08G7YMWND/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_AZCEDCA40SF3FMRQT42E
$1929. 

For a 600ah bank, that would be $12k. Pricing a similar size from Alibaba and including customs and shipping, renting a truck, and driving around the warehouse district, it was 45% of that. 

Not exactly apples to apples, but hopefully illustrative.  Now compare to battleborn, and it's 1/4th the cost.  On the other side of that battleborn have a fantastic reputation, years of proven performance, and rock solid guarantees.  There's a reason the price points are where they are. 

An interesting domestic option maybe the Dakota Lithium batteries, mined and manufactured in the US, and seem to be reasonably priced ($899 for 12v100ah - 600ah would be almost $22k).  Still more than 4x the price of my 600ah bank, but if you want a domestic source and the confidence to be able to return it, that looks like a good option. They have a 48v charger that I'll be looking at for future applications - my noco genius charger is great but was expensive and produces an unpleasant whine when charging. 

On Feb 21, 2021, at 09:50, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:


Good points! 
Yes, as per my original post, it's a risk and especially if there is some kind of problem. I relied on colleagues in China to do some research for me but nothing exhaustive.  In the end I decided that saving 50% (and this having 50% more range for my budget) was worth it in my particular case. 

I would not advise that course for everyone - especially if your budget is right or you can't accept the possibility of it not going well. 

I am probably going to import 20 or so more units than I need this time, and check them all out, and then sell them on (mostly to people doing home solar) with a markup for my trouble. It's a little bit of a capital risk, and quite a lot of hassle, but I'm hoping to come out slightly better than even to help fund more projects. 

On Feb 21, 2021, at 02:58, Carsten via groups.io <Carstensemail=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


Just a question, what is the price difference for local purchased battery banks and imported ?
There are all the troubles importing the bank, and the risk that the bank will not work as intended.

Bank with BMS - from China ?!! (I better buy locally (approved) BMS, and the batteries without BMS when imported)
Warranty ? Impossible to claim anything !
When you buy chinese : When the goods are sold, it is yours solely. No longer their responsibility.
They can smile and give a "good face" and answer your claims politely for months, but it is of no help to you.
There are videos on YT that shows a new set, which had run-down cells. What would YOU do ?

Do as the chinese do :
Send out a qualified person you trust to check YOUR batch at the factory (they should test each cell), and mark everything well before shipping. Each BMS should be witness tested as well.
(You can check how chinese parents buy foreign baby milk powder online - that may give you a clou how much they trust their own suppliers.)

This will cost you a bit, but it may be worth it.
If your electric boat suddenly stops working on your trip to Bahamas, then ??

Having spend half the time in China since 2002, including engineering supervision, I know something...

Maybe bargaining at a local supplier will be a "win-win".

Be safe,
Carsten

On Sunday, 21 February 2021, 06:13:45 GMT+8, Steven Chmura <chmura.steve@gmail.com> wrote:


I appreciate posting to the group. I'm looking for systems for my cat and location will be dependent on how well I can protect them. I have a Fountaine Pajot with a divided engine room port and aft. It could easily stay pretty dry. 

My thoughts are how to get around 30kwH per hull and distribute the weight properly. 

The current engines are about 425lbs. Right now that much battery puts me closer to the 800lb range per side. 

Taking out the fuel tank also gives me another 700lbs of fuel gone.

I'm not quite there yet. But reading about your package helps keep me in check with pricing and planning.

Please keep it coming.

Thanks
Steve 

On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 5:32 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
apologies for replying to the whole group, didn't mean to do that!

On Feb 20, 2021, at 13:29, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:


Hi Michael,

I am still getting quotes, but my inclination is to go for the 48v 200ah powerwall style battery from the same manufacturer I used last time (Felicity solar).  I've been happy with the four I bought previously. Right now they also seem to have the lowest price, at $1550/unit, but I'm still waiting on a final quote.  Also looking at Rosen solar ($1780/). 

There is an annoying practice on alibaba where the vendors now compete for traffic by listing ridiculous prices but then the actual price is much closer to what you would expect but you can't find it out until you get a quote. 

The powerwall style are not suitable for exposed environments - I am also getting quotes for ABS enclosed 48v 200ah batteries, which likely would not have the comms link capability or programming port. Oddly, so far these are looking more expensive. Lowest one so far is 2500/unit.  

I'm importing to Seattle, getting units to Portland shouldn't be too hard in your case. As far as timing, I haven't gotten shipping details quoted yet, it will depend on whether there is existing stock or it has to be produced, snd shipping volume. I'm guess if I placed an order by March 1 we could be looking at mid April, but I'll know better this week hopefully. 

On Feb 19, 2021, at 13:48, Michael Blackstock <mdblackstock@gmail.com> wrote:


Ryan! I'm definitely interested as I'm about to install my 10kw motor soon.
Let me know and feel free to call or text me.
I'm in Portland, Or, btw.

Michael Blackstock

Cell phone 503-913-8217

On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 9:50 AM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
I am preparing to source another order (new projects!). Is there any interest in sharing the cost of shipping/customs/etc?

On Nov 27, 2020, at 17:17, Ryan Sweet via groups.io <ryan=ryansweet.org@groups.io> wrote:


This is the link. I got the 7.5kwh version (150ah). 


I didn't mention researching the companies. I think key is to make sure they have been around a while.   I had some colleagues in Shanghai use a local index to check the Chinese version of the "better business bureau" for whatever that's worth.  Another company that they checked out for me was Rosen Solar. The stuff from Rosen looks to be higher quality, it's bigger operation with several reputable partners in North America, but was more expensive. I took a risk on Felicity Solar and so far it seems ok. 

On Nov 27, 2020, at 17:10, Bill Farina <bill@thirdcoast.us> wrote:



Ryan,

 

Thank you for taking the time to write this all up. Very informative.

 

Would you happen to have a link to the batteries that you ended up purchasing?

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Ryan Sweet
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 4:39 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] importing batteries wholesale

 





A few notes about buying batteries from Alibaba, from my recent experience - if you already run an import business or have done this before you probably know a lot more about it, but this was all new to me, so I'm sharing:

 

- note that Alibaba is not analogous to Amazon - the Amazon equivalent is AliExpress, and things are more expensive there.  Alibaba is factory to wholesaler,  but unlike a lot of manufacturers in the us, there aren't a lot of hurdles to buying from them as an individual.

- to import to the US, you will need to fill out the import/customs clearance paperwork and pay considerable fees, as well as tariffs. Basically you do a little work to become an importer (more on this below)

- there is a schedule and some legwork snd you have to pay attention to it or things can get hairy (you might have to pay large fines for not having the paperwork or the shipping company might have to refuse to load the goods).

 

I purchased four 150ah, 48v powerwall style batteries, with built-in BMS and comms port, the BMS can be linked and you can manage them over CAN-bus.  I used a company called Felicity solar. These were NOT IP65 and I would hesitate to install them in an area that doesn't stay mostly dry.  All in all they were about 50% of the cost of any other solution I could find for building my 48v 600ah bank, on which I can motor pretty much all day. 

 

So first is shipping. This is actually pretty reasonable, and about $255 for a regular sized pallet coming from Gaungzhou to a major West Coast port (Seattle) For East/Gulf Coast it may be different. If you will not be able to go with a truck to the warehouse area near the port you will have to arrange a forwarding shipment within the US as well, which I expect costs similarly. 

 

In my case there was lead time between order and shipping, about 20 days.  Your payment is due upfront. 

 

When the factory is ready, they will give you a document for the shipment called a "bill of lading".  First they will give you an electronic copy but then also express shipping you a paper copy. 

 

Then there is the customs paperwork. I observed that it's possible to do this yourself but not recommended if it's your first time.  There are customs clearance brokers who have online services that you can use to get everything straight. I used one called "ClearItUSA".  They weren't particularly helpful but it worked. You have to take the Bill of Lading document and obtain an "ISF" document.  You then have to give this to the factory before the shipment can be loaded.  I think my fees for the clearit process were about $125. 

 

Note: if you do not get the ISF document to the shipping agent on time they can refuse to load the goods and charge you anyway or they can load them and give you a fine. So pay attention and do that part promptly. 

 

The factory/shipping company will have a forwarding company in the US who is authorized to act as their representative here. They can can help answer customs questions but mostly they are just taking another cut.  When the shipment is within seven days of port, this company will send you an "arrival notice" which has the documentation of the name of the ship and the name of the company that will unload the cargo and warehouse it. This is where you will pick up the goods or whom you must contact if yo are going to arrange delivery. 

 

Sometime before the ship arrives, you should receive the paper copy of the Bill of Lading. You have to send this to the US based forwarding agent, along with their fee, in my case $305.  You also have to pay import tariffs (I did this through ClearIt, it was about 10%). Then they tell the warehousing company that the goods can be released. 

 

So then you call the warehousing company from the Arrival Notice and either make an appointment to pick up the goods or to have them delivered. You also have to pay this company a fee for handling and warehousing the goods, in my case this was another $110. I had find their warehouse in the large warehouse district and navigate to their loading dock.  It was pretty straightforward. 

 

All up, the fees and tariffs etc ended up being another $1100 on top of the cost of the batteries, but still that came in far cheaper than any domestic option I could find, I suspect because all of the above is quite a bit of hassle, and I'm pretty sure that it would be a giant hassle or complete non-starter if I needed to return something, so there is that risk as well. 

 

I'm considering doing another order, now that I know how to do all of that, but I am cautiously waiting to see how the performance goes. So far I've purposefully fully drained the batteries twice, and got very close to the full 600ah, in spite of some Peukertt effect (when drawing 150a at full throttle they drain more quickly).  I think I might actually get more if I kept the throttle at 20a. They take about 18h to fully charge using my noco genius 48v charger. 

 

Anyway, for the fellow with the 55' boat thinking about CALB cells, you might consider the powerwall style to save you the bars/cable/BMS/encasing etc. 3s wiring of 3 48v would get you to 144v. They are *heavy* (150lbs ea) though and I had a good workout moving them aboard. 



On Nov 27, 2020, at 04:09, Steve Dolan <sdolan@scannersllc.com> wrote:



I'm running the Calb batteries (48) with the ORION BMS and a EVIC monitor. Advanced Motor Controllers. Very happy with the setup.

 

Steve in Solomons MD

Lagoon 410 S2E

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of shredderf16
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 6:59 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Repowering a 55' sailboat - Tentative Design

 

Steven,

Do you have a link to the batteries? That's  about half to 1/3 of the costs I've  seen recently. 

Thanks, 

Jerry Barth

 

 

 

Sent from my Sprint Tablet.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Steven Borg <steve@theborg.family>

Date: 11/27/20 12:31 AM (GMT-05:00)

Subject: Re: [electricboats] Repowering a 55' sailboat - Tentative Design

 

I think I've settled on the setup. Let me know if I've made some poor choices.

Motor and Controller: Hyper-9 HV (running at 144-154V) (also includes contactor and relay)
Charging: TSM2500 x 2 (support up to 6kw at 220V input) (from Thunderstruck)
BMS: Dilithium Designs BMS Controller and 1 Satellite (for 48 cells) (from Thunderstruck)
Batteries: 3.2V 280Ah Lithium (CALB-style) - 48 batteries for 154V (or 45 batteries for 144V) (from Alibaba - shipped from China)

Total cost is approximately $11,000 with the batteries running just over $4k

Besides a Engine Mounting, Throttle and Key, what am I missing in this configuration?

Finally... I'm connecting the engine (1 1/4" shaft) to a 29 spline male end of my 2.57 velvetdrive transmission/ 2.57 reduction.  How the heck do I do that cost effectively?  Slip yoke? Pinion yoke? Spider join? Some home brewed shaft coupling?  Yikes!

Posted by at

No comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)