|
Sunday, August 27, 2017
Sign in attempt prevented
Thursday, August 17, 2017
[Electric Boats] Re: Lots of questions from Central Florida
Laura & Jeff,
Welcome. Pretty sweet list, eh? Many folks (mostly our trusty moderator) have been expertly nurturing this group for many years!
KingOfNewOrleans right on target about:
the various suppliers of standard systems,
the battery choices,
the spending priorities,
the intended usage questions,
DIY time commitments (include both of your tolerances!).
the various suppliers of standard systems,
the battery choices,
the spending priorities,
the intended usage questions,
DIY time commitments (include both of your tolerances!).
A technical point about LiFePO4 batteries: unlike most other lithium chemistry batteries, lithium iron phosphate batteries trend away from thermal runaway reactions. Other lithiums, particularly LiON and LiPoly batteries can self-excite at out-of-bound voltages, meaning a slight voltage anomaly can within seconds wake the entire chemical house, then neighborhood, then town, then city... all the atoms screaming because one dog barked or one baby cried. This usually results in that one battery bursting into flames. There are Battery Management Systems (BMS) that 1. try to prevent this thermal runaway by disconnecting charge/discharge loads, and 2. try to quickly recover from a thermal runaway by arresting fires.
The more stable LiFePO4 batteries tend to chemically neutralize internally with too high or too low voltages, like part of them permanently goes to sleep each time the voltage is out of bounds. Charge a tiny bit too much, or drain too much, and your $4,000 battery pack acts like a $3,000 pack, then a $2,000 pack, then a $500 pack...
The energy density of LiFePO4 is about 3 times greater than Lead Acid batteries, so if a spear gun pokes a LiFePO4 battery, it will be 3 times more exciting than if a spear gun poked a Lead Acid battery. But then gasoline/diesel have a 100 times higher energy density, so the same spear gun accident (particularly a flaming spear gun!) would be 100 times more disappointing.
Turning the energy point around, leaving the dock with a healthy $4,000 LiFePO4 battery pack (and BMS, and electric motor, and throttle, and propeller....) is like leaving the dock with $4 worth of fuel (and tank, and gas motor, and throttle, and propeller...)
This relatively low energy store brings us to SOLAR PANELS. If you are docked, solar panels are pretty. If you are at sea, solar panels are pretty important, refilling your small expensive tank continuously.
There's another reason even a $50 solar panel is worth its weight in gold: Lead Acid battery sulfation. Every LA battery deteriorates internally when resting, and during light normal use. Lead Sulfate begins to form and grow on both the negative terminal's plates of lead (anode), and the positive terminal's plates of lead dioxide (cathode). These initial tiny lead sulfate growths begin to obscure the internal lead plates (anodes), and lead dioxide plates (cathodes), AND deprive the battery of sulfuric acid, making the battery behave like a smaller and smaller battery. If these minuscule Lead Sulfate growths continue to grow and establish, they harden into Lead Sulfate crystals, which are much more tenacious (most say too tenacious).
A weekly/monthly 2 amp overcharge (100 watts on a 48 volt Lead Acid battery pack) is just the ticket to completely dissolve the pre-crystalized Lead Sulfate amorphous formations. This is the "equalization" process many chargers support, and a gentle and natural daily event with ideally sized solar panels!
Unfortunately, equalization necessarily breaks the water molecules apart into hydrogen and oxygen. Most Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) batteries attempt to catalytically recombine these gasses back into water, but vent excess pressure (about 2psi) so the battery's plastic case doesn't crack open. Most SLA batteries ("maintenance free", Valve Regulated Lead Acid, Gel, Absorbed Glass Mat...) are already starved of water, so losing water (as gasses) also diminishes capacity. Here's the beauty of Flooded Lead Acid batteries: they have removable caps where you can add "distilled water" (no extra minerals to mess up the battery chemistry) to replace the lost water from equalization.
So gentle daily solar equalization that doesn't burp SLA batteries, or make you add distilled water too often to FLA batteries, dramatically increases the capacity life of your LA batteries. I'm at about 8 years on two cheap 60AmpHour parallel deep cycle FLA batteries that are connected directly to a small 15w solar panel (no charge controller). That's about a 1 amp charge a few hours most days, which isn't quite enough to bubble the electrolyte, but is enough to almost daily hold the battery voltage up around 14.3 volts (dissolving sulfates). I add a little distilled water yearly.
Sorry for all the words, but as you know, there are gazillions of details. Another reason to go with the pros.
Mark Stafford
I play with: e-bike, e-kayak, e-scooters, e-cars, e-sailboats, e-houses....
__._,_.___
Posted by: mstafford@natca.net
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (3) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Wednesday, August 16, 2017
[Electric Boats] Re: Lots of questions from Central Florida
You should be okay with them. A 5kw unit will work, but a bigger one would be better. The real wildcard is your batteries. How big a bank you want, and what type of batteries you get.
All the big players in turnkey systems are putting out a decent product. Enough units have been installed that by now everybody has worked the kinks out of the design and tooling and materials. There was a time when this simply wasn't so, and buying a complete system was not IMHO a good idea. Now, it is worth considering, and there are a lot of satisfied owners even on this board.
Myself, I cobbled my system together myself, for less than $2500 including a 10.56kwhr bank of golf cart batteries. No solar yet, but there will be, when I have the money. I am happy with my setup but I put a lot of time into research, sourcing components, and putting it all together. DIY is not for everyone. With the turnkey systems, the engineering is already done. Just mount, couple, and connect.
Everyone has their favorite battery technology, but it mostly boils down to LiFePO4 or flooded lead acid. A few guys like gel cells or AGM because you can mount them any which way. I don't like them. Too many things can go wrong with them that you can't remedy. Flooded cells need to be topped up with water occasionally. They should be equalized a couple times a year. They should remain above 50% charge, though an occasional dip down to 40% or so is not the end of the world. LiFePO4 batteries rely heavily on the BMS to prevent thermal runaway situations. The technology is now mature enough that it is a viable one, and it has many advantages. Higher usable power density. Longer life. Less sensitive to deep discharge. But much more costly. And needs careful monitoring especially during rapid charge and discharge. That's when stuff happens. Or when there is physical damage that shorts out a cell. I think overall lead still wins, but if you have deep pockets then Lithium is worth considering.
Another question with batteries is how much capacity do you need. For a lot of sailors, those who SAIL their boats and practically never motor except for docking, a fairly small bank will do just fine. Four group 31's in series, for instance. Maybe a separate 12v house bank, maybe not. You can run your 12v loads off a DC/DC converter and just have the one bank. If you motor a lot or carry a lot of house loads, then something like I have, 8 6v 220AH GC2 golf cart batteries in series might be just the thing. I paid $85/ea at Sams Club for mine, over 3 years ago. Still going strong, better now than when they were new. However, I know how to maintain them. Some owners will see their batteries going tits up at the three year mark and wonder why those batteries suck so bad. A lot of it is the maintenance. There are bigger batteries, too, if you really need a lot of storage, like L16's for instance, but that might be pushing it on a 31 foot boat. Still worth a look. But GC2 is probably the best bang for the buck. There are also single cells up to 2000AH and bigger, but you don't want to mess with them. Or even 8D or 4D. Big, hard to handle. Lithium cells come in a variety of sizes, too. Most boats up to 35 or 40 foot use 48v systems. The wiring standards are different when you go above 50v. So if you go bigger than 48v, you may as well go up to 96v or maybe 120v. Of course your motor and controller have to be rated for the voltage. for your boat, 48v is a good setup.
Will you be doing a lot of cruising in your boat, or will it mostly be a dock queen and weekender? Do you motor a lot, or a little? Do you like to tinker, or do you just want to twist a knob and go? Do you have a diesel, and will you be keeping it or pulling it? Have a generator?
I suggest getting your bank in, first, followed by the motor and controller and user controls. THEN worry about solar. The cheapest way to charge is not from solar panels. Its shore power. For now, anyway. But solar charging makes you much more flexible and independant.
__._,_.___
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (2) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Tuesday, August 15, 2017
[Electric Boats] Lots of questions from Central Florida
Hello all,
We’re refitting a 78 BombayClipper 31 and are trying to decide if ElectricYachts is the way to go. SO much to learn and my husband knows WAY more than I do.
We are planning an arch over the cockpit with solar panels as hardtop to fit as many as possible. We have questions on drive, batteries, panels, charger, etc. We’ve done tons of research but it makes my brain woozy, lol.
We are in Ocala, FL but boat is south of Palatka. Anyone nearby with knowledge they’re willing to share? What you did that worked great; what you’d do differently?
We also think we need a marine electrician if anyone can recommend for our area.
This is us so far: https://svcurrents.blog/
SO happy to have found this forum! TIA ;-)
Cheers~
Laura & Jeff
Laura Allen, Virtual Assistant
Works of Wonder Virtual Assistance
352-816-2071 cell/text
815-572-5125 fax
"Once you make a decision, the Universe conspires to make it happen." ~ Emerson
__._,_.___
Posted by: Laura WOWVA <laura@wowva.com>
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (1) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Monday, August 14, 2017
Re: [Electric Boats] need Lenco 164 motor
I can't see where this one is a 82 or a 102 lb? Glenn
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] need Lenco 164 motor
These motors are Motor Guide 82 lb trolling motors. I have bought several on ebay. Check there first. Glenn
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 7:05 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] need Lenco 164 motor [1 Attachment]
I have an infinyte I4 boat http://www.infinytemarine.com/ it uses Lenco 164 motors http://www.romppais.com/Lenco%20164.htm and one of them has quit working. Does anyone know of a place that I could find one. (or two)
__._,_.___
Posted by: "Glenn Holland" <gholland1@nc.rr.com>
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (4) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Re: [Electric Boats] need Lenco 164 motor
These motors are Motor Guide 82 lb trolling motors. I have bought several on ebay. Check there first. Glenn
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 7:05 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] need Lenco 164 motor [1 Attachment]
I have an infinyte I4 boat http://www.infinytemarine.com/ it uses Lenco 164 motors http://www.romppais.com/Lenco%20164.htm and one of them has quit working. Does anyone know of a place that I could find one. (or two)
__._,_.___
Posted by: "Glenn Holland" <gholland1@nc.rr.com>
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (3) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
[Electric Boats] Re: need Lenco 164 motor
Try a search alert at my site: www.BoatUsedPartSearch.com Suggest start with BRAND Lenco Run this for a week before "tuning" via filters. Just ignore the "false positives" & you won't miss anything. Good Luck! Doug
__._,_.___
Posted by: dougmcq000@yahoo.com
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (2) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Sunday, August 13, 2017
[Electric Boats] need Lenco 164 motor [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) from 6ogqzwecf3hnm5ehsa2siwwksxiymnmqcv2tutvj@yahoo.com [electricboats] included below]
I have an infinyte I4 boat http://www.infinytemarine.com/ it uses Lenco 164 motors http://www.romppais.com/Lenco%20164.htm and one of them has quit working. Does anyone know of a place that I could find one. (or two)
__._,_.___
Attachment(s) from 6ogqzwecf3hnm5ehsa2siwwksxiymnmqcv2tutvj@yahoo.com [electricboats] | View attachments on the web
1 of 1 Photo(s)
Posted by: 6ogqzwecf3hnm5ehsa2siwwksxiymnmqcv2tutvj@yahoo.com
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (1) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Thursday, August 3, 2017
Re: [Electric Boats] 18650 bank. Parallel packs, connected in series, or series strings, connected in parallel?
Yeah no sweat Jason. I think the Walmart cells would be a little more consistent then that, just guessing, but I am putting that project on deep hold for now anyway. I got plenty other things to tinker with.
__._,_.___
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (9) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Wednesday, August 2, 2017
Re: [Electric Boats] 18650 bank. Parallel packs, connected in series, or series strings, connected in parallel?
Sorry for the strange sentence structure and typos. Big fingers and iPhone keyboards don't get along well. Hopefully my point still came across.
On Aug 2, 2017, at 13:35, 'Jason (Electric Boats) Taylor' jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I bought 30x "6000mah" cells last year. More as a joke than anything serious.I have an apparent mix of capacities and building useful packs with them is too much trouble. The capacities are really allOver the place. Strong advise against it. Waste of money and more importantly, your time. You would need to charge/discharge/fully charge each cell and take notes of true capacity. Then parallel them accordingly. Then link I series accordingly. Also, discard or repurpose the ones that are too far out. I have some cells that are under 1000mah and some that actually deliver a solid 2400mah. I was hoping to be able to build a pack for my 32lb trolling motor for my dinghy. 4s6p with a 15A battery control board ($4 from DX.com) that would cut output if any one parallel string goes out of voltage spec (high or low). It ju st isn't working. With the board, capacity is reduced to the capacity of the lowest-capacity cell -- once it hits 4.2 or 2.7 Volts, the pack gets isolated. This is probably a good thing considering how unstable these cells can get outside of their high/low voltage limits./Jason
--Jason Taylorv:514-815-8204e:j@jtaylor.caI just saw a pretty good deal on nominally 5ah 18650 cells in bulk and I was thinking about putting together a small (100ah or so, 48v or thereabouts) bank of them. I know not to actually expect more than about 2ah out of them LOL but they were cheap, from a US seller, and I figured I could maybe use 5a fuse wire to deal with cells that go short on me, and manually monitor groups, and match the cells appropriately when building. Any thoughts? It seems to me that it would be easier to balance/match a bunch of series strings wired together in parallel than a bunch of parallel bundles connected together in series. Not sure how serious I want to get about this project at the moment, but I thought maybe someone here might have tried this. I am aware of the fire hazard, but I think with decent spacing and 5a fuse wire, I shouldnt have to worry too much about thermal runaway. Since it will be a secondary and not my primary bank, if it simply fails to deliver the voltage and current expected, no biggie, I just try again with a proper BMS. Your input, gentlemen? Is 5a fuse light enough for this?
__._,_.___
Posted by: "Jason (Electric Boats) Taylor" <jt.yahoo@jtaylor.ca>
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (8) |
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.
.
__,_._,___
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)