Tuesday, February 28, 2017

Re: [Electric Boats] New member to the world of Electric propulsion

 

I would say a 8kw AC generator and a second Quattro would get you to 140 amps, for half the price of any DC generator,  you could buy.  And that generator would already be marine certified.  Plus you would have a "free" Quattro and an extra 5000 watts of AC power to use on the boat.  

I have searched and searched for a reasonable priced marine DC generator, they simply don't exist.  You can get some small air cooled DC generators around 3000 watts pretty cheap,  they should never be used on a boat for any reason, but if some one does....please invest in two or three carbon dioxide detectors! 

On Feb 28, 2017, at 7:34 AM, Chris Hudson clh5_98@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hello Jack,
I converted my 415 Out Island ketch about 4 years ago. I have a "20KW" twin motor system at 48 VDC with a belt reduction system. Batteries are 16X Trojan T-145, which equals 520 AH. Generator is a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW at 120 VAC feeding a Victron Quattro 5000 KVA charger/inverter. 
I don't have solar, or wind power. Top speed with my system is about 6 knots. I find that 4 to 4.5 knots is the sweet spot for speed-vs-range for most situations.
Based on my system and experience with it, here's an example of what you might expect. With my generator running I can motor at 3.0 to 3.5 knots without drawing from the batteries. This is about 50 amps DC from the charger with the generator feeding it doing all it can. It can do a little more, but I limit it to 85% via settings in the charger. This example is with light wind/current. Expect considerably more, or less depending on conditions. When I have to motor into the wind for long periods, motor-sailing with the main helps increase range and/or speed. We have made trips up to 35 miles via the ICW, sailing some, motoring some, mostly at some point along the way running the generator, especially if we plan to anchor that night to minimize running time at anchor. 
If you plan to do a lot of motoring, I'd consider a DC generator. Even with a bigger AC generator, my charger is limited to 70 amps DC, and there are a lot of losses along the way. I'd say a DC generator capable of 150 amps DC would be perfect. If you need more power than that for short periods, your batteries are always there.
Happy to share more as you're questions develop.

Regards,
Chris


Sent from myPhone

On Feb 26, 2017, at 19:58, sinbosn2@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi there,
I am contemplating purchasing a sailboat which will need a heart transplant. I am interested in the pros and cons of electric motors for sailboats. 

The conversion would be to a Morgan 416 Out Island, 27,000 lbs, Ketch Rig , shallow draft‎.

Intended use would be frequently entering and leaving harbours (Tour type use) and days between any sort of power grid (remote areas, North West Atlantic). Home Port would have about 3NM to open water.

I have been presented with options for 20, 30, and 40KW options. ‎(48, 72 and 96Vdc)

‎Suggestions on Battery type, solar array, etc

Blessings,
Jack Barrett +

(Please excuse typos or apparent minor contextual or spelling errors. My 'smart' phone really isn't. At times, I will miss the obvious errors during review by pressing "SEND", before literary or grammatical perfection has been achieved.‎)
‎
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10 smartphone on the Bell network.

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Re: [Electric Boats] New member to the world of Electric propulsion

 

Hannu,
You have provided some very interesting reading. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to wait as the diesel is siezed. :-(
However, the other questions you raise demand some serious thought.
Thank you very much for your insight and time.

Blessings,
Jack Barrett +

(Please excuse typos or apparent minor contextual or spelling errors. My 'smart' phone really isn't. At times, I will miss the obvious errors during review by pressing "SEND", before literary or grammatical perfection has been achieved.‎)
‎
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10 smartphone on the Bell network.
From: Hannu Venermo gcode.fi@gmail.com [electricboats]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 09:56
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Reply To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] New member to the world of Electric propulsion

 

Any transit to open water would seem to have little to no wind, current, waves, storms, etc.

Any nr of posts and experience proves about 1-2 kW of actual power used will get you 3-4 knots.
3-4 kW - 3.5 -5.5 knots.

4 kW x 5 knots = 4 kWh for 5 miles, and you need 6 miles for there and back.
=> 4.8 kWh at top rational transit speed.

Days-between ..
what is your power budget in watts ?
Solar ?
A 12 m boat can easily take 4-6-8 panels on custom fab mounts.

PV power incoming charge / day: 4 panels x 5 hours x 330W nominal = 6.6 kWh.
Most sailboats use half or less than that, but have very little stuff in use.
If You sit at anchor, cook on gas, your only draw is refrigeration and or freezer, perhaps, at a  416.
iPads, etc. add to the use.

But if you watch (big) tv, with a networked appliance and an inefficient router, your power draw can be == 4x the refrigerator.

Do You want the TV/router/iPad and how much ?
What is Your budget level ?
What is Your skill/tech level vs costs ?

Any of the 5-6 parameters are critical path exponentials, that can or will change the best outcome 400% or more.

Best choice, if funding is available, and tech and time is not an issue.
Get a crashed tsla electric car, take the battery, use suitable conditioning as preferred.
This will be the best, by far, in terms of cost/kWh, longevity, total power.
It will also be somewhat involved.
The big boat at 12m or 41.6 f colours my recommendation.

If You want to buy a "stock" solution from a supplier.
No idea.
Many here are great suppliers of excellent packaged ev solutions.

A possibly important point.
Lion batteries (all batteries) are about to drop 2-4x or 400% in costs, per kWh, retail, 2-5 years.
Any and all battery systems pre-2018 get essentially worthless.
And that is the low-end minimum level.

Today, 2017, US top tier victron LiFePO4 lion batteries have 83 Wh/kg / 500-800$ / kWh.
See pdf of brochure.
In 2019, about 200-300 Wh/kg at 200-300 $.
This is all based on existing production and tech.
Tsla will be selling at 100-120 $ cost a 220-320Wh/kg battery in 4 months.

It is also very, very, very likely the real development is vastly better.
Somewhere to 500-1000 Wh/kg, retail, ye 2019/2020.
There are about 20 proven developments and tech demos at those energy densities, or higher, useful for real-world use.

There are multiple startups often with limitless money, to create such batteries.

It is not obvious - but:
any company that makes a really good dense + cheap + durable battery is much more valuable than google+amazon+apple combined.
The energy-utilities market for batteries is 17T / yr globally.
Total market == 30 T$.
Total value for the potential company somewhere in 1-100T$.
Yes, any company that had a product like that *not-copiable*, would dominate the global economy.

We are about 20-40% from getting all-electric airplanes, at 3-5-10x less cost/km.
It is certain we will get there in 1-2-5 years in battery terms.
At 300Wh/kg - electric airplanes.
At 250-1000 Wh - electric all, including trucks, cargo ships, cruise liners, everything.

I am not a shill for tsla or batteries for mobility or anything.
I think it is by no means certain tsla will rule the auto market, or indeed avoid banruptcy.

But one thing is certain.
If tsla or anyone else can just once make dense cheap batteries, then such will be sold- and they change the world.
If someone else can make them as well or better, then tsla may fail, and or die.

Today, tsla leads at it, at 160 kWh/pack/kg/85 kWh, @ 180$/kWh. Old tech, about 3 years ago.
Soon, tsla leads at it, at  220-300 kWh/pack/kg/85 kWh, @ 100-120$/kWh. New tech, 2017.




On 27/02/2017 02:58, sinbosn2@gmail.com [electricboats] wrote:
The conversion would be to a Morgan 416 Out Island, 27,000 lbs, Ketch Rig , shallow draft‎.

Intended use would be frequently entering and leaving harbours (Tour type use) and days between any sort of power grid (remote areas, North West Atlantic). Home Port would have about 3NM to open water.

I have been presented with options for 20, 30, and 40KW options. ‎(48, 72 and 96Vdc)

‎Suggestions on Battery type, solar array, etc

Blessings,
Jack Barrett +

--   -hanermo (cnc designs)



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Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Boat issue

 

Greetings, Carter,
 
I am not sure the original poster 'Tony' was talking about mixing AGM batteries with FLA batteries.
 
I know I would certainly second your warning about not doing that if he's given that indication.
 
Just curious about your "Danger" alarm here, After all, I was just talking about mixing 55 gallon rain barrels full of water with golf cart batteries in my analogy.
 
What could go wrong there?  After all, they are called <i>flooded</i> lead acid batteries aren't they?
 
Thanks,
 
Ken Cooke
Kentucky River
 
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Boat issue
 
 

Danger, Danger Will Robinson. lol

I would not parallel AGMs and FLAs without some serious battery management system going on.

You're going to burn something up and it will most likely be a bunch of expensive AGM batteries.


On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:42 PM, "'Ken Cooke' ken.cooke@canewoods.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Do you have a schematic on how you are drawing power off your batteries (Which posts) and the specifications of the % measurement displayed by your charge controller?
 
My guess is that the percentage measure is based on voltage alone, not some true measurement of amp hour discharge capacity.
 
Sometimes I've found that my system voltages will drop to 12.5 to 12.2 volts while underway with motors running full speed, then when I stop for a few minutes the voltages will stabilize back to 12.8 or even run back up to 13+ if the solar panels are still connected.  Your Chinese Charge Controller may be only getting it's reading off the same battery  your power posts are drawing from. 
 
Imagine having 8 barrels full of water, each connected so they rise and fall together through a 1" hose.
You discharge from one barrel with a four inch hose, so the water level in first barrel you are drawing from goes down to 65% while the other barrels are still full.  They will equalize eventually
 
I would pay more attention to system voltage as measured on the negative post of battery 1 and the positive post of battery 8.
 
Thanks,
 
Ken Cooke
Kentucky River
 
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Solar Boat issue
 
 
 
I have a a solar boat with 6 (130 watt) panels, 80 amp Chinese controller, 8 (98 amp hour) batteries(parallel) and 2 (45 lb) trolling motors. At full throttle one motor draws around 35 amps. After an hour at full throttle the controller shows the batteries at only 65%. Any thoughts?

Tony
Sent from my iPad
Is it possible your controller thinks you only have 98 Amp-Hours total capacity?  (8 batteries in parallel is not a very common configuration so setting up the controller incorrectly is more likely).  35 amps being drawn for an hour would leave 65% remaining if total capacity was only around 100 Amp-Hours.  Can you tell the controller you recharged the batteries (without actually doing so) and see how much energy is really remaining?
Pat




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Posted by: "Ken Cooke" <ken.cooke@canewoods.com>
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Re: [Electric Boats] Primitive Makeshift Solar Electric Technology

 

I support him on patron. 

Nick



Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.


-------- Original message --------
From: "Carter Quillen twowheelinguy@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 2017-02-28 12:43 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Primitive Makeshift Solar Electric Technology

 

I've watched this guy build three different solar boats episode by episode over the last three years. The shark slicer is just his latest creation. He's built a bunch of wild robot creatures too. He does some crazy things with PVC, fiberglass, and metal pieces. 

Right now he's working on a solar powered bulldozer creation.

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com 


On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 10:36 AM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




Sorry I couldn't come up with a snappy acronym this lovely Mardi Gras morning. Anyway I have been following this guy's projects and progress off and on for a while now, and maybe some of you already do, too, but maybe some of you will find this entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7flR0O-coU





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Posted by: 63urban <63urban@gmail.com>
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Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Solar Boat issue

 

Danger, Danger Will Robinson. lol

I would not parallel AGMs and FLAs without some serious battery management system going on. 

You're going to burn something up and it will most likely be a bunch of expensive AGM batteries.


On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 12:42 PM, "'Ken Cooke' ken.cooke@canewoods.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




Do you have a schematic on how you are drawing power off your batteries (Which posts) and the specifications of the % measurement displayed by your charge controller?
 
My guess is that the percentage measure is based on voltage alone, not some true measurement of amp hour discharge capacity.
 
Sometimes I've found that my system voltages will drop to 12.5 to 12.2 volts while underway with motors running full speed, then when I stop for a few minutes the voltages will stabilize back to 12.8 or even run back up to 13+ if the solar panels are still connected.  Your Chinese Charge Controller may be only getting it's reading off the same battery  your power posts are drawing from. 
 
Imagine having 8 barrels full of water, each connected so they rise and fall together through a 1" hose.
You discharge from one barrel with a four inch hose, so the water level in first barrel you are drawing from goes down to 65% while the other barrels are still full.  They will equalize eventually
 
I would pay more attention to system voltage as measured on the negative post of battery 1 and the positive post of battery 8.
 
Thanks,
 
Ken Cooke
Kentucky River
 
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Solar Boat issue
 
 
 
I have a a solar boat with 6 (130 watt) panels, 80 amp Chinese controller, 8 (98 amp hour) batteries(parallel) and 2 (45 lb) trolling motors. At full throttle one motor draws around 35 amps. After an hour at full throttle the controller shows the batteries at only 65%. Any thoughts?

Tony
Sent from my iPad
Is it possible your controller thinks you only have 98 Amp-Hours total capacity?  (8 batteries in parallel is not a very common configuration so setting up the controller incorrectly is more likely).  35 amps being drawn for an hour would leave 65% remaining if total capacity was only around 100 Amp-Hours.  Can you tell the controller you recharged the batteries (without actually doing so) and see how much energy is really remaining?
Pat




__._,_.___
Posted by: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (9)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

.

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Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Primitive Makeshift Solar Electric Technology

 

I've watched this guy build three different solar boats episode by episode over the last three years. The shark slicer is just his latest creation. He's built a bunch of wild robot creatures too. He does some crazy things with PVC, fiberglass, and metal pieces. 

Right now he's working on a solar powered bulldozer creation.

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com 


On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 10:36 AM, king_of_neworleans <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




Sorry I couldn't come up with a snappy acronym this lovely Mardi Gras morning. Anyway I have been following this guy's projects and progress off and on for a while now, and maybe some of you already do, too, but maybe some of you will find this entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7flR0O-coU





__._,_.___
Posted by: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (2)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

.

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Re: [Electric Boats] New member to the world of Electric propulsion

 

Carter, I appreciate this lead.

Blessings,
Jack Barrett +

(Please excuse typos or apparent minor contextual or spelling errors. My 'smart' phone really isn't. At times, I will miss the obvious errors during review by pressing "SEND", before literary or grammatical perfection has been achieved.‎)
‎
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10 smartphone on the Bell network.
From: Carter Quillen twowheelinguy@yahoo.com [electricboats]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 09:59
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Reply To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] New member to the world of Electric propulsion

 

The telcom industry has a 48VDC diesel genset used for backup power in telephone switching stations that would be ideal. They maintain them meticulously and replace them regularly whether they need it or not.  Rumor has it you can buy these used gensets at auction for a fraction of their initial cost.

Does anyone have a lead on one of these auctions?

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com 


On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 8:40 AM, "Chris Hudson clh5_98@yahoo.com [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




Hello Jack,
I converted my 415 Out Island ketch about 4 years ago. I have a "20KW" twin motor system at 48 VDC with a belt reduction system. Batteries are 16X Trojan T-145, which equals 520 AH. Generator is a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW at 120 VAC feeding a Victron Quattro 5000 KVA charger/inverter. 
I don't have solar, or wind power. Top speed with my system is about 6 knots. I find that 4 to 4.5 knots is the sweet spot for speed-vs-range for most situations.
Based on my system and experience with it, here's an example of what you might expect. With my generator running I can motor at 3.0 to 3.5 knots without drawing from the batteries. This is about 50 amps DC from the charger with the generator feeding it doing all it can. It can do a little more, but I limit it to 85% via settings in the charger. This example is with light wind/current. Expect considerably more, or less depending on conditions. When I have to motor into the wind for long periods, motor-sailing with the main helps increase range and/or speed. We have made trips up to 35 miles via the ICW, sailing some, motoring some, mostly at some point along the way running the generator, especially if we plan to anchor that night to minimize running time at anchor. 
If you plan to do a lot of motoring, I'd consider a DC generator. Even with a bigger AC generator, my charger is limited to 70 amps DC, and there are a lot of losses along the way. I'd say a DC generator capable of 150 amps DC would be perfect. If you need more power than that for short periods, your batteries are always there.
Happy to share more as you're questions develop.

Regards,
Chris


Sent from myPhone

On Feb 26, 2017, at 19:58, sinbosn2@gmail.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Hi there,
I am contemplating purchasing a sailboat which will need a heart transplant. I am interested in the pros and cons of electric motors for sailboats. 

The conversion would be to a Morgan 416 Out Island, 27,000 lbs, Ketch Rig , shallow draft‎.

Intended use would be frequently entering and leaving harbours (Tour type use) and days between any sort of power grid (remote areas, North West Atlantic). Home Port would have about 3NM to open water.

I have been presented with options for 20, 30, and 40KW options. ‎(48, 72 and 96Vdc)

‎Suggestions on Battery type, solar array, etc

Blessings,
Jack Barrett +

(Please excuse typos or apparent minor contextual or spelling errors. My 'smart' phone really isn't. At times, I will miss the obvious errors during review by pressing "SEND", before literary or grammatical perfection has been achieved.‎)
‎
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10 smartphone on the Bell network.





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Posted by: sinbosn2@gmail.com
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (6)
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.

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Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] New member to the world of Electric propulsion

 

Any transit to open water would seem to have little to no wind, current, waves, storms, etc.

Any nr of posts and experience proves about 1-2 kW of actual power used will get you 3-4 knots.
3-4 kW - 3.5 -5.5 knots.

4 kW x 5 knots = 4 kWh for 5 miles, and you need 6 miles for there and back.
=> 4.8 kWh at top rational transit speed.

Days-between ..
what is your power budget in watts ?
Solar ?
A 12 m boat can easily take 4-6-8 panels on custom fab mounts.

PV power incoming charge / day: 4 panels x 5 hours x 330W nominal = 6.6 kWh.
Most sailboats use half or less than that, but have very little stuff in use.
If You sit at anchor, cook on gas, your only draw is refrigeration and or freezer, perhaps, at a  416.
iPads, etc. add to the use.

But if you watch (big) tv, with a networked appliance and an inefficient router, your power draw can be == 4x the refrigerator.

Do You want the TV/router/iPad and how much ?
What is Your budget level ?
What is Your skill/tech level vs costs ?

Any of the 5-6 parameters are critical path exponentials, that can or will change the best outcome 400% or more.

Best choice, if funding is available, and tech and time is not an issue.
Get a crashed tsla electric car, take the battery, use suitable conditioning as preferred.
This will be the best, by far, in terms of cost/kWh, longevity, total power.
It will also be somewhat involved.
The big boat at 12m or 41.6 f colours my recommendation.

If You want to buy a "stock" solution from a supplier.
No idea.
Many here are great suppliers of excellent packaged ev solutions.

A possibly important point.
Lion batteries (all batteries) are about to drop 2-4x or 400% in costs, per kWh, retail, 2-5 years.
Any and all battery systems pre-2018 get essentially worthless.
And that is the low-end minimum level.

Today, 2017, US top tier victron LiFePO4 lion batteries have 83 Wh/kg / 500-800$ / kWh.
See pdf of brochure.
In 2019, about 200-300 Wh/kg at 200-300 $.
This is all based on existing production and tech.
Tsla will be selling at 100-120 $ cost a 220-320Wh/kg battery in 4 months.

It is also very, very, very likely the real development is vastly better.
Somewhere to 500-1000 Wh/kg, retail, ye 2019/2020.
There are about 20 proven developments and tech demos at those energy densities, or higher, useful for real-world use.

There are multiple startups often with limitless money, to create such batteries.

It is not obvious - but:
any company that makes a really good dense + cheap + durable battery is much more valuable than google+amazon+apple combined.
The energy-utilities market for batteries is 17T / yr globally.
Total market == 30 T$.
Total value for the potential company somewhere in 1-100T$.
Yes, any company that had a product like that *not-copiable*, would dominate the global economy.

We are about 20-40% from getting all-electric airplanes, at 3-5-10x less cost/km.
It is certain we will get there in 1-2-5 years in battery terms.
At 300Wh/kg - electric airplanes.
At 250-1000 Wh - electric all, including trucks, cargo ships, cruise liners, everything.

I am not a shill for tsla or batteries for mobility or anything.
I think it is by no means certain tsla will rule the auto market, or indeed avoid banruptcy.

But one thing is certain.
If tsla or anyone else can just once make dense cheap batteries, then such will be sold- and they change the world.
If someone else can make them as well or better, then tsla may fail, and or die.

Today, tsla leads at it, at 160 kWh/pack/kg/85 kWh, @ 180$/kWh. Old tech, about 3 years ago.
Soon, tsla leads at it, at  220-300 kWh/pack/kg/85 kWh, @ 100-120$/kWh. New tech, 2017.




On 27/02/2017 02:58, sinbosn2@gmail.com [electricboats] wrote:
The conversion would be to a Morgan 416 Out Island, 27,000 lbs, Ketch Rig , shallow draft‎.

Intended use would be frequently entering and leaving harbours (Tour type use) and days between any sort of power grid (remote areas, North West Atlantic). Home Port would have about 3NM to open water.

I have been presented with options for 20, 30, and 40KW options. ‎(48, 72 and 96Vdc)

‎Suggestions on Battery type, solar array, etc

Blessings,
Jack Barrett +

--   -hanermo (cnc designs)

__._,_.___
Posted by: Hannu Venermo <gcode.fi@gmail.com>
Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3)
Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.

.

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