Tom
lithium is certainly lighter about 1/3 the weight of lead acid.
your assistance will reduce the load on the prop like wind assistance so provide more effective range.
Not sure if rowing is the same but the electric would certainly take you through any adverse current or wind situations which reduce average speeds so much.
Andrew
On 31/05/2012 11:47 PM, tom_the_rower wrote:
I would like to participate in a 100 mile race in the outer banks of North Carolina in September. My 20 ft, high sided sliding seat rowboat, with 10 ft oars is the primary propulsion, and I currently run a 12 volt trolling motor with a long shaft and a group 27 deep cycle battery. I row every night, big wind or flat water 8-10 miles and have done a 20 mile day. I plan to add a pop up sail for when the wind is with me and also a parafoil sled kite as well. The rules state that I can use electric, but cannot recharge from shore, only solar. I would start on a Friday morning and must finish by Sunday at noon. Most people seem to paddle/sail 20 hours per day and sleep for 4, so some night time usage is anticipated. I would probably try to limit my usage to oncoming wind, which is tough to row in, unless LIPO 48 v would allow me to make the trip using the motor all the time. In either case, I will row continuously, so again, electric is not the only means of propu! lsion.
I understand that Torqueedo initially came out saying their props were super efficient, but I have heard that that was just marketing.
My boat weighs 180 lbs, plus I weigh 180 plus maybe 50 pounds of gear for 3 days.
Any advice you can offer is most welcome.
Tom the rower
I can use any designed boat, but I made my boat, so that is the one I want to take, and yes, I am sure of my oar length, although, I did just get 2 2x6x12ft A#1 clear yellow pine boards that I ripped in half to make 4 12 ft oars. I will try those. That is a good suggestion.
Tom the rower
Are you sure about those oar lengths? I use 10' on my jon boat and they are just for auxiliary propulsion. I used 14' on my 21' narrow sailboat (also with high freeboard) and there were times when I thought they should be longer.
A lot depends on the leverage ratio and therefore where your oarlocks are. The rule of thumb is that the minimum length is 5 times the oarlock to handle length. More for boats with high freeboard.
I'd switch to 14' oars. This will not only be more efficient, but the longer stroke time will reduce the propeller's overspeeding condition I mention elsewhere.
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom_the_rower" <ibiubu99@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to participate in a 100 mile race in the outer banks of North Carolina in September. My 20 ft, high sided sliding seat rowboat, with 10 ft oars is the primary propulsion, and I currently run a 12 volt trolling motor with a long shaft and a group 27 deep cycle battery. I row every night, big wind or flat water 8-10 miles and have done a 20 mile day. I plan to add a pop up sail for when the wind is with me and also a parafoil sled kite as well. The rules state that I can use electric, but cannot recharge from shore, only solar. I would start on a Friday morning and must finish by Sunday at noon. Most people seem to paddle/sail 20 hours per day and sleep for 4, so some night time usage is anticipated. I would probably try to limit my usage to oncoming wind, which is tough to row in, unless LIPO 48 v would allow me to make the trip using the motor all the time. In either case, I will row continuously, so again, electric is not the only means of propulsion.
>
> I understand that Torqueedo initially came out saying their props were super efficient, but I have heard that that was just marketing.
>
> My boat weighs 180 lbs, plus I weigh 180 plus maybe 50 pounds of gear for 3 days.
>
>
> Any advice you can offer is most welcome.
>
>
>
> Tom the rower
>
Unless someone has tested the Torqueedo props with measuring instruments I wouldn't believe opinions of their efficiency. Since their prop is slightly self-feathering, they might be the best one to use anyway. As you stroke the oars you will reduce or eliminate the prop load. That means the prop isn't propelling the boat at that moment, but is using electricity. With a feathering prop it will adjust to that lighter load a little bit and in the end might be the most efficient to use. Also, there is a setting on the Torqueedo speed control for best range. You might want to try that setting in a test run and see if that helps.
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "tom_the_rower" <ibiubu99@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to participate in a 100 mile race in the outer banks of North Carolina in September. My 20 ft, high sided sliding seat rowboat, with 10 ft oars is the primary propulsion, and I currently run a 12 volt trolling motor with a long shaft and a group 27 deep cycle battery. I row every night, big wind or flat water 8-10 miles and have done a 20 mile day. I plan to add a pop up sail for when the wind is with me and also a parafoil sled kite as well. The rules state that I can use electric, but cannot recharge from shore, only solar. I would start on a Friday morning and must finish by Sunday at noon. Most people seem to paddle/sail 20 hours per day and sleep for 4, so some night time usage is anticipated. I would probably try to limit my usage to oncoming wind, which is tough to row in, unless LIPO 48 v would allow me to make the trip using the motor all the time. In either case, I will row continuously, so again, electric is not the only means of propulsion.
>
> I understand that Torqueedo initially came out saying their props were super efficient, but I have heard that that was just marketing.
>
> My boat weighs 180 lbs, plus I weigh 180 plus maybe 50 pounds of gear for 3 days.
>
>
> Any advice you can offer is most welcome.
>
>
>
> Tom the rower
>
I would like to participate in a 100 mile race in the outer banks of North Carolina in September. My 20 ft, high sided sliding seat rowboat, with 10 ft oars is the primary propulsion, and I currently run a 12 volt trolling motor with a long shaft and a group 27 deep cycle battery. I row every night, big wind or flat water 8-10 miles and have done a 20 mile day. I plan to add a pop up sail for when the wind is with me and also a parafoil sled kite as well. The rules state that I can use electric, but cannot recharge from shore, only solar. I would start on a Friday morning and must finish by Sunday at noon. Most people seem to paddle/sail 20 hours per day and sleep for 4, so some night time usage is anticipated. I would probably try to limit my usage to oncoming wind, which is tough to row in, unless LIPO 48 v would allow me to make the trip using the motor all the time. In either case, I will row continuously, so again, electric is not the only means of propulsion.
I understand that Torqueedo initially came out saying their props were super efficient, but I have heard that that was just marketing.
My boat weighs 180 lbs, plus I weigh 180 plus maybe 50 pounds of gear for 3 days.
Any advice you can offer is most welcome.
Tom the rower
I just received my June copy of Soundings Trade Only, which features a two page ad featuring Torqeedo's new large 60KW outboard, due for US introduction in December.
They are targeting "high use operators", and suggest that these customers are likely to realize an economical advantage over ICE within the first year.
It is also interesting that they are considering offering a financing program over the lifespan of their batteries, in addition to a long-term warranty.
-Tom
agree absolutely, same concept and questions.. once on plane might be consistent 14-15 mph and the boat grows some reach-range. might be it wants 15-16 mph to stay in a decent slow plane, it'll be neat to see it reported. on calm water theres about gotta be a "magic number" for speed with low current draw. wouldnt expect it to be greater range than at trolling speeds, but it'd be cool to see its cruising speed-range. it might want to run 23-24 mph, more on step, less wetted. I'm simple minded, but know if its drinking 100 amps at 12 mph and 160 amps at 20 mph you're gonna do 20, same as if its drinking 300 amps to do 30, much better range at 20. am sure it'll be a bit of a chore writing down all the speeds and watts/amps, but I'd sure want to know near exactly what to expect from it :) --- On Wed, 5/30/12, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:
|
Hi AK,
Congratulations on getting the boat up and running. And it looks like she can really run!
If you get a chance, I would be interested in hearing what your measured "watts to knots" performance is. While cruising around at 28kts looks fun, the range can't be good. What I'm really interested to learn is if there is an optimal speed with the boat planing that gives more range at a reasonable speed. It might have greater range there compared to much slower displacement speeds.
We know that in displacement mode, the speed to range graph is exponential. I think that your speed to range graph will have a notch in it where your energy requirements "reset" down to a lower figure right after the boat get up on a plane. From there I would expect the typical exponential progression that we see in diesplacement boats.
When I did my performance testing, I tried to make sure that I held specific throttle settings for at least 30 seconds to give the boat a chance to settle into its actual speed for that power output. If you go up in 5A increments, I would expect that you'll hit a wall (no appreciable speed increase for a number of throttle increments) before the boat pushes over the bow wave. At some given increment, the boat speed should jump as the hull comes up on plane. Then while your bringing the throttle back down through 5A increments, you should find that your speed will stay higher through the same settings that wouldn't get you up on plane. Finally, the boat will drop back into displacement mode and you'll be back with the rest of us "slowboaters".
I'm excited because you have the opportunity to provide real world data to support what we all "know" about planing hulls. A digital ammeter gives much better visibility into the actual energy consumed. With an ICE, the best I've been able to do is fuel consumption, and that's not granular enough to put together a detailed graph.
Again, congratulations on a job well done!
Fair winds and smooth seas,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "ams_ak@..." <ams_ak@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Have not been active in the group, but would like to share a vid of our first outing wih the Electric Speedboat:
>
> http://youtu.be/yt-F7meWNzA
>
> Thanks Roderick, Eric and Dave for some encouraging words here, while we were still in the brainstorm stage of the project.
>
> regards
>
> AK
> New Electric
>
| Very nice.. 53-54 kph about 33-34 mph, is pretty fast. --- On Wed, 5/30/12, ams_ak@ymail.com <ams_ak@ymail.com> wrote:
|
Have not been active in the group, but would like to share a vid of our first outing wih the Electric Speedboat:
http://youtu.be/yt-F7meWNzA
Thanks Roderick, Eric and Dave for some encouraging words here, while we were still in the brainstorm stage of the project.
regards
AK
New Electric
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "ams_ak@..." <ams_ak@...> wrote:
>
> @nick (belated) thanks, you may well be right on that. We will try both in the end, but for the first build the flywheel gives a solid mating point for the torque-converter. I am less worried about excess weight and more about twisting the 30+ year old sterndrive shaft to pieces.. jikes!
>
> Also time for project update as we have Big news!
>
> -The Kostov 11" 250V arrived! but that is small potatoes becuase our build has been selected as a EVTV contest finalist! more details at
> http://www.projectooc.com/evtv/finalist_review.php?finalist=finalist9
>
> You will also find pictures of the V174 there..
>
> regards,
>
> AK
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Nicholas Luker <nickluker@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> > from another evtv fan
> > and some one also thinking of converting there boat
> > you can lose the flywheel as it sbasicaly just there to smooth out the bumps
> > from the ICE engine at low speed and also increases torque at low rpm as ICE
> > engines only give low torque at low rpm's due to the low number of bumps per
> > second ( ie low number of piston pulses per minute)
> > I think with the torque of an electric motor a flywheel is just an energy
> > robber
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:08 AM, ams_ak@ <ams_ak@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So 2 1/2 months later, time for an update.
> > >
> > > We now have 2 Bayflite V174's in the workshop.. one is stripped bare, ready
> > > to take the flooring out. This one will be rebuilt with the new lithium pack
> > > in mind.
> > > The second is ready to go, sans engine and tank. This will be the test
> > > boat, and will be the first home for our new parts.
> > >
> > > The parts list has changed a bit.
> > > Kostov 11" 192HV is now 11" 250V
> > > 60*100Ah LiFePo4 is now 91*90Ah
> > > Soliton1 controller remains.
> > >
> > > So we are adding 60 kg of lithium, making a 26kWh pack and allowing for the
> > > higher voltage motor. The motor is confirmed and should be getting to us in
> > > 10 days or so, v excited about the unboxing :)
> > > Controller and lithiums should be in by the end of next month.
> > >
> > > Work will focus on mating the 11" to the flywheel in the volvo penta AQ270
> > > sterndrive. And making sure the motor stays put.
> > > As for parts, we will now be looking at (making our own) high capacity
> > > charger and DC-DC converter. Just been looking at the no1 EV show and they
> > > were talking about the vicor PFC megaPAC. very cool, but hard to tell which
> > > versions would be the one to get.
> > >
> > > then there is the question of waterski's :P
> > >
> > > AK
> > >
> > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "ams_ak@" <ams_ak@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the input all.
> > > >
> > > > -Eric
> > > > The 10 kWh / Gallon measure is interesting, and another way of showing
> > > that the 80*100Ah setup would not be a bad idea. Storage would then be 25.6
> > > kWh, usable roughly 20 kWh. Bit more of a buffer and performance is
> > > increased in spite of the weight gain, due to better overload power (or so
> > > it is said).
> > > > Still a 40 kW motor is going to eat any battery pack tout suite at WOT.
> > > >
> > > > Which ties into the usage / generator replies.
> > > > I've considered generators from the get-go, and a wide variety at that. I
> > > own a little Solar Panel resale and installation business, so you can
> > > understand I lean slightly more toward the so called renewable generators.
> > > All in all, there are just so many ways of getting juice into your pack, and
> > > that is one of the cool features of a battery driven vehicle.
> > > > For my conversion, or at least for now, I feel I can leave all the
> > > generating outside of the boat. I have enough power for day trips city side.
> > > When i go nature / lakeside I have the advantage of knowing people all along
> > > the way, so a limp in to port is always real close. Seaside however, that
> > > might be the day I want the Honda.. or a friend with a bigger boat!
> > > > The city of Amsterdam is also helping out by installing a few new
> > > charging stations every month, with free juice (until 03-2012).
> > > >
> > > > All this talk of draining the batteries is distracting. There are A LOT
> > > of parts which can fail before I get that far :)
> > > >
> > > > AK
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <ewdysar@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > AK,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been reading the posts concerning your planned conversion, and it
> > > looks like the most realistic proposal for the conversion of a speedboat
> > > that has been covered here. The key factor is your planned usage (use case).
> > > Recognizing that most of your time will be spent at low speeds in the canals
> > > will allow you to achieve reasonable use on a single charge.
> > > > >
> > > > > A rule of thumb that I use to evaluate a battery bank capacity to
> > > gasoline usage is that 10k-11k Watt Hours (Wh) of battery last about as long
> > > as 1 gallon (4 liters) of gasoline through an ICE. Your proposed 60x100Ah
> > > bank has about 18,000 Wh total storage or about 14.4k Wh of usable (to 80%
> > > depth of discharge). So your proposed batteries should act alot like 5-5.5
> > > liters of gasoline. You've probably noticed that a day of canal cruising
> > > doesn't use very much fuel, that is in your favor. However, your 130Hp ICE
> > > can probably burn more than 40 liters/hour at WOT. I figure that if your
> > > proposed setup can deliver the same performance (it should be close), then
> > > you would also be able to drain your batteries completely in less than 10
> > > minutes at WOT.
> > > > >
> > > > > So I think that your proposal is sound, as long as you accept the
> > > limitations. I had to go through the same process when I replaced a 2hp ICE
> > > outboard on my dinghy with a Torqeedo 801. The dingy performs about the
> > > same, but if I consistantly try going fast, the battery doesn't last very
> > > long. The better that I manage the battery, the more pleased I am with the
> > > overall performance of the electric solution.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fair winds,
> > > > > Eric
> > > > > Marina del Rey. CA
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "ams_ak@" <ams_ak@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roderick, Dave, thanks for the thumbs-up. I felt that the power and
> > > weight advances in parts now reasonably available would make this conversion
> > > feasible, glad to find I am not alone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Rod
> > > > > > The Canals in Amsterdam are fresh water and there would be no plans
> > > for going out on the Northsea any time soon, unless I go a little Wilde
> > > myself. Still the plan will be to keep the motor dry, much more so than the
> > > ICE in the original setup. I am leaning towards the Winston (Thundersky)
> > > LiFePo, in part because I could then source motor-controller-battery from
> > > one place within the EU (Kostov).
> > > > > > Cool that you are expanding your interest to this side of the
> > > Atlantic. I saw your LR challenge a while back and remember thinking we
> > > could use some more of that over here!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Dave
> > > > > > There is a forced air cooling fan available with the Kostov, making
> > > cooling more independent of RPM. Probably a good addition for this setup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So I wont be too heavy, and I should have enough power, but range
> > > will still be a question. I posted the weight calculation for 60 100Ah
> > > lithiums, in part because it shows that the new setup could be a little
> > > lighter than the original. Kostov recommends going with an 80 x 100 setup,
> > > extending range and high RPM (voltage) performance. It adds 70 kg / 150 lb
> > > but if budget allows... well thats always the if :)
> > > > > > Either way the motor and controller will be capable of draining the
> > > pack real quick, so its a good thing you can also really get a kick out of
> > > quiet slow speed cruising. And maybe sneak up on some fish ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AK
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > usoPreviewPopup
> >
>
