This is a very interesting thread, that's for sure. Too bad it has gotten so fragmented.
As for the technology, electric motors and control systems have advanced to the point where, as Eric pointed out, there are only small incremental improvements to be had.
As I see it there are two main areas where technological improvements can realize large gains. One is propellers, typical prop efficiency is on the order of 50%. The other is batteries, which is where most of the development effort is being applied, and where we have seen some impressive gains in recent years. Presumably the main "driver" of that effort is the budding electric car industry, but we will all benefit. The technology is easily transferable.
Your hypothetical is just that. What's the point? I'd like to have a jet-pack that could zoom me across the country at Mach 10. Ok, well maybe that's a bigger hypothetical leap, but you see my point.
I like to daydream too, but when it comes to actually applying technology to make something happen one needs to look at current state-of-the-art and work with what's available, and then go from there. There are folks out there with a lot of resources who are pushing the edge, and I admire them. Consider Elon Musk for example, one of my heroes, I think he will be one of the leading technology leaders of the 21st century. He's doing incredible things (Tesla Roadster, Space-X) and he's practically still a kid.
As for Henry Ford, I don't think his cars were all that innovative, even at the time. His main contribution in the early days was figuring out how to build cheap, simple cars that the masses could afford. Somebody had to do it, otherwise owning a car would be like say owning a business jet nowadays, only for folks with a lot of dough.
That sort of gets me back to the main point I wanted to make. Yes, there are some cutting edge technologies out there, and eventually some of them will trickle down into my little corner of the boating world, but for now I need to work with I can afford if I want to do more than talk and dream. That means, for me, displacement hull, low power, and low-tech lead-acid batteries with inexpensive chargers. You gotta start somewhere. Having done several such installations I know it works and I know what the limitations are. Next step up is higher-tech batteries if you can afford it. Pack in a bunch of Life-Po's and you can get some serious range in a displacement hull. From there to "What if the Electric Motor only needed (1-2) Batteries (or any Energy Source) to perform as good if not better than a comparable ICE?" as you asked, well, that is a MUCH bigger step.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Jim McMillan
"on the cutting edge of low-tech"
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@... wrote:
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> Hi Jim, takes at least 2 to debate right?
> I don't see any of this as a debate, I see people with opinions, it is more important to listen & understand than to believe there is a debate to win.
> I have found that most people with a very strong opinion have some type of self interest at the foundation.
> I simply made a suggestion, which ignited a discussion that is very interesting.
> no debate here, I have responded to assumptions and accusations regarding my intentions in my response, to clarify my position.
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> I think there was a compliment there? If so, Thank You, and I appreciate a learning experience on Luddites, first time I heard the term.
> I haven't accused anyone of anything, and your point about understanding the technology is a good one.
> Wonderful thing this Internet, dangerous too, it is very difficult to believe everything you read, hear & see (thank you PhotoShop).
> Here's a hypothetical - What if the Electric Motor only needed (1-2) Batteries (or any Energy Source) to perform as good if not better than a comparable ICE?
> The BMS - which I will clarify in my terminology, represents the complete Energy Source System, anyway you like and it appears there are a lot of ideas about that.
> Lithium Nickel Maganese Cobolt seems to be cutting edge currently, do you know the investment cost required to apply this technology to a mid range electric propulsion re-power?
> This situation, ICE vs. E-Prop, reminds me of the stories at the turn of century 1900's, between Horse/Buggy & Automobile. The visionary Blacksmith's learned how to fix those autos as well as shoing horses & making bridles.
> Who do you think were the first to invest in those autos? What impact did Henry Ford have ? This discussion about E-Prop in USA has a whole history lesson to it. The Europeans have been using E-Prop technology for over 10 yrs. If it wasn't for the Internet, most of us wouldn't even know about it, Why ? Here we go full circle back to foundations based on self interest.
> I have to ask , how many people needed to understand the auto technology before they invested in one? Not Many, the key was affordability & reliability, you apply those two keys to E-Prop, and the picture gets a little clearer ? I can remember my Great Grandparents talking about how stupid & ridiculous they thought the auto was, a big huge waste of time, everybody in a big hurry to go nowhere. As I consider this, I wonder why do a lot of boaters presumably have a need to go beyond Hull Speed ?
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: luv2bsailin <luv2bsailin@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 10:26 pm
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric boating association in the US?
>
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> GN,
> Lol, you must have been online when I posted that because I deleted it right away as I didn't want to be accused of starting a political debate on this forum. I will say up front that my political views are of the free-market, small gov't sort and all the talk about tax incentives and such chaps my hide.
> I do get where you're coming from and I admire your zeal, but it would be helpful to take some time getting to understand the technology before accusing us on this group of being a bunch of Luddites.
> Jim
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, GNHBus@ wrote:
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> > I never said any industry needs tax credits to survive, or did I suggest any politician/bureaucrat would decide what technologies are worthy. I meant or suggested that people interested in electric propulsion should consider contacting their representatives in government to request an offset for investing in a technology that reduces pollutants. The end users inevitably have the final decision via the investment or the vote.
> > The best example I have at the moment is Marine Battery Management Systems. The latest technology with the highest performance is usually expensive up front, that is an economics discussion, Supply/Demand, (supposedly Free Market Society) so if a person must invest $ 10,000 in a Batt Man Sys to get the performance needed, it is an Investment Decision, the more people that can make that decision quicker, leads to a lot of growth. Incentives for the early investors.
> > Otherwise, there is a continuous investment in less than adequate existing technology that stalls the whole process of advancement.
> > There are numerous stories about how many & how much Lead Batts to power a really nice electric system, or maybe pay a little more for AGM, but Lithium Batts???? "that's for the mega wealthy", LOL! If you think about it, it really isn't, it's for everybody to benefit, the price point comes into balance as the volume increases, the volume increases through demand, demand increases through desire & incentives, such as a low interest lease, with tax deductible interest & percentage of the investment.
> > What if I told you the best Batt Manag Sys tech was available for $ 150 month ?
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> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: luv2bsailin <luv2bsailin@>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, Feb 3, 2011 11:35 pm
> > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Electric boating association in the US?
> >
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> > My sentiments exactly.
> > I don't want politicians and bureaucrats deciding what technologies or companies are "worthy"? Best to let the end users decide what works and vote with their checkbooks.
> > Jim McMillan
> >
> > --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mike <biankablog@> wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO I think the electric boating industry will be stronger if it does not start to rely on tax credits for it's survival.
> > >
> >
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