Saturday, May 27, 2017

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: PROPELLER REGENERATION WITH HPEVs MOTOR UNDER SAIL? [2 Attachments]

 
[Attachment(s) from 66b6dcd5b59507e7d751ea81382ea1f6 included below]

Berlouin,

Forgive me, I wasn't suggesting you use the Lynch as it was clear you'd chosen HPEV AC20. I was more trying to saying in the various posts that Graeme Hawksley of Hybrid Marine in UK has switched to brushless from the brushed for generation. I'm not sure why you think the Lynch etc can't do 72V, as the Lynch and Saietta go to 110V and 72V respectively per the attached PDFs.

As regards checking your shaft RPM this inexpensive tacho should do the trick. I have one and it works just fine:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HDE-Professional-Digital-Infrared-Tachometer/dp/B00850ZCRI/

With my DC Lynch of course I can measure voltage at the motor and multiply that but the RPM/Volt 'constant,  of course that is a no load constant so the combination of the voltage and tacho reading helps me be confident of the loaded shaft RPM speed.

John R

__._,_.___

Attachment(s) from 66b6dcd5b59507e7d751ea81382ea1f6 | View attachments on the web

2 of 2 File(s)

Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (7)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Would using a BLDC/PMAC motor and controller as a generator be a good idea?

 

Hi Myles,

I have to say I'm with you on regen. Basically I'd want a boat with an LWL that allowed cruise at 6 knots or more and personally I'd rather have a folding prop for most situations, other than say long tacks crossing oceans, in which case I think a regen prop is worthwhile.

In terms of turning a bigger prop for regen I've often wondered about the Gori Overdrive prop for experimentation. My only experience of these is crossing Biscay last year in my friend's Discovery 58. Basically you have a choice of different pitch as Nigel Calder explains:

http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/engines/two-speed-propeller/

My favourite solution is solar and were solar cloth sails, biminis, and spray dodgers more affordable they would be my priorities. But to me fixed solar is to me affordable and the best current solution.

And here's the rub in my case. My small 60W (2 x30 in series) solar 'array' gives on average, at my 55 North Latitude, 5 West in the summer months, 2.5 times panel rating = 150Wh per day, which is just about enough to run my 4 G router. Max I've seen is 5 x panel rating in summer and worst about 1 x, using an MPPT of course.

As some of you know I opted for minimal batteries (2 in series) in part due to cost but also due to lack of space and wanting weight in the right area and still being able to get access to my stern PSS shaft seal. So with less batteries and solar than most the logical solution was a small backup generator. I opted for the 1kVA Honda as the 2kVA was half as much again in cost and the rated outputs (they use the same engine just at different rpm) are 900W vs 1600W. Also as I have max 1,100W of chargers for my propulsion lithium bank it made sense to buy the smaller one especially as I only need about 1000W battery power to cruise at 4 knots in calm conditions.

Anyway my point is, to match my solar harvest per day I need only run my generator for only 10 minutes or so. To me that's not so inconvenient and the little Honda with light use has likely (from experience using Honda engines of all kinds) will last 20 years and the costs over time compared to batteries, solar and wind is negligible. Of course that's economic logic and there are reasons to look to renewables for boats simply because of the silence and simplicity of e.g. solar.

John R

__._,_.___
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (8)

Check out the automatic photo album with 1 photo(s) from this topic.
Screenshot 2017-05-27 14.45.14.png

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Thursday, May 25, 2017

[Electric Boats] Re: Would using a BLDC/PMAC motor and controller as a generator be a good idea?

 

Not a small task.  The engineering is not for the faint of heart and be willing to spend money correcting errors along the way.  Electric Yacht does have all the systems you are diescribing but the market is not knocking down the doors to get to the "hybrid" units and I understand that Beta dropped their project.  We still do them but not a business to invest in.

I am impressed with what I see when I visit http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/index.html 

I hope they get some traction.  Seems well designed but I am wondering if it not the same system that was dropped by Beta.

Building a genset using a marine generator frame (marine diesel ready for the alternator) and a PMAC motor is doable as we have done about 6 of them.  Again not for the faint of heart.  We were not able to reduce the costs to where we wanted it, that is equal to or less than an ac genset of like power. 

Mike
Electric Yachts of Southern California

__._,_.___

Posted by: mike@electricyachtssocal.com
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: PROPELLER REGENERATION WITH HPEVs MOTOR UNDER SAIL?

 

Many thanks for your replies on this specific point, nice video

The lynch motors are good, but for a 45' boat, 72v is required (stepping out of the 50v DC safety thread hold). Futher, I had been told that regeneration with a Lynch is really not easy, and it needs more complex electronic than a controller

My choice was HPEV AC20

I could easily reach 8 knots with the boat in a 20-25 wind. The antifouling is three years old, I towed my dinghy and I need to replace a stay. So, I get only 6 knots at the speedo. I could get a little regeneration, but nothing.

The shaft spins, I can see it but I can't really count the rpm, it is too fast. I estimate a 4 to 5 rps  = 240-300 rpm. The 5/1 gearhead gives  950-1500rpm motor spin. When switching the system on, it stalls at less than a 60 rpm at the prop shaft. Not enough, I guess. By engaging the throttle slightly, I read a consumption of 1 or 2 amps.

 

When I receive the HPVS motor, there was an error in the phase. I had to connect the U to V and V to U terminals of the controller and motor.

Could it be an explanation to the problem? Any possible incidence for the motor regeneration? Should I play with the W terminal?

Cheers

Fred


On Friday, May 26, 2017, 3:04:01 AM GMT+12, 66b6dcd5b59507e7d751ea81382ea1f6 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Regarding regen, I've always found this video fun and luckily they have a bigger boat with decent speed and therefore regen:
https://youtu.be/5Yo4_mB9u4c

John R

__._,_.___

Posted by: Berlouin Fred <berlouin@yahoo.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Would using a BLDC/PMAC motor and controller as a generator be a good idea?

 

From their graph, regen (regardless of the 3 props they tried) generated about:

·       Near zero regen until 5kts

·       About 160watts/knt speed increase above 5kt

So unless you're at 5.5kts or more, you're basically not going to get usable regen.

Doubtful that you can do much better than that without going to larger props…I'd guess that changing from a very efficient permanent magnet brush motor to a brushless won't get you much improvement if any.  Most of the good ones of each type these days are up in the same efficiency range.  Increase prop diameter and now you're talking improvement.

And there's the rub: Folks will ask if regen is worth it, but the devil is in the details.  If you can swing a big, slow prop, AND IF you expect to be sailing or anchored in good current, sure, it could be worth it.  Most folks can't justify it.

I once put up my 400watt Air403 wind generator while heading upstream on the Columbia River.  We had a good 12knot following wind blowing.  The beauty of this was that the boat got a small amount of upstream push from the wind generator's wind drag while at the same time generating about 50 watts of power.  And there's the rub there: I'd never see 400watts from that wind generator unless I saw 2x that wind speed (ie 24kts) to get 8x the power (400w).  And it's a rare day that I'd be out motoring with a 24kt wind.  So I don't bring the Air403 wind generator along anymore---one 50watt solar panel can give the boat as much free power as 12kts of wind.

 

Anyway…

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 66b6dcd5b59507e7d751ea81382ea1f6
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 12:28 AM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Would using a BLDC/PMAC motor and controller as a generator be a good idea?

 

 

The regen video I posted earlier is a hybrid

https://youtu.be/5Yo4_mB9u4c

and it is from Graeme Hawksley of Hybrid Marine.

As you'll see in the page here he's using a brushed Lynch motor:

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/5.html

Having said that if you go to the home page they are now using brushless.

On the Lynch you can alter the brush timing by rotating the brush plate to optimise output, much as you would on an old car with points.

Somewhere I have the tests of a Lynch acting as a generator. If I find it I'll post.

John R

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Myles Twete" <matwete@comcast.net>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

[Electric Boats] Re: Would using a BLDC/PMAC motor and controller as a generator be a good idea?

 

The regen video I posted earlier is a hybrid

https://youtu.be/5Yo4_mB9u4c

and it is from Graeme Hawksley of Hybrid Marine.

As you'll see in the page here he's using a brushed Lynch motor:

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/5.html

Having said that if you go to the home page they are now using brushless.

On the Lynch you can alter the brush timing by rotating the brush plate to optimise output, much as you would on an old car with points.

Somewhere I have the tests of a Lynch acting as a generator. If I find it I'll post.

John R

__._,_.___
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___

Wednesday, May 24, 2017

[Electric Boats] Re: PROPELLER REGENERATION WITH HPEVs MOTOR UNDER SAIL?

 

Regarding regen, I've always found this video fun and luckily they have a bigger boat with decent speed and therefore regen:
https://youtu.be/5Yo4_mB9u4c

John R

__._,_.___
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)

Have you tried the highest rated email app?
With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.


.

__,_._,___