RE: [Electric Boats] Power Supply Backfeed

 

For sure when you connect a power supply to your pack you will get high inrush current due to the large output capacitors.  You see a spark if you apply a 12 chargers unpowered output to an auto battery.

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-------- Original message --------
From: luke.wolbrink@gmail.com
Date:04/21/2014 9:49 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] Power Supply Backfeed

 

Hello all,

I was finishing up some connections on my homebrewed 5kw system for a sailboat. A a precaution I've installed a 1000w 48v power supply that will operate from a generator in the event that my batteries get low. While I was hooking everthing together I noticed that when the power supply was off and hooked into the positive and negative busses properly as soon as I touched the negative wire from a battery to the negative terminal I would get a big-spark. I've since disconnected the power supply to avoid any short circuit issues with the batteries. I checked voltage at the power supply and read 0v when off and 48v when on, with no arcing when it was operating, only when off was there an issue.

Any ideas on what is going on? Likewise, what can I do short of installing a switch to connect and disconnect the power supply when not needed can I do to alleviate the issue?

Thanks,

~luke

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Re: [Electric Boats] Replacing Atomic with 0907 on the cheap, from scratch

 

You all bring up very good points and I find myself in agreement. I find myself in the situation of replacing an old Volvo Penta 3 cylinder that has an unobtainable broken crank. I did a lot of research (Thanks Sally and Mike for discussing this with me) but found my options were over budget for a professionally installed system. Then I found that Beta Diesel had a motor that would be a match but when doing the research found that the electric option would or should work out for my circumstance. As I've done a lot of refits over the years I figure what the hell and ordered a motor and controller. Brackets and couplings are being made now  and the parts should be in this week. Last decision to make is for the 48 volt battery bank which while I would love to put in Lithium just can't afford it at this time. Yup I am a do it yourselfer and good or bad if anyone is interested I can let you know how it goes. End result (I hope) is a Catana 42 (1990 version) with one Volvo Penta 2003 (still currently working),  one electric motor, one 6KW Northern lights generator, and a couple to be determined battery chargers for "range extension".

Cheers,

Ric

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[Electric Boats] Power Supply Backfeed

 

Hello all,

I was finishing up some connections on my homebrewed 5kw system for a sailboat. A a precaution I've installed a 1000w 48v power supply that will operate from a generator in the event that my batteries get low. While I was hooking everthing together I noticed that when the power supply was off and hooked into the positive and negative busses properly as soon as I touched the negative wire from a battery to the negative terminal I would get a big-spark. I've since disconnected the power supply to avoid any short circuit issues with the batteries. I checked voltage at the power supply and read 0v when off and 48v when on, with no arcing when it was operating, only when off was there an issue.

Any ideas on what is going on? Likewise, what can I do short of installing a switch to connect and disconnect the power supply when not needed can I do to alleviate the issue?

Thanks,

~luke

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Re: [Electric Boats] Replacing Atomic with 0907 on the cheap, from scratch

 

Sally,

100% agreement. And I haven't even decided to go electric myself as yet. My Atomic 4 is in parts in a mechanic's shop and I await his word as to cost of repair.

Who do you recommend in South Western Ontario / Great Lakes region for electric boats?

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Sally Reuther <smreuther@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Dominic,

You have a good point in that there are a number of people who have done their own systems and are quite happy with what they learned along the way and what they ended up with. And I totally agree with you that you should go right ahead and do your own system IF you are willing to put in the time to learn how to do it correctly - which it sounds as if you certainly are. 

Still, I know where Mike is coming from since we have also been approached by customers who have done their own systems in boats and have issues with things not working correctly. It is frustrating for us because as much as we would like to help those people, it is very time consuming for us, and expensive for the customer, to go through the forensics to determine what in the system is not working correctly. Even within the various professionally engineered systems there are differences which are particular to those systems. 

We have electric propulsion engineers who have spent years designing, testing, and improving upon the designs we, as vendors, now support. Each home designed system is a one-off for that particular person's boat. If that person has done the job completely by researching the proper equipment which should be used in a marine environment, followed ABYC standards for safely installing the electrical components, and documented everything as he went along, then he will have a system for his boat which should work well, and one he can be happy and proud of. 

I would encourage anyone who wants to do their own system and plans to keep their boat to go ahead. If they are considering selling their boat down the road with this system installed then you are going to find it a bit harder to find the right customer who will accept your design. However, that system is particular for that boat. It has no support from a manufacturer who knows the entire system. You may have individual components which have their own warranties, but be careful that those warranties may have been voided if you used the component in a way in which it was not intended. Resale value may be hurt because this is a home-built system with no guarantees. 

What this all boils down to is that there are right ways and wrong ways to go about building your own marine electric propulsion system. Sharing knowledge from lessons learned is great, but keep an open eye and look at answers from all angles - will it really work with what you are doing? Do the research, take the time, don't just get a bunch of parts and wires and start cobbling things together. Those who do that are the ones who don't understand why it doesn't work when they were told all these pieces when hooked together would be perfect for their boat. Any way you look at it, when you make the commitment to do something on your own, you are making a commitment to learn something new and that is going to take time and more money than you may think it will when you are finally completed. 

As you said Dominic, it's about the journey. Not everyone is up to the journey and those who aren't should buy from a company that can help them with their project and give them the support and service after they are done. For those folks, it will be a more enjoyable journey and end up being less time consuming and less expensive in the long run. 

Best of luck on your project Dominic. We'll all look forward to hearing about your successful completion.

Sally Reuther

Annapolis Hybrid Marine

Clean eMarine Americas

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Dominic Amann <dominic.amann@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Mike,

I am sure your heart is in the right place. However, there is a good chance your sample is skewed - the only people who would come to a professional to replace a failed electric system, or complain about one, are people who made mistakes. More than likely, those who did well, and are enjoying their systems would never come to you.

I am sure that any of the vendors you name would come up with an effective working system every time, within a predictable cost and time. I also get that "roll your own" will not save a whole lot of money if one buys properly spec'ed components new off the shelf. However, there are some - perhaps most on this board, who are interested from an experimentation point of view. The science is still fairly young, and there are still discoveries to be made, efficiencies to be found. Also some people have come across some bargain components - perhaps a battery bank, or a motor. They might well be able to build a system around that component and save some money, and learn a lot in the process.

Perhaps the advice should be - go ahead and roll your own if you are more interested in the journey than the destination, those who enjoy research, and know (or are prepared to learn) a fair bit of mechanical and electrical engineering.

I would argue that the industry would not even exist if people only listened to their vendors (which would all have been ICE vendors).

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:55 AM, <mike@electricyachtssocal.com> wrote:

 

I want to say that I really admire the guys who go on their own and build their own systems.  You are doing something that I was not comfortable with doing.  I have personally installed over 40 systems and will tell you that I am glad that I know and work with propulsion engineers.  I am a pretty bright guy and learned quickly, but what I did not know about designing, programing, engineering, and installing a marine propulsion system was a great deal.  There is a difference in pushing a boat than pushing a car or bike.  I also understand the issue of being under a budget constraint. 
Now for the But.
If your criteria is doing it inexpensively and you do not appreciate the issues of driving a boat with an electric motor, why are you doing it?  I have been approached weekly by guys who did their best and do not have "workable systems".  All the marine propulsion vendors can push the boats we are dealing with at or close to hull speed and without "overheating", with good control, and do so safely.  Buying motor parts on line does not necessary mean you have a workable reliable safe efficient and effective system.  And it likely will not be less expensive if it does not work well and if you end up retrofitting it trying and still may be unable to make it work properly.
Every marine vendor who visit this website can push a boat with authority.  Do so at a reasonable cost.  And warranty their work - Elco, ElectroProp, EClean Marine, MasterVolt and Electric Yacht. 
No motor should overheat if it is engineered correctly.  Gear it properly.  Have the correct heat management in the design.  Have a rigid strong frame that is easy to align and work efficiently with an appropriate propeller.  If you can not do that on your own, use a marine vendor who can.  If you still can not do it, why not just sail or use an outboard? 
I do not want to sound like a vendor who is trolling for business, but if you put yourself in a position to fail, you likely will.  Maybe I am off base on this but I have talked to some pretty disappointed sailors who had great expectations and little to show for their efforts or money.
Mike
Electric Yacht of Southern California

--

Dominic Amann
M 416-270-4587

--

Dominic Amann
M 416-270-4587

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Re: [Electric Boats] Replacing Atomic with 0907 on the cheap, from scratch

 

Dominic,

You have a good point in that there are a number of people who have done their own systems and are quite happy with what they learned along the way and what they ended up with. And I totally agree with you that you should go right ahead and do your own system IF you are willing to put in the time to learn how to do it correctly - which it sounds as if you certainly are. 

Still, I know where Mike is coming from since we have also been approached by customers who have done their own systems in boats and have issues with things not working correctly. It is frustrating for us because as much as we would like to help those people, it is very time consuming for us, and expensive for the customer, to go through the forensics to determine what in the system is not working correctly. Even within the various professionally engineered systems there are differences which are particular to those systems. 

We have electric propulsion engineers who have spent years designing, testing, and improving upon the designs we, as vendors, now support. Each home designed system is a one-off for that particular person's boat. If that person has done the job completely by researching the proper equipment which should be used in a marine environment, followed ABYC standards for safely installing the electrical components, and documented everything as he went along, then he will have a system for his boat which should work well, and one he can be happy and proud of. 

I would encourage anyone who wants to do their own system and plans to keep their boat to go ahead. If they are considering selling their boat down the road with this system installed then you are going to find it a bit harder to find the right customer who will accept your design. However, that system is particular for that boat. It has no support from a manufacturer who knows the entire system. You may have individual components which have their own warranties, but be careful that those warranties may have been voided if you used the component in a way in which it was not intended. Resale value may be hurt because this is a home-built system with no guarantees. 

What this all boils down to is that there are right ways and wrong ways to go about building your own marine electric propulsion system. Sharing knowledge from lessons learned is great, but keep an open eye and look at answers from all angles - will it really work with what you are doing? Do the research, take the time, don't just get a bunch of parts and wires and start cobbling things together. Those who do that are the ones who don't understand why it doesn't work when they were told all these pieces when hooked together would be perfect for their boat. Any way you look at it, when you make the commitment to do something on your own, you are making a commitment to learn something new and that is going to take time and more money than you may think it will when you are finally completed. 

As you said Dominic, it's about the journey. Not everyone is up to the journey and those who aren't should buy from a company that can help them with their project and give them the support and service after they are done. For those folks, it will be a more enjoyable journey and end up being less time consuming and less expensive in the long run. 

Best of luck on your project Dominic. We'll all look forward to hearing about your successful completion.

Sally Reuther

Annapolis Hybrid Marine

Clean eMarine Americas

 

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Dominic Amann <dominic.amann@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Mike,

I am sure your heart is in the right place. However, there is a good chance your sample is skewed - the only people who would come to a professional to replace a failed electric system, or complain about one, are people who made mistakes. More than likely, those who did well, and are enjoying their systems would never come to you.

I am sure that any of the vendors you name would come up with an effective working system every time, within a predictable cost and time. I also get that "roll your own" will not save a whole lot of money if one buys properly spec'ed components new off the shelf. However, there are some - perhaps most on this board, who are interested from an experimentation point of view. The science is still fairly young, and there are still discoveries to be made, efficiencies to be found. Also some people have come across some bargain components - perhaps a battery bank, or a motor. They might well be able to build a system around that component and save some money, and learn a lot in the process.

Perhaps the advice should be - go ahead and roll your own if you are more interested in the journey than the destination, those who enjoy research, and know (or are prepared to learn) a fair bit of mechanical and electrical engineering.

I would argue that the industry would not even exist if people only listened to their vendors (which would all have been ICE vendors).

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:55 AM, <mike@electricyachtssocal.com> wrote:

 

I want to say that I really admire the guys who go on their own and build their own systems.  You are doing something that I was not comfortable with doing.  I have personally installed over 40 systems and will tell you that I am glad that I know and work with propulsion engineers.  I am a pretty bright guy and learned quickly, but what I did not know about designing, programing, engineering, and installing a marine propulsion system was a great deal.  There is a difference in pushing a boat than pushing a car or bike.  I also understand the issue of being under a budget constraint. 
Now for the But.
If your criteria is doing it inexpensively and you do not appreciate the issues of driving a boat with an electric motor, why are you doing it?  I have been approached weekly by guys who did their best and do not have "workable systems".  All the marine propulsion vendors can push the boats we are dealing with at or close to hull speed and without "overheating", with good control, and do so safely.  Buying motor parts on line does not necessary mean you have a workable reliable safe efficient and effective system.  And it likely will not be less expensive if it does not work well and if you end up retrofitting it trying and still may be unable to make it work properly.
Every marine vendor who visit this website can push a boat with authority.  Do so at a reasonable cost.  And warranty their work - Elco, ElectroProp, EClean Marine, MasterVolt and Electric Yacht. 
No motor should overheat if it is engineered correctly.  Gear it properly.  Have the correct heat management in the design.  Have a rigid strong frame that is easy to align and work efficiently with an appropriate propeller.  If you can not do that on your own, use a marine vendor who can.  If you still can not do it, why not just sail or use an outboard? 
I do not want to sound like a vendor who is trolling for business, but if you put yourself in a position to fail, you likely will.  Maybe I am off base on this but I have talked to some pretty disappointed sailors who had great expectations and little to show for their efforts or money.
Mike
Electric Yacht of Southern California

--

Dominic Amann
M 416-270-4587

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Re: [Electric Boats] Replacing Atomic with 0907 on the cheap, from scratch

 

Mike,

I am sure your heart is in the right place. However, there is a good chance your sample is skewed - the only people who would come to a professional to replace a failed electric system, or complain about one, are people who made mistakes. More than likely, those who did well, and are enjoying their systems would never come to you.

I am sure that any of the vendors you name would come up with an effective working system every time, within a predictable cost and time. I also get that "roll your own" will not save a whole lot of money if one buys properly spec'ed components new off the shelf. However, there are some - perhaps most on this board, who are interested from an experimentation point of view. The science is still fairly young, and there are still discoveries to be made, efficiencies to be found. Also some people have come across some bargain components - perhaps a battery bank, or a motor. They might well be able to build a system around that component and save some money, and learn a lot in the process.

Perhaps the advice should be - go ahead and roll your own if you are more interested in the journey than the destination, those who enjoy research, and know (or are prepared to learn) a fair bit of mechanical and electrical engineering.

I would argue that the industry would not even exist if people only listened to their vendors (which would all have been ICE vendors).

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:55 AM, <mike@electricyachtssocal.com> wrote:

 

I want to say that I really admire the guys who go on their own and build their own systems.  You are doing something that I was not comfortable with doing.  I have personally installed over 40 systems and will tell you that I am glad that I know and work with propulsion engineers.  I am a pretty bright guy and learned quickly, but what I did not know about designing, programing, engineering, and installing a marine propulsion system was a great deal.  There is a difference in pushing a boat than pushing a car or bike.  I also understand the issue of being under a budget constraint. 
Now for the But.
If your criteria is doing it inexpensively and you do not appreciate the issues of driving a boat with an electric motor, why are you doing it?  I have been approached weekly by guys who did their best and do not have "workable systems".  All the marine propulsion vendors can push the boats we are dealing with at or close to hull speed and without "overheating", with good control, and do so safely.  Buying motor parts on line does not necessary mean you have a workable reliable safe efficient and effective system.  And it likely will not be less expensive if it does not work well and if you end up retrofitting it trying and still may be unable to make it work properly.
Every marine vendor who visit this website can push a boat with authority.  Do so at a reasonable cost.  And warranty their work - Elco, ElectroProp, EClean Marine, MasterVolt and Electric Yacht. 
No motor should overheat if it is engineered correctly.  Gear it properly.  Have the correct heat management in the design.  Have a rigid strong frame that is easy to align and work efficiently with an appropriate propeller.  If you can not do that on your own, use a marine vendor who can.  If you still can not do it, why not just sail or use an outboard? 
I do not want to sound like a vendor who is trolling for business, but if you put yourself in a position to fail, you likely will.  Maybe I am off base on this but I have talked to some pretty disappointed sailors who had great expectations and little to show for their efforts or money.
Mike
Electric Yacht of Southern California

--

Dominic Amann
M 416-270-4587

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Re: [Electric Boats] Replacing Atomic with 0907 on the cheap, from scratch

 

I want to say that I really admire the guys who go on their own and build their own systems.  You are doing something that I was not comfortable with doing.  I have personally installed over 40 systems and will tell you that I am glad that I know and work with propulsion engineers.  I am a pretty bright guy and learned quickly, but what I did not know about designing, programing, engineering, and installing a marine propulsion system was a great deal.  There is a difference in pushing a boat than pushing a car or bike.  I also understand the issue of being under a budget constraint. 
Now for the But.
If your criteria is doing it inexpensively and you do not appreciate the issues of driving a boat with an electric motor, why are you doing it?  I have been approached weekly by guys who did their best and do not have "workable systems".  All the marine propulsion vendors can push the boats we are dealing with at or close to hull speed and without "overheating", with good control, and do so safely.  Buying motor parts on line does not necessary mean you have a workable reliable safe efficient and effective system.  And it likely will not be less expensive if it does not work well and if you end up retrofitting it trying and still may be unable to make it work properly.
Every marine vendor who visit this website can push a boat with authority.  Do so at a reasonable cost.  And warranty their work - Elco, ElectroProp, EClean Marine, MasterVolt and Electric Yacht. 
No motor should overheat if it is engineered correctly.  Gear it properly.  Have the correct heat management in the design.  Have a rigid strong frame that is easy to align and work efficiently with an appropriate propeller.  If you can not do that on your own, use a marine vendor who can.  If you still can not do it, why not just sail or use an outboard? 
I do not want to sound like a vendor who is trolling for business, but if you put yourself in a position to fail, you likely will.  Maybe I am off base on this but I have talked to some pretty disappointed sailors who had great expectations and little to show for their efforts or money.
Mike
Electric Yacht of Southern California

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