Wednesday, August 28, 2013

RE: [Electric Boats] FYI - Methanol fuel cell battery charging

 

I can't wait for the day a fuelled charger becomes economically feasible for direct boat propulsion or battery replenishment. A clever fellow in these parts actually put together a hydrogen one of his own design a few years ago and powered a 6 metre sailboat with it. I visited with him to discuss, and it still had some rough edges at the time.

 

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=dc595066-34ef-4dc6-85ac-d9fada7549cb&sponsor=

 

And.. looks like he's still in business:

 

http://www.agofuelcells.com/index.html

 

Will have to go have another look.

 

- Nick

 

 

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sally Reuther
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:58 AM
To: electricboats
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] FYI - Methanol fuel cell battery charging

 

 

We've seen these EFOY units and talked with the company - we even had one to try out for a while. They are mainly for 12volt, although they offer a 24volt last I checked. For electric propulsion they can't offer much in the way of charging because they just aren't big enough to handle the larger amperage loads demanded. We are headed to IBEX in a couple of weeks and I'll be interested to see if there is anything new with this. I'll report back if I find anything new and exciting.

Sally Reuther

Annapolis Hybrid Marine

 

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Nick <chernikit@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Just an FYI - recently came across this Pacific Yachting article (Dec 2012) on some in-boat trials of a methanol fuel cell for battery charging produced by SFC (German company near Munich).

 

http://www.standard-hydrogen.com/PY_DEC12_EFOY.pdf

 

http://www.sfc.com/en

 

Looks expensive, but might be the just the right thing for some people.

 

- Nick

 

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Re: [Electric Boats] Care and feeding of LiFePo batteries?

 

Your chart does not have a "usable AH" row  which is what is important 99.9 % of the time.  The lead batteries rated at 100 AH have less then half the usable energy, when internal resistance and depth of recommended discharge is factored in.   Also a row on cost to keep charged would way heavily against lead.  There are so many factors that have to be factored in to compare which is better in which situation I would not bother to try.

But as for the voltage and charge profile for different chemistries,  a good battery charger manual should list there recommendations. One of my favorite chargers list by brand and type there recommended charge profiles in section 4.3.1 


That chart would fill in a lot of your rows. 

On Aug 28, 2013, at 3:33 PM, oak <oak_box@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I was concerned to see the statement:
"Also they were trickle charged at all times, another no no".

Does that apply to LiFePo batteries?
Can anyone provide a summary of what the do's and don'ts are for these batteries?

This is probably asking wayyyy too much, but wouldn't it be neat if we could make a matrix of FLA, AGM, LiFePo, and show the various properties of each in a side by side arrangement?

I'd really like to see this for a 12V battery:

Property FLA AGM LiFePo
"dead" voltage 9V 9V 14V
"max" charge v 14V 14V 16V
Trickle ch maintain? Yes Yes no(?)
Average cycle life 200? 300? 1200?
Average cost (100Ah) $80 $180 $500+(?)
Maint high - water/acid none none
BMS no no strongly recommended
recovery when dead? yes yes no

Any other traits we can add to this, or other things to be aware of??
Note:  by "recovery" - I heard that a Li battery is very good for holding it's voltage until it's dead.   But once it's dead - it's DEAD.  You can't wait for a few minutes and use it again lightly on the "recovery" like you can for FLA's.

John

From: Steve Dolan <sdolan@scannersllc.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: AGM Batteries?

 
Boeing's Dreamliner was an "international" plane built by contractors all over the world from many countries. As with anything like this it was a coordination nightmare. My understanding of this "event" was the problem was in the BMS system program not the batteries them selves. The system was spec'd to be at 100% charged at all times, something that has been determined to be on the ragged edge of theses batteries, you never want to overcharge them and this is what happened. They simply where over charged causing them to overheat. Also they where trickle charged at all times, another no no. I believe there were some issues with the BMS circuit boards as well on the bats. As for the chemistry, all it takes is someone to push hard from a major supplier from a country that planed to buy the Dreamliner who had an interest in sales first to talk someone into their product.   
 
Steve in Solomons MD
 
But sport planes don't carry hundreds of passengers. If the amount of weight difference between LiFePO and LiCo is that critical, I am sure that it could be made up by creating carbon fiber drink carts instead of aluminum ones ;-) or reducing the baggage allowance per passenger accordingly. 
The Dreamliner packs a total of about 5kwh of lithium batteries. Eric's 8kwh pack weighs 200lbs. So how much weight has been saved by using LiCo?
Using your own 25% lighter than LiFePO figure, that would amount to a whopping 50lbs. The maximum take-off weight of the Dreamliner is about 500,000lbs. So we're talking a 1% of 1% weight savings by using LiCo.  Bravo Boeing. 






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Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power

 

- if you have a flexible coupling (most will have) you put an electrically conductive strap (braid is good and it doesn't fatigue) across the flexible coupling (jubilee clip each side sounds rough but it works) so both sides of the shaft are at the same potential.
- i could not work out where the radio interference came from in a system with no brushes or other sources of spark/discharge which disappears when you brush earth your prop shaft and bond across a flexible coupling.
- i now think it might be from the 'electric etching' that occurs across/between the motors ball bearings from the induced field/voltage that occurs in most motors, so the brushes and shaft bonding will help eliminate this too.

cheers


On 28 August 2013 20:51, Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

All incoming power from the shore is on a ground fault interrupter isn't it?\

If not it should be.
 


From: Fred Liesegang <fred4936@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:07 AM

Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power

 
Thanks to all for the links and info! I will have to do something about a ground! The one thing I'm having trouble understanding is since the prop shaft is isolated (I have a flexable coupling), how can the current get to the water? I certainly do not want to create any sort of shock hazard, I just need to understand what is going on. If i do incorporate a grounding plate of some sort (maybe a thru-hull fitting), then there is ia definite path for the current to go. Is that the idea? 
 
Fred
 

From: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power
 
Fred,
 
Confusing subject with lots of "opinions" when you ask around but I would refer you to a link that was recently offered on this forum.
 

 
It is about the best information resource I have seen on the subject and offers some straight talk with eye opening examples.
 
 
Carter
From: fred4936 <fred4936@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:46 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Shore power
Hello Everyone, I'm putting s proper shore power system in my boat, which should make life easier and safer! I read an article from Don Casey about installing shore power systems, and he says to connect the green ground to the engine block. I no longer have an engine block, so that option does not exist. Both the 48v and 12v DC systems are floating, and I was going to make the 120v AC system the same. My prop shaft is also electrically isolated. I was curious as to how others handled this. Thanks to everyone in advance! Fred Liesegang Tartan 27-2 "Eagle" ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     electricboats-digest@yahoogroups.com     electricboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     electricboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





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Phone;  (+44)  02895 811251  -  Mobile;  (+44) 07427 696 796  -  Fax;  (+44) 0871 9898296
Company number;   NI067673

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Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power

 

A shaft brush to the water side would insure good earth ground.  The ideal is to have everything share a common ground voltage.  The reason it is recommended to have all your grounds connected is so that one "ground" does not become high enough that you or someone else becomes the path of least resistance between the two reference grounds.

But that will not save a swimmer out side your boat.  For that you need either ground fault protection or an isolation device on you boat where the AC comes in.   

West Marine sells some cheap-ish Isolators,  though a full isolation transformer would be better at 5 times the price.  Or you could go with a GFCI or ELCI Blue Sea is one company that makes boat versions of these devices


On Aug 28, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Fred Liesegang <fred4936@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Thanks to all for the links and info! I will have to do something about a ground! The one thing I'm having trouble understanding is since the prop shaft is isolated (I have a flexable coupling), how can the current get to the water? I certainly do not want to create any sort of shock hazard, I just need to understand what is going on. If i do incorporate a grounding plate of some sort (maybe a thru-hull fitting), then there is ia definite path for the current to go. Is that the idea? 
 
Fred
 

From: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power
 
Fred,
 
Confusing subject with lots of "opinions" when you ask around but I would refer you to a link that was recently offered on this forum.
 

 
It is about the best information resource I have seen on the subject and offers some straight talk with eye opening examples.
 
 
Carter
From: fred4936 <fred4936@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:46 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Shore power
Hello Everyone,I'm putting s proper shore power system in my boat, which should make life easier and safer! I read an article from Don Casey about installing shore power systems, and he says to connect the green ground to the engine block. I no longer have an engine block, so that option does not exist. Both the 48v and 12v DC systems are floating, and I was going to make the 120v AC system the same. My prop shaft is also electrically isolated. I was curious as to how others handled this. Thanks to everyone in advance!Fred LiesegangTartan 27-2 "Eagle"------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    electricboats-digest@yahoogroups.com     electricboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    electricboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Re: [Electric Boats] Depth Sounder / interference from electric motor system

 

The two things I would check first,  make sure the motor has a good earth ground,  or at the very least all the grounds on the boat share a common ground plate.  This will insure that the reference voltage of your grounds are the same.    

Second make sure the battery positive and negative cables are around the same length and  are physical as close together as they can be.   If your high amp cables are far apart and radically different lengths this can create radio interference. 



On Aug 26, 2013, at 10:46 PM, erichmadison <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

My 26' sloop is in its third season with an Electric Yacht 100ibl system. I've been meaning to pose this question ever since installing the system and realizing my depth sounder behaves erratically whenever the system's power is on. It seems fine an unaffected when the system's master switch is in the "on" position... it's only when the key switch is in "on" position that it gives me an error message. I turn the key off, and in a matter of seconds, readings are as they should be.

I searched the message archives and didn't find too much on the subject, but there was one post that argued that DC current shouldn't cause any interference. A bit of a long shot, but could the copper content of bottom paint create issues, aside from the usual "paint on face of transducer" problem?

The transducer is a through-hull mount and located a fair distance from the battery bank and motor itself (at least 6 feet). Should I try adding shielding to the transducer wire?

Thanks

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[Electric Boats] Care and feeding of LiFePo batteries?

 

I was concerned to see the statement:
"Also they were trickle charged at all times, another no no".

Does that apply to LiFePo batteries?
Can anyone provide a summary of what the do's and don'ts are for these batteries?

This is probably asking wayyyy too much, but wouldn't it be neat if we could make a matrix of FLA, AGM, LiFePo, and show the various properties of each in a side by side arrangement?

I'd really like to see this for a 12V battery:

Property FLA AGM LiFePo
"dead" voltage 9V 9V 14V
"max" charge v 14V 14V 16V
Trickle ch maintain? Yes Yes no(?)
Average cycle life 200? 300? 1200?
Average cost (100Ah) $80 $180 $500+(?)
Maint high - water/acid none none
BMS no no strongly recommended
recovery when dead? yes yes no

Any other traits we can add to this, or other things to be aware of??
Note:  by "recovery" - I heard that a Li battery is very good for holding it's voltage until it's dead.   But once it's dead - it's DEAD.  You can't wait for a few minutes and use it again lightly on the "recovery" like you can for FLA's.

John

From: Steve Dolan <sdolan@scannersllc.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: AGM Batteries?

 
Boeing's Dreamliner was an "international" plane built by contractors all over the world from many countries. As with anything like this it was a coordination nightmare. My understanding of this "event" was the problem was in the BMS system program not the batteries them selves. The system was spec'd to be at 100% charged at all times, something that has been determined to be on the ragged edge of theses batteries, you never want to overcharge them and this is what happened. They simply where over charged causing them to overheat. Also they where trickle charged at all times, another no no. I believe there were some issues with the BMS circuit boards as well on the bats. As for the chemistry, all it takes is someone to push hard from a major supplier from a country that planed to buy the Dreamliner who had an interest in sales first to talk someone into their product.   
 
Steve in Solomons MD
 
But sport planes don't carry hundreds of passengers. If the amount of weight difference between LiFePO and LiCo is that critical, I am sure that it could be made up by creating carbon fiber drink carts instead of aluminum ones ;-) or reducing the baggage allowance per passenger accordingly. 
The Dreamliner packs a total of about 5kwh of lithium batteries. Eric's 8kwh pack weighs 200lbs. So how much weight has been saved by using LiCo?
Using your own 25% lighter than LiFePO figure, that would amount to a whopping 50lbs. The maximum take-off weight of the Dreamliner is about 500,000lbs. So we're talking a 1% of 1% weight savings by using LiCo.  Bravo Boeing. 






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Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power

 

All incoming power from the shore is on a ground fault interrupter isn't it?\

If not it should be.
 


From: Fred Liesegang <fred4936@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power

 
Thanks to all for the links and info! I will have to do something about a ground! The one thing I'm having trouble understanding is since the prop shaft is isolated (I have a flexable coupling), how can the current get to the water? I certainly do not want to create any sort of shock hazard, I just need to understand what is going on. If i do incorporate a grounding plate of some sort (maybe a thru-hull fitting), then there is ia definite path for the current to go. Is that the idea? 
 
Fred
 

From: Carter Quillen <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Shore power
 
Fred,
 
Confusing subject with lots of "opinions" when you ask around but I would refer you to a link that was recently offered on this forum.
 

 
It is about the best information resource I have seen on the subject and offers some straight talk with eye opening examples.
 
 
Carter
From: fred4936 <fred4936@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:46 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Shore power
Hello Everyone, I'm putting s proper shore power system in my boat, which should make life easier and safer! I read an article from Don Casey about installing shore power systems, and he says to connect the green ground to the engine block. I no longer have an engine block, so that option does not exist. Both the 48v and 12v DC systems are floating, and I was going to make the 120v AC system the same. My prop shaft is also electrically isolated. I was curious as to how others handled this. Thanks to everyone in advance! Fred Liesegang Tartan 27-2 "Eagle" ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     electricboats-digest@yahoogroups.com     electricboats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     electricboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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