Friday, July 26, 2013

Re: [Electric Boats] Crosswiring batteries - or who charges who?

 

I have a simular set up but I did add a 12 volt charger that I use when running the gen which plugs into the normal shorw power plug.
Richard

rwsailor <marinelli.manuel@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hello everyone, I was curious about how you people out there are wiring your chargers, Batteries and house batteries against each other?
>
>So here is my thinking:
>I have the 48 Volt Battery bank for my Electric drive and a 12V Battery for house loads. The 12V are charged off a 48 Volt to 12Volt converter.
>The n there is a solar Panel producing 12 Volt via a MPPT Controller, which is linked to a 12V to 48 Volt converter to charge the 48Volt Bank.
>Also there is a Bettery charger for the 48 Volt in case shore power is hooked up. I don't think an extra 12 Volt charger makes sense (or am I wrong there?)
>
>And then of course there could be a Generator as well as backup: Do you just hook that up to shore power and charge that way or hook it up seperately somewhere else?
>
>I'm grateful for any advice people can give me on how to wire it all together!
>Thank you all already!
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Multiple source charge controller?

 

> > Do that with my 'mains' charger and it won't even start. It requires a
> > battery voltage.

You can put a resistor across the diode(s) so the charger senses the
battery voltage. I've used 1K ohm successfully. Not much current will
flow through that, so it's still 'virtually' isolated for most
considerations. OTOH once it starts charging it'll think the battery
voltage is one diode drop higher than it is - a benefit if you want
it to let the solar or other power do the charging if they're
working. I put in two diodes. Basically it's a backup to run the
equipment when there's no solar.

Craig

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Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 

Most regulators won't pull current when connected to the battery in the absence of an input.
Place the diodes between the current source and the regulators to keep their 14.2v output without the diode drop.

Arby


From: greenpjs04 <forums@greensdomain.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 
Not really. It (using diodes with outputs connected in parallel) allows you to safely connect multiple devices simultaneously but the device that is outputting the highest voltage at the time will be the only one supplying current to the batteries. If that device's voltage drops to equal another, both will supply current, but in most cases, only one device will be charging the batteries at a time.

With modern electronics, I will guess the charge controller you wish for will be available soon. It would take power from each source device and convert the DC voltage to whatever is needed to match the others. Multiple inputs would do that for each source regardless of its instantaneous voltage at the time. As you say, micro-inverters show that similar complex functions are possible at a reasonable cost so it is only a matter of time.

Pat

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, oak <oak_box@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, but it at least allows you to pull from multiple devices simultaneously.
>
> I would be surprised if anyone had a device that could mix and match multiple sources and get peak efficiency from each - though that would be great!
>
> As mentioned, the micro-inverters sound like the closest thing to that - but they don't (yet) exist for DC (that we know of).
>
> John
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...>
> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>  simpler but doesn't extract maximum power from several devices with different criteria.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: oak <oak_box@...>
> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
> Wouldn't  it work to run each power source (except for grid battery chargers) through a diode, and then the parallel of the diode outputs into a single charge controller??
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...>
> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
> I suppose the proper way to do it is feed each source into a maximum power point tracker  and sum the outputs of those into the battery pack. They all share the same battery algorithms so sharing should not be a problem. If the battery is in danger of overcharging the propulsion motor is a convenient load, unless conditions don't permit it.
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Scott <flyscott06@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
> This is a great company. Lots of good info
> http://www.mwands.com/ missouri wind and solar. They have the systems you are looking for. Good luck.scotty
> On Jul 24, 2013 11:06 AM, "qgold77" <qgold.77@...> wrote:
>
>
> > 
> >Hello - an old lurker here, but have a quest I'm sure a wise person in this group can help with. I'm looking for device that will take inputs from multiple power sources such as wind/water/solar/shore power/on board generator etc and control the the charging of a couple of battery banks. Can anyone give me a lead?
> >
> >Thanks - Nick
> >
> >
>



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[Electric Boats] Hello!

 

Hello everyone,
I am a new member of this group and just wanted to tell you a little about myself. I hope to meet many fellow electric enthusiasts here. I also hope to gain more knowledge about electric setups. I have a Newport 30 sailboat that I have just pulled the motor out of and am looking over possible electric replacements. I have seen a few different systems that are sold on ebay and have been on a few out here in SF Bay. There doesn't seem to be an end to the number of electric vendors out there. I wanted to know if someone could steer me toward the top 5 so that I could focus my investigations in that direction. I am looking for a electric system that is 48v and about 7.5kw or better. By no means am I savvy in electronic motor setups. I do have a little experience with solar panels, controllers and batteries. I put together a little system a few years back for a home out in the mountains. It worked well. We were able to power a refridgerator, house lights and an entertainment system. We also had a honda generator for those days that the sun wouldn't come out. In any case thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing from you.

Best Regards,
Rob

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Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 

Not really. It (using diodes with outputs connected in parallel) allows you to safely connect multiple devices simultaneously but the device that is outputting the highest voltage at the time will be the only one supplying current to the batteries. If that device's voltage drops to equal another, both will supply current, but in most cases, only one device will be charging the batteries at a time.

With modern electronics, I will guess the charge controller you wish for will be available soon. It would take power from each source device and convert the DC voltage to whatever is needed to match the others. Multiple inputs would do that for each source regardless of its instantaneous voltage at the time. As you say, micro-inverters show that similar complex functions are possible at a reasonable cost so it is only a matter of time.

Pat

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, oak <oak_box@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, but it at least allows you to pull from multiple devices simultaneously.
>
> I would be surprised if anyone had a device that could mix and match multiple sources and get peak efficiency from each - though that would be great!
>
> As mentioned, the micro-inverters sound like the closest thing to that - but they don't (yet) exist for DC (that we know of).
>
> John
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...>
> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>  simpler but doesn't extract maximum power from several devices with different criteria.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: oak <oak_box@...>
> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
> Wouldn't  it work to run each power source (except for grid battery chargers) through a diode, and then the parallel of the diode outputs into a single charge controller??
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...>
> To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
> I suppose the proper way to do it is feed each source into a maximum power point tracker  and sum the outputs of those into the battery pack. They all share the same battery algorithms so sharing should not be a problem. If the battery is in danger of overcharging the propulsion motor is a convenient load, unless conditions don't permit it.
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Scott <flyscott06@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?
>
>
>
>  
> This is a great company. Lots of good info
> http://www.mwands.com/ missouri wind and solar. They have the systems you are looking for. Good luck.scotty
> On Jul 24, 2013 11:06 AM, "qgold77" <qgold.77@...> wrote:
>
>
> > 
> >Hello - an old lurker here, but have a quest I'm sure a wise person in this group can help with. I'm looking for device that will take inputs from multiple power sources such as wind/water/solar/shore power/on board generator etc and control the the charging of a couple of battery banks. Can anyone give me a lead?
> >
> >Thanks - Nick
> >
> >
>

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Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 

Ok, but it at least allows you to pull from multiple devices simultaneously.

I would be surprised if anyone had a device that could mix and match multiple sources and get peak efficiency from each - though that would be great!

As mentioned, the micro-inverters sound like the closest thing to that - but they don't (yet) exist for DC (that we know of).

John

From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 

 simpler but doesn't extract maximum power from several devices with different criteria.


From: oak <oak_box@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 
Wouldn't  it work to run each power source (except for grid battery chargers) through a diode, and then the parallel of the diode outputs into a single charge controller??

From: Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@yahoo.com>
To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 
I suppose the proper way to do it is feed each source into a maximum power point tracker  and sum the outputs of those into the battery pack. They all share the same battery algorithms so sharing should not be a problem. If the battery is in danger of overcharging the propulsion motor is a convenient load, unless conditions don't permit it.
 


From: John Scott <flyscott06@gmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 
This is a great company. Lots of good info
http://www.mwands.com/ missouri wind and solar. They have the systems you are looking for. Good luck.scotty
On Jul 24, 2013 11:06 AM, "qgold77" <qgold.77@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hello - an old lurker here, but have a quest I'm sure a wise person in this group can help with. I'm looking for device that will take inputs from multiple power sources such as wind/water/solar/shore power/on board generator etc and control the the charging of a couple of battery banks. Can anyone give me a lead?

Thanks - Nick









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Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?

 

Carter,

Only that we were not discussing your system.

Trend is trend for a reason. Well not all the time. My system has to contend with shade even if it comes from me. All sources have controllers. The wind controller is home built turning the generator into the wind and starting it when useable wind presents itself. Then turns out of the wind to control the output. Not like a shunt system

Kevin

On Jul 25, 2013 9:06 PM, "Carter Quillen" <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Kevin,
 
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you once again, for my application anyway. I'm getting everything the panels have to offer and the system works great.
 
First off, the micro inverter system you are talking about, which is the big trend in grid tie systems right now as you point out, is not the way to go for my type of application. Because I need to have a DC centric system, I don't want to invert it at the panel since I'm using the panels to charge batteries which then feed both my propulsion system and  house power in parrallel, The house power is inverted with a 48VDC to 120VAC  unit which supplies all the standard appliances I have on the boat, refrigerator/freezer, A/C, microwave, toaster, TV,DVD etc. The propulsion systems takes the 48Volts directly.
 
Second, partial shading is not an issue for me.  I have designed my system with nothing above the panels, unlike what you admittedly might have on a sailboat or a house where partial shading can be a big issue. Also, because my arrays can track the sun, they are always exposed for maximum generation. Even if there was some sort of external shade, say, at a dock, because I have eight independent two panel arrays wired in parallel feeding the controller, and each panel has three separate parallel, diode protected, circuits in it, my losses from any partial shade conditions are very minimal and only a fraction of the array gets disabled from any partial shade. This can be a big issue in an array wired in series, as many household grid tie systems are, but my "boat" is not.  Plus, when I am at a dock or anchored, I only need a fraction of my capacity anyway. Since the array is sized for propulsion, I have more power than I know what to do with when I'm not moving and most of my capacity is usually in standby in that situation.
 
For back up, my "fuel type" generator is in wired in parrallel with the solar array and charges the batteries directly, bypassing the "high dollar" controller.
 
I can't really comment that much from experience on wind applications, as I currently do not have a windmill. But I am planning to get one soon. I will equip it with the ability to be easily lowered when I'm underway to avoid shading/wind drag issues and then raised again at night when I need the auxillary input. Thus hopefully just about putting my Honda EU2000 and QuickCharger out of business most of the time.  And , since my solar charge controller is pretty much maxed out right now, I'll have to add a separate charge controller for that anyway.  But I'm pretty sure I could just feed it into the FM 80 if it had any latent capacity left. Although this would only be an issue if I had it generating when the sun was out.
 
Although the industry has been trending away from DC centric systems with batteries and charge controllers for some time now, and the new micro inverters are quickly replacing series wired arrays because of the partial shade issues, it is not a "do all" for "everything" replacement. DC centricity is still hands down the way to go for "off grid" applications, which a boat clearly is, and series wired array, grid tie systems are  still a good alternative for installations where partial shading is not an issue because you only have one big inverter to worry about, instead of  dozens of little ones.
 
Did I miss anything?
 
Carter

From: Kevin Pemberton <pembertonkevin@gmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?



Glad to know you have not had problems. You are not getting the best out of any of them.
The move is to individual controllers like micro inverter/ controllers that are  installed on each panel in an array.
Wind controllers work under different conditions. Fuel type generators are feed into your high dollar charger. What. Did I  miss?  Oh yes, all solar panels into one controller produce at the lowest watt.panel. one shaded panel and the output is close to zero.  What is the advantage to that kind of system?
Kevin
On Jul 24, 2013 10:02 PM, "Carter Quillen" <twowheelinguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I disagreee. I've seen several charge controllers that would take multiple inputs and I'm guessing most of them will. I don't think they care where the electrons are coming from. Might be some issues if you have wildly varying voltages from the different devices and I'd keep the nominal inputs consistent. I know I have several different panels from different manufacturers all feeding into one Flexmax 80 without any problems and I've seen many schematics before that show solar panels, wind turbines and microhydro all feeding into the same charge controller but they where all going to one battery bank. Be careful not to exceed the capacity of the charge controller though.
 
However, I've never seen a charge controller that would charge multiple battery banks and I studied a lot of different models from different manufacturers before I decided to go with the Outback FM80 for the Arc. Since the charge controller takes its cues for what mode to be in from the battery, you'll need a separate controller for each bank. That's the way every system I've ever seen was set up. 
 
But you can feed a controller from different sources for sure.
 
Carter
From: Kevin Pemberton <pembertonkevin@gmail.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Multiple source charge controller?



I don't think you will find one controller for all devices. What you need is a controller for each source. They will work together so no problem.
Kevin
On Jul 24, 2013 6:06 PM, "qgold77" <qgold.77@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hello - an old lurker here, but have a quest I'm sure a wise person in this group can help with. I'm looking for device that will take inputs from multiple power sources such as wind/water/solar/shore power/on board generator etc and control the the charging of a couple of battery banks. Can anyone give me a lead?

Thanks - Nick









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