T-Pain Is On A Boat

Saturday, January 28, 2012

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

Martin,

Let me give a slight addition to the comments on Lithium batteries. I electrified a boat with LiFePO4 batteries for one reason: high energy density. My 160 Ah 48v nominal bank weighs 200 lbs. With my Torqeedo 4R, I got my 15' aluminum utility up on a plane for 25+ miles. You do have to exercise some care in charging and monitoring but it is not very difficult or expensive. A 25 amp 48v 3-stage charger designed for Li costs about $500. A mini-bms battery management system is about $200. You can spend much more but these are completely adequate for marine applications. I had no difficulty in locating a source for the batteries. There is a large market created by the diy electric car people.

However, if you are converting a sail boat or other application where weight is not an issue or even may be an advantage then definitely go with the AGMs. They are much cheaper initially.

If you need more help on LiFePO4s let me know.

Ned

On Jan 28, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Bill Heintz wrote:

On Jan 26, 2012, at 09:44, martin demers wrote:
I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats

A very good question Martin. [and I'm not sure I am qualified to answer ;)]

I chose AGM (lead acid) batteries for my boat for pragmatic reasons:

I'm not a battery expert, and where I hope to travel, I don't suppose I will find a whole lot. AGM's were a smaller initial investment, it is easier to charge, and [I think] I understand the chemistry of it enough to charge them properly and keep them sufficiently maintained. If I travel and need a replacement, I can quickly get a replacement. Until my wallet starts to get too heavy I will probably stick with lead acid.

On oversimplified comparison . . .

Lead Acid: (includes flooded, SLA, VRLA, AGM, and GEL)

Advantages: cheaper, proven technology, easy to replace, chargers are readily available, a large bank of batteries can be charged all in series, no memory, high over-charge tolerance
Limitations: heavy (30-50 wh/kg), cannot be left in a low-discharged condition, a deep cell battery has perhaps 300 cycles, high internal resistance, takes a while to charge (8-16 hrs), contains Lead

Li-Polymer: (LiCoO₂, LiMn₂O₄, LiFePO₄, LiNiMnCoO₂, LiNiCoAlO₂, and Li₄Ti₅O₁₂ to name a few see Notes below)

Advantages: lighter (100-130 wh/kg), can be made environmentally friendly (no Pb, Cd, or Hg), 1,000+ cycles, no memory, lowest internal resistance of rechargeable batteries, faster charge (2-4 hrs)
Limitations: expensive, charging properly is critical, chargers are expensive, (each cell needs to be monitored and charged individually when charging), low over-charge tolerance, hard to find a dealer that will sell you one suitable for a DIY-EV boat (24-48vdc boats are either too big or too small)

In the Title Post, the battery chemistry refers to Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt LiNiMnCoO2 (NMC)

Notes on Lithium Ion (Li-ion) and and Lithium Polymer (Li-po)†:

• Scientists and the media give Li-ion batteries unique names but unless you are a scientist, this might cause confusion.

• The polymer hype of the early 2000s is still going strong, however most users cannot distinguish between a regular Li-ion and one with polymer architecture.

• All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with moisture. The correct term is "Lithium-ion Polymer" (Li-ion polymer or Li-polymer for short.)

• Li-polymer can be build on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese.

• As far the consumer is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially the sam as the lithium ion battery.

† - Batteries in a Portable World - Isidor Bunchmann - pp. 59-60. See also "Battery Types" on www.BatteryUniversity.com, an up-to-date reference for comparing different battery chemistries.

Types of Li-ion batteries: Table 2-10†

Chemical name
Material
Abbreviation
Short form
Notes
Lithium Cobalt Oxide¹
Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt)
LiCoO₂(60% Co)
LCO
Li-cobalt

High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera
Lithium
Manganese Oxide¹
Also Lithium Manganate
or lithium-ion-manganese
LiMn₂O₄
LMO
Li-manganese, or spinel

Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and long life.
Power tools,
e-bikes, EV, medical, hobbyist.
Lithium
Iron Phosphate¹
LiFePO₄
LFP
Li-phosphate
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide¹,also lithium-manganese-cobalt-oxide
LiNiMnCoO₂(10–20% Co)
NMC
NMC

Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide¹
LiNiCoAlO₂
9% Co)
NCA
NCA
Gaining importance
in electric powertrain and grid storage
Lithium Titanate²
Li₄Ti₅O₁₂
LTO
Li-titanate
Table 1: Reference names for Li-ion batteries. We will use the short form when appropriate.
¹ Cathode material ² Anode material

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

On Jan 26, 2012, at 09:44, martin demers wrote:

I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats

A very good question Martin. [and I'm not sure I am qualified to answer ;)]

I chose AGM (lead acid) batteries for my boat for pragmatic reasons:

I'm not a battery expert, and where I hope to travel, I don't suppose I will find a whole lot. AGM's were a smaller initial investment, it is easier to charge, and [I think] I understand the chemistry of it enough to charge them properly and keep them sufficiently maintained. If I travel and need a replacement, I can quickly get a replacement. Until my wallet starts to get too heavy I will probably stick with lead acid.

On oversimplified comparison . . .

Lead Acid: (includes flooded, SLA, VRLA, AGM, and GEL)

Advantages: cheaper, proven technology, easy to replace, chargers are readily available, a large bank of batteries can be charged all in series, no memory, high over-charge tolerance

Limitations: heavy (30-50 wh/kg), cannot be left in a low-discharged condition, a deep cell battery has perhaps 300 cycles, high internal resistance, takes a while to charge (8-16 hrs), contains Lead

Li-Polymer: (LiCoO₂, LiMn₂O₄, LiFePO₄, LiNiMnCoO₂, LiNiCoAlO₂, and Li₄Ti₅O₁₂ to name a few see Notes below)

Advantages: lighter (100-130 wh/kg), can be made environmentally friendly (no Pb, Cd, or Hg), 1,000+ cycles, no memory, lowest internal resistance of rechargeable batteries, faster charge (2-4 hrs)

Limitations: expensive, charging properly is critical, chargers are expensive, (each cell needs to be monitored and charged individually when charging), low over-charge tolerance, hard to find a dealer that will sell you one suitable for a DIY-EV boat (24-48vdc boats are either too big or too small)

In the Title Post, the battery chemistry refers to Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt LiNiMnCoO2 (NMC)

Notes on Lithium Ion (Li-ion) and and Lithium Polymer (Li-po)†:

• Scientists and the media give Li-ion batteries unique names but unless you are a scientist, this might cause confusion.

• The polymer hype of the early 2000s is still going strong, however most users cannot distinguish between a regular Li-ion and one with polymer architecture.

• All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with moisture. The correct term is "Lithium-ion Polymer" (Li-ion polymer or Li-polymer for short.)

• Li-polymer can be build on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese.

• As far the consumer is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially the sam as the lithium ion battery.

† - Batteries in a Portable World - Isidor Bunchmann - pp. 59-60. See also "Battery Types" on www.BatteryUniversity.com, an up-to-date reference for comparing different battery chemistries.

Types of Li-ion batteries: Table 2-10†

Chemical name	Material	Abbreviation	Short form	Notes
Lithium Cobalt Oxide¹ Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt)	LiCoO₂(60% Co)	LCO	Li-cobalt	High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera
Lithium Manganese Oxide¹ Also Lithium Manganate or lithium-ion-manganese	LiMn₂O₄	LMO	Li-manganese, or spinel	Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and long life. Power tools, e-bikes, EV, medical, hobbyist.
Lithium Iron Phosphate¹	LiFePO₄	LFP	Li-phosphate
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide¹,also lithium-manganese-cobalt-oxide	LiNiMnCoO₂(10–20% Co)	NMC	NMC
Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide¹	LiNiCoAlO₂ 9% Co)	NCA	NCA	Gaining importance in electric powertrain and grid storage
Lithium Titanate²	Li₄Ti₅O₁₂	LTO	Li-titanate	Gaining importance in electric powertrain and grid storage

Table 1: Reference names for Li-ion batteries. We will use the short form when appropriate.

¹ Cathode material ² Anode material

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Friday, January 27, 2012

[Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

Lithium-Ion is a generic term for virtually all rechargable Lithium batteries. All of the Lithium batteries that we have discussed recently are Lithium-Ion.

"A lithium-ion battery (sometimes Li-ion battery or LIB) is a family of rechargeable battery types in which lithium ions move from the negative electrode to the positive electrode during discharge, and back when charging. Chemistry, performance, cost, and safety characteristics vary across LIB types. Unlike lithium primary batteries (which are disposable), lithium-ion electrochemical cells use an intercalated lithium compound as the electrode material instead of metallic lithium."

So, we can assume that any time someone mentions Lithium batteries in this group, they are talking about Li-ion batteries (unless they use disposable batteries!?!) As discussed Lithium Polymer (which are used in mobile devices and some cars like the Tesla) are more succeptable to physical damage which can result in the battery catching on fire. Extremely high discharge rates (10C and above) may also result in meltdowns. Most of the Li-Po batteries are Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO) batteries and are available in pouch or cylindrical formats.

But in boating, only drag boats should see those kinds of discharge rates and those boats are the only ones that should need the more expensive Li-Po batteries. For full discharges that take longer than seconds or minutes, the hard shell Lithium batteries are more approriate. A pack could be built from cylindrical cells, but requires more connections which are not as desireable in a marine environment. Prismatic formats have more capacity per cell and lend themselves well to traction packs in boats and EVs. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is most common type of prismatic cell today and are very stable (safe). Torqeedo uses Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMnO) cells in their products, they are also quite stable. I believe that someone might be making Lithium Nickel Oxide (LiNiO) cells, but they are not common.

So, when you read Li-ion in an article or in promotional material, it's not identifying anything more than a rechargable Lithium battery. More information is required to determine the specific attributes about that battery, such as format, max discharge rate, safety, etc.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
>
> Lithium ion batteries like used in most mobile devices and some cars are the Lithium batteries most likely to catch on fire. The Tesla has a large cooling system for its batteries, to prevent this. LiFe-Po do not have the runaway heat problem that causes this in Li ion batteries. I don't know about other Lithium batteries.
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

Lithium ion batteries like used in most mobile devices and some cars are the Lithium batteries most likely to catch on fire. The Tesla has a large cooling system for its batteries, to prevent this. LiFe-Po do not have the runaway heat problem that causes this in Li ion batteries. I don't know about other Lithium batteries.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "rschwirz" <rschwirz@...> wrote:
>
>
> Interesting info
> I have been using Lithium Polymer Batteries for years with my the remote control model airplanes and I like them.
> They are very good.
> Model airplane enthusiast also know there comes a danger with Li-Poly batteries.
> I several cases the airplanes burst into flames while the batteries are been charged. Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.
> The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air
> It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.
> I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.
> There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.
>
> Robert
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Heintz <bheintz@> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV -
> > Netherlands
> > Monday, January 23, 2012
> >
> >
> > ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with
> > Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed
> > and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems
> > in the most harsh environment.
> > Energy storage
> > With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost
> > effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution
> > to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which
> > normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized
> > power management.
> > This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the
> > special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical
> > composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which
> > guarantees long lifetime and little wear.
> > Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with
> > extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).
> > The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible
> > to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over
> > 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.
> > With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power
> > battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been
> > developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.
> > The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead
> > of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the
> > already high reliability of the battery systems.
> > Battery Management System
> > To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies
> > has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly
> > active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market
> > today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It
> > can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even
> > between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This
> > is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to
> > ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy
> > storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the
> > battery module itself.
> > The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers
> > like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for
> > durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced
> > amount of parts.
> > Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is
> > needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active
> > balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an
> > imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from
> > the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are
> > always 100% balanced.
> > The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series,
> > the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series
> > in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and
> > installation of the complete system including battery, total battery
> > management and safety features.
> > Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and
> > is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and
> > connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.
> > Further Development
> > ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a
> > very important step forward. They have found positive improvements
> > regarding the weight of the batteries.
> > ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries
> > with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is
> > lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.
> > Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:
> > • Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections
> > • Certified for high DC voltage systems
> > • Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%
> > • Configurable for Mega-Watt applications
> > • Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size
> > • Designed for large energy storage systems
> > • Maintenance free
> > • Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)
> > • 10 years limited warranty
> >
>

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[Electric Boats] Looking at the options

Apologies for another 'I'm thinking about converting...' post.

I have what is known as a Sussex Beach boat, a short, broad, shallow, fairly heavy open boat of around 16ft, currently powered by a 15hp air cooled diesel which is very noisy. I need to change either to a newer diesel or be brave and go electric.

The boat lives in Chichester Marina (UK). Re-charging would be easy. I rarely go out for more than 6 hours. Most of this is spent in the harbour where the speed limit is 8 knots (can't reach that anyway). Tidal streams and wind can be quite strong ( tide 5-6 knots at times).

The boat has quite a lot of ballast in it so changing this for a good sized array of batteries would not be a problem. There is plenty of room. Prop is three bladed, turning at 1500 rpm. Not sure of size or pitch. I could even have room to accomodate some sort of generator set as a 'get you home' if needed.

I have two questions to start with:

Is electric power viable for such an application bearing in mind the need to push against the tide?

Is there anyone around my area who has done such a conversion?

Many thanks in advance

Michael
(Bobolink)

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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

true too, model planes, fast electric model boats, the discharge rates ARE pretty crazy.

been about 20 yr ago now, scratch built an electric outrigger hydro that'd drain a 7 cell pack of nicads in about 2-1/2 minutes.. yeah it was fast, had a water cooling coil on the motor and an air duct straight to the motors brushes. thats models! demand being 5-6x beyond anything rational-reasonable, heck yeah induvidual cells would fail for that kind of abuse!

sure was fun outrunning gas powered model boats in short races.

--- On Fri, 1/27/12, andrew@fastelectrics.com <andrew@fastelectrics.com> wrote:

From: andrew@fastelectrics.com <andrew@fastelectrics.com>
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 3:04 AM

ROBERT

* lithium cobalt formulations have never burst into flame because of contact with air

* the risks are:
- impact damage causing internal shorts - can cause fire
- over charging can cause fire
- over discharge - too high a rate can cause fire - but taking to a ultra low charge state wrecks the cells
- using cells which are too cold can result in massive overheating and fire
- USERS ignoring obvious signs of damage such as impact marks, puffing and overheating
- makers over specifying cells and users refusing to accept that this was the case

These are risks in ultra high discharge situations eg near maximum cell discharge rates

People who have fires in cell charging have either failed to use a balancing charger or ignored the signs of damage to cells

As presented the battery system in question should be very safe
* they have impact resistant cases
* good connections system
* full time battery management

The scaremongering over the dangers of lipo has been legendary and associated with misuse of cells, inappropriate cells and refusal of users to accept repsonsibility for their own actions.

Having used Lithium cobalt for the last 10 years in ultra high out put systems, my experience suggest used appropriately used Lithium cobalt is increasing stable safe and very very powerful.

Andrew Gilchrist

----- Original Message -----
From: rschwirz [mailto:rschwirz@sbcglobal.net]
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:09:03 -0000
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

Interesting info
I have been using Lithium Polymer Batteries for years with my the remote control model airplanes and I like them.
They are very good.
Model airplane enthusiast also know there comes a danger with Li-Poly batteries.
I several cases the airplanes burst into flames while the batteries are been charged. Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.
The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air
It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.
I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.
There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.

Robert

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Heintz <bheintz@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group
>
>
>
>
> Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV -
> Netherlands
> Monday, January 23, 2012
>
>
> ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with
> Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed
> and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems
> in the most harsh environment.
> Energy storage
> With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost
> effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution
> to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which
> normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized
> power management.
> This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the
> special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical
> composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which
> guarantees long lifetime and little wear.
> Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with
> extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).
> The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible
> to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over
> 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.
> With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power
> battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been
> developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.
> The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead
> of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the
> already high reliability of the battery systems.
> Battery Management System
> To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies
> has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly
> active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market
> today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It
> can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even
> between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This
> is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to
> ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy
> storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the
> battery module itself.
> The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers
> like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for
> durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced
> amount of parts.
> Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is
> needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active
> balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an
> imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from
> the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are
> always 100% balanced.
> The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series,
> the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series
> in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and
> installation of the complete system including battery, total battery
> management and safety features.
> Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and
> is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and
> connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.
> Further Development
> ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a
> very important step forward. They have found positive improvements
> regarding the weight of the batteries.
> ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries
> with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is
> lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.
> Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:
> . Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections
> . Certified for high DC voltage systems
> . Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%
> . Configurable for Mega-Watt applications
> . Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size
> . Designed for large energy storage systems
> . Maintenance free
> . Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)
> . 10 years limited warranty
>

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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

ROBERT

* lithium cobalt formulations have never burst into flame because of contact with air

* the risks are:
- impact damage causing internal shorts - can cause fire
- over charging can cause fire
- over discharge - too high a rate can cause fire - but taking to a ultra low charge state wrecks the cells
- using cells which are too cold can result in massive overheating and fire
- USERS ignoring obvious signs of damage such as impact marks, puffing and overheating
- makers over specifying cells and users refusing to accept that this was the case

These are risks in ultra high discharge situations eg near maximum cell discharge rates

People who have fires in cell charging have either failed to use a balancing charger or ignored the signs of damage to cells

As presented the battery system in question should be very safe
* they have impact resistant cases
* good connections system
* full time battery management

The scaremongering over the dangers of lipo has been legendary and associated with misuse of cells, inappropriate cells and refusal of users to accept repsonsibility for their own actions.

Having used Lithium cobalt for the last 10 years in ultra high out put systems, my experience suggest used appropriately used Lithium cobalt is increasing stable safe and very very powerful.

Andrew Gilchrist

----- Original Message -----
From: rschwirz [mailto:rschwirz@sbcglobal.net]
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:09:03 -0000
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah

Interesting info
I have been using Lithium Polymer Batteries for years with my the remote control model airplanes and I like them.
They are very good.
Model airplane enthusiast also know there comes a danger with Li-Poly batteries.
I several cases the airplanes burst into flames while the batteries are been charged. Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.
The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air
It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.
I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.
There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.

Robert

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Bill Heintz <bheintz@...> wrote:
>
> Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group
>
>
>
>
> Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV -
> Netherlands
> Monday, January 23, 2012
>
>
> ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with
> Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed
> and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems
> in the most harsh environment.
> Energy storage
> With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost
> effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution
> to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which
> normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized
> power management.
> This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the
> special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical
> composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which
> guarantees long lifetime and little wear.
> Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with
> extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).
> The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible
> to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over
> 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.
> With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power
> battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been
> developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.
> The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead
> of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the
> already high reliability of the battery systems.
> Battery Management System
> To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies
> has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly
> active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market
> today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It
> can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even
> between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This
> is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to
> ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy
> storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the
> battery module itself.
> The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers
> like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for
> durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced
> amount of parts.
> Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is
> needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active
> balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an
> imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from
> the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are
> always 100% balanced.
> The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series,
> the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series
> in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and
> installation of the complete system including battery, total battery
> management and safety features.
> Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and
> is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and
> connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.
> Further Development
> ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a
> very important step forward. They have found positive improvements
> regarding the weight of the batteries.
> ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries
> with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is
> lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.
> Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:
> . Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections
> . Certified for high DC voltage systems
> . Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%
> . Configurable for Mega-Watt applications
> . Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size
> . Designed for large energy storage systems
> . Maintenance free
> . Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)
> . 10 years limited warranty
>