Wednesday, December 4, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

I don't understand where your coming up with 22 to 33.3 Amps (OK I think I do, but I also think you are doing it wrong).

 

It's all about the Watts. Watts is power, Watt/hrs are storage (simplified I know).

 

Look at it this way, you have 8ea 100 Watt panels, so a max total possible input of 800 Watts.

If you divide 800W by 48V, you get 16.66 Amps, and 800/72 = 11.11 Amps. But whatever Voltage your panels are putting out, the max Wattage is still 800.

So for me, I look at Watts needed for a given speed and then Watt/hrs left in my pack, to determine how far I can go.

 

Another thing to think about is power loss to conversion/heat. In your example using the theoretical max of your solar panels of 800W, your going to loose a little at the controller (The Victron 100/20/48V claims 98% conversion efficiency) so 800x0.98=784. So now your only getting 784W to the battery (assuming no voltage drop from the wires, and there are ALWAYS voltage drop from wires). There is also some loss at the battery itself.

 

I can tell you from experience that putting 100W into a battery for an hour does not net you a 100W/hr charge. I have Watt/hr meters at my batteries that count up from zero when using, and back down when charging. When fully charged the count will always be negative (until I zero them). As far as I can tell, my battery loss is around at least 0.5% (small but still relevant). So now you are down to about 780W.

 

If you add in the fact that you will also never see the full 100W / panel (unless you are in laboratory conditions) you should always factor in some loss before hand, then later measure when your system is operating.

 

You should also be careful when having 2 different batteries that you use independently. You would need to turn the discharged (used) battery off before turning on the charged (un-used) battery. If you connect two batteries with different voltages together, you will probably see some smoke, and need some new wires (unless you have the fuses and circuit breakers needed). This is just a guess of course, because I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, done such a thing (did I protest too much?).

 

And you would also need to separate the charging system from each battery.

 

I have my battery banks hooked up to bus bars and use them all at the same time. The solar and shore power chargers AND ALL loads are also connected to these bus bars. The solar charge converters are always on so when the sun is shining all the solar power is being used first. If the batteries are full and the load is small, the solar controllers limit the output to just enough to run the load. If the load increases then the controllers increases the output to match until the load becomes more than the solar is providing (or a cloud passes over) then the load starts drawing from the battery, but only for the excess load above what the controllers are providing.

Then if the load decreases back below the controllers output the excess power from the controllers charge the battery.

 

So in your case I would recommend using both batteries until 2/3 discharged, then fire up the generator and charge them back up (boating best practices: 1/3 on the way out, 1/3 for on the way back in and 1/3 in reserve for emergencies).

 

But as always, it's your boat, do it however makes you happy.

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Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

Yes, two strings of 4 panels is the way to go. Each to its own controller. 

I'm also using a MPPT controller to charge my 12V system from the 48V bank. In my case a 100/15 as I had it on hand. It occurs to me, one could use a 100/20 to charge to 48V system from the 12V system if the need arises.  Although I've not tried that yet.

On Thu, 5 Dec 2024, 07:19 kurtphone via groups.io, <kurtphone=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have 8 x 100 watt flex panels charging my 48 volt battery bank with 2 x Victron 100/20 48 volt MPPT solar controllers. I think you will be much better off with 4 panels in series to each controller and then parallel the controllers. 
I run the solar banks port and starboard so most shading degradation only affects one or the other solar bank at a time. A shadow on all or part of any panel drops the output of the whole series string. 

Slightly off topic…I am using a left over 12 volt smart solar controller as a DC-DC converter for charging my house bank from the traction bank. Charge parameters can be monitored and controlled with the Victron IPhone app. This works really nicely. 

Remember….no welding!

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Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

I have 8 x 100 watt flex panels charging my 48 volt battery bank with 2 x Victron 100/20 48 volt MPPT solar controllers. I think you will be much better off with 4 panels in series to each controller and then parallel the controllers. 
I run the solar banks port and starboard so most shading degradation only affects one or the other solar bank at a time. A shadow on all or part of any panel drops the output of the whole series string. 

Slightly off topic…I am using a left over 12 volt smart solar controller as a DC-DC converter for charging my house bank from the traction bank. Charge parameters can be monitored and controlled with the Victron IPhone app. This works really nicely. 

Remember….no welding!
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Tuesday, December 3, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

Thanks for the response. You noted that I had two strings of four panels, which I do, but they would be pairs in series & parallel with each   :-|____|+........ -|___|+: other 
                                                                                 :-|____|+........ -|___|+:
                                                                                 :-|____|+.........-|___|+:
                                                                                 :-|____|+.........-|___|+:
                                                                                 : ..........batteries....... :
Each panel of 100 watts, configured together, going from 12-18 volts depending on the sun, producing 48 to 72 volts and 22 to 33.3 amps, being controlled by your Victron MPT 150 volt / 35 amp, seems like it would be what I need to charge one four battery bank of batteries that are configured to provide 48 volts to the Electric Yacht 2.0 single or tandem drive motors. Using bank #1 of 185amps THEORETICALLY using 40% of that power (74 amps) would drive my boat @3.5knots for about two hours and almost an hour longer if the 22.22 additional amps are added in each hour(assuming the voltage is @18 volts/panel), then switch over to the fully charged bank#2 with the same treatment for another two to three hours. Again, ALL THEORETICAL. Every few hours, I can run the 48 volt gen.set to fully charge the first bank again. The 10k gen.set can put out 208 amps @ 48 volts which can run the Electric Yacht 2.0 to travel @ 6.1knots through the battery banks or directly. With both gen sets online, the hull speed of 7.1 knots, requiring 330 amps, 48 volts, 15,840 watts is THEORETICALLY do-able. THAT though, is why the boat is a hybrid. I like the quiet of a sailboat in motion that the electric motors provide, however, at the same time the gen sets, at only 60 decibels are not nearly as noisy as a big engine chuggin' along. These are clean and quiet and with two, redundant. 
 I've had the gen sets on another boat that had 4 thru the hull pod motors. It was a 38' boat. that boat had no solar panels but it had 24 batteries in three separate banks. It was a prototype and out of Cambridge, Md., we did a shakedown cruise of about 25 miles @6.3 knots on one battery bank of 8 185 amp/hr. batteries. At 70%, one of the gen sets was supposed to come on, but it didn't. When we got back the bank was down to almost 60%. We started a gen set and in about two hours the bank was fully charged. The generator had used only two liters of fuel! If you extrapolate the distance traveled and the weight of a 38 foot cyprus built wooden boat, that is an efficiency that started me down this path. The same trip with a diesel would have consumed several GALLONS of fuel. Both gen sets are still new....except one of them has two hours on it. This project is the whole enchilada. Wind turbine forward, solar panels on the cabin and cockpit roof. My plan is to do it right but try to get it done before I die....which I'm trying to avoid for a while. I apologize going far afield here but it has become a bit of a passion that I recognize I can't do it all nor know it all. That's why I appreciate the knowledge and input of you guys. Having a Nigel Calder for a neighbor might have helped too!
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Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

"Both Genasun and Renogy make MPPT controllers that step up for 48V batteries.  Genasun being much the preferred brand."
 
Thanks Paul, very good info there.
I had never heard of Genasun.
Those Genasun Boost converters look very good, claim to be 99% efficient, and long as you buy the correct one for your set-up, you don't have to set anything.
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Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

I have no skin in this game at the moment, but I sure appreciate this
type of explanation.



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Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues

"  I don't know of any SOLAR battery charger/converters that will step up AND down. They might be out there somewhere, but I don't know of any, I have only ever seen solar step-down charger/converters. Now if you were charging a higher Voltage battery with a lower voltage battery, you could use a DC to D/C step-up converter, but those only go up, not up and down."

Both Genasun and Renogy make MPPT controllers that step up for 48V batteries.  Genasun being much the preferred brand.

On Wed, 4 Dec 2024, 07:49 gsxbearman via groups.io, <gsxbearman=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

"…..or am I way off? 100watts/12volts =8.33 amps x 4 =33.3 .......100watts/18volts= 5.5amps x 4= 22.2amps……"

 

You are way off.

 

You "add voltage in series" and "add amps in parallel".

 

So your 4x100watt 12 to18V panels get you 48 to 72 Volts at 5.5 to 8.33 Amps. Then times 2 (for your two strings in parallel) gives your solar array a max output of 72 Volts at 16.66 amps with a minimum of 0 Volts and 0 amps (like at night). 16.66 Amps is the max even though it would only be 16.66 at 48 Volts, it is still the max Amps. And the only reason to know the max amps is to size the wire from the panels to the controller.

So whatever controller you use needs to be able to handle this max Voltage output as the controllers input. So you could probably get by with a 100 Volt controller as your panel array is set up now.

 

On Solar controllers the listed Voltage is the max input but the Amps listed are the max output. Your Max output Amps is determined by max Watts of combined solar panel output divided by battery pack voltage. In your case 800W/48v=16.66A (a battery depleted all the way down to 40V would get you 20A). So a 20A output controller would work for you.

So it would seem that you need a 100v 20A solar controller. You must now make sure that the one you use has capability to output for 48V batteries (I have one 100V30A controller that will only charge 12V or 24V batteries, but its OK cause I have several 12V and a couple 24V battery packs).

It just so happens that Victron makes a 100V/20A@48V controller. I have a Victron 150V/35A@48V. I also have a BougeRV 150/40@48V and I am very happy with all my controllers, none of them have failed me yet.

 

Just realize that all the rated Watts, Volts, and Amps of any solar panels are THEORITICAL maximums. If you were to see an actual 100 Watts from a 100 Watt panel, you might be the first. I have some 440's that I have never seen more than around 375 Watts. And if the voltage drops on your panel, the amps will usually drop also because its from a lack of sun. So you will never see 8.33 Amps at12V or the full 5.5 Amps at 18V, but that's what you use to size the controller.

 

If the voltage from your solar panels drop below the minimum needed to charge it will simply stop charging.

A good solar controller will regulate the output voltage to whatever is best to charge the batteries connected to it, this is why usually you have to hook up the batteries to the controller first, so it can sense the voltage of the batteries it is trying to charge, but you will have to set the chemistry type and maybe the settings for your particular battery pack.

Any controller will use some of the voltage and/or amps from the solar panels for operation, so there will be some voltage drop across the controller. This is normal and at least one reason that actual voltage input needs to be more than planned voltage output. This is known as a voltage step-down converter. I don't know of any SOLAR battery charger/converters that will step up AND down. They might be out there somewhere, but I don't know of any, I have only ever seen solar step-down charger/converters. Now if you were charging a higher Voltage battery with a lower voltage battery, you could use a DC to D/C step-up converter, but those only go up, not up and down.

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