Tuesday, May 3, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

Sounds complicated J.

I have some experience with these type (and size) of LiFePO4 batteries.

At first, the experience was not good: We had about 30 of these, new-in-box, which we took off the shelf to find them all dead, not taking a charge.  These were high quality NEC batteries (~$120ea as I recall).  It turns out that the internal BMS operates constantly, even before you ever use the battery, and within months it can bring the voltage down to the point that the BMS will not allow the battery to be charged again---i.e. it's bricked.  I spoke with the Mfr and told them that even the lowest cost "batteries included" items typically have a small plastic tab that needs to be removed before the battery cells can be drained and with such a high internal BMS usage coupled with shipping batteries at 50% capacity the risk of bricking these in the box was high.

 

Anyway, if this does happen to you, you can "kick start" the battery cells and get the batteries to work again, but that's another story.

 

Main Point: These batteries (the NEC ones anyway) do have internal bypassing such that you can even leave up to 16v on them indefinitely and they will internally bypass current and keep the cells topped off at their max.  So this should allow a lot of flexibility for charging them.

 

-MT

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of HF via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2022 9:25 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

 

Hello, Skray,
Here's an idea.  I'm not sure it's a good one, so hopefully others here will chime in about its risks and flaws.
I've bought several 12 V 6 Ah LiFePO4 batteries on Amazon when they come up for $18-$20 each, delivery included.  I've tested them for capacity.  They've always been at least 90% of the claim.  For 36V 100 Ah, you'd need an array of 51 of these, which should set you back about $1k.  You could charge them simultaneously using fully isolated power supplies for each set of 17 in parallel.   There would be a lot of wiring.  To make the pack more compact, you could bust open the cases to access each set of 4 cells strapped to their management board individually.  But take care to remount them with enough space and materials between them to prevent fire propagation if one of them spontaneously shorts itself.
I haven't done this yet, but I intend to so something like this for my 3 hp outboard motor conversion project.
Cheers,
Halden

Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

Hello, Skray,
Here's an idea.  I'm not sure it's a good one, so hopefully others here will chime in about its risks and flaws.
I've bought several 12 V 6 Ah LiFePO4 batteries on Amazon when they come up for $18-$20 each, delivery included.  I've tested them for capacity.  They've always been at least 90% of the claim.  For 36V 100 Ah, you'd need an array of 51 of these, which should set you back about $1k.  You could charge them simultaneously using fully isolated power supplies for each set of 17 in parallel.   There would be a lot of wiring.  To make the pack more compact, you could bust open the cases to access each set of 4 cells strapped to their management board individually.  But take care to remount them with enough space and materials between them to prevent fire propagation if one of them spontaneously shorts itself.
I haven't done this yet, but I intend to so something like this for my 3 hp outboard motor conversion project.
Cheers,
Halden
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Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

Will Prowse on YouTube has been reviewing inexpensive ($300-$800 each) packaged 12v LiFePO4 batteries for the last two years. His reviews might be able to help you narrow things down a bit. I went through the same process a short while ago and came to the conclusion that building my own batteries up from cells and a BMS, while satisfying a need to do it my own way, was not the best solution. If you build your own, you have to obtain decent cells, which is not as easy as it sounds, obtain a reliable BMS, obtain or build a suitable waterproof case, test the cells, top and bottom balance cells, etc. Cells alone will cost north of $1200. Once fully assembled, you still have no warranty, no tech assistance. I really wanted to build my own battery bank, but chickened out. Maybe you’re made of sterner stuff. Good luck.
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Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

B. Build your own. Good brands include: Winston, CALB, Sinopoly. Chargery & Daly make economical BMSs. 


I built my 48v/16s/1,000AH LFP pack years ago. Still going strong. 

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Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

Have you thought about something like this?  It's a turnkey, drop in solution: 36V GATR Max Kit - LiFePO4 - 120Ah - 5kWh - BigBattery.com

I'm working on converting my Duffy Electric Boat from GC2 FLA batteries to LifePO4 batteries, and I've learned that connecting 12V LifePO4 batteries in series is probably not the best arrangement.  

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing.

Rob
 
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Monday, May 2, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

No, 36 volt 100 amp hour.

Option A:
Purchase three 12 volt group 27 type Lifepo4 batteries from Amazon or ?  

Option B: 
Build a 36 volt system from loose cells… but again, a reputable source?

I have no idea what is junk and what isn’t. I was hoping for some reliable info on how to narrow down the choices or a recommendation for a reputable company to purchase from. 


 

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Re: [electricboats] Thoughts on 12 volt Lifepo4 batteries

Are you saying you plan to buy 12 LiFePo4 batteries?  That's about $10,000 for 14.4kWhr (3P4S for 48V or 4P3S for 36V).   I built a 13.4kWhr battery from prismatic cells last year.  I spent about $2,500 including BMS plus the time to build.  I would probably have gone with a new diesel if I had not been able to do the battery at this price point.  The cost for the commercially available LiFePo4 batteries would have put my project over-budget. 

I have some details on my battery here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_battery.htm



Dan Pfeiffer


On 2022-04-29 3:28 pm, Skray775 wrote:

Hello, 

I have a 20 foot bass boat that is mainly used on lakes that restrict the use of my 150hp gas motor.  

The electric motor is a 36 volt trolling motor. I would like to have mor reserve run time than my current setup and was looking the 12 volt LifEPo4 batteries that are sized as replacements for AGM or Flood Acid type deep cycles.  Most are 100 amp hour and that should be fine.

Does the group have any suggestions as to a good battery brand and/or would it be better to build a separate set of cells instead of purchasing 12 prebuilt ones?

My current batteries are Optima group27 blue top. Replacement are in the $330 range and from my research they are now manufactured in a different location and will not last 6 or 7 years like my current ones have.

I am familiar with Lifepo4 as I have constructed 12s2p 2400mah packs for some R/C helicopters. Torn out of old Dewalt packs, A123 cells.  I know they are smaller but the concept seems similar.

Thank you for the help