Saturday, November 7, 2015

[Electric Boats] Re: Any vendors planning on attending

 

Hi James and group,
We've done the first 2 of these shows in Amsterdam, and yes Torqeedo will be there with our Deep Blue Hybrid System at the Fort Lauderdale location.  To set your expectations about 75% or more of the presentations and products on display are targeted toward the large shipping and commercial ferry market.  We will likely be one of the few in the sub 130kW range.
Hope to see you and others there!
Best,
Capt. Todd Sims, Global Sales for Torqeedo Deep Blue Hybrid

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Friday, November 6, 2015

[Electric Boats] Any vendors planning on attending

 

Any vendors planning on exhibiting the Florida electric hybrid expo:
http://www.electricandhybridmarineworldexpoflorida.com

I am trying to figure out if it will be worth the trip to attend this conference, so far looks like a lot of industrial exhibitors that would be of limited interest to me, but might be worth a the trip if a few recreational vendors will be there.

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[Electric Boats] Re: electric cats [15 Attachments]

 
[Attachment(s) from albert682@yahoo.com [electricboats] included below]

mek71186 your solution will rely on a hybrid of course and entail as many charging sources as possible to complete your solar cat.  Your going to spend an obscene amount of money. You might consider using electricity and gasoline for power sources.

To extrapolate some on what the above means translates into spending money.  So order online your 440HVA charge controller.  It doesn't have to be complicated and in fact you want simple.   

Next call the lithium god and magically he will bestow on you the perfect bank for your needs for there can be no other and you will be bonded to that bank through financial matrimony for life.

Next find that it is 2015 and a modest array of thin film flexible solar panels will surely power your lithium based solar catamaran for a decade easily and simply.  Remember don't fall for any marketing keep it simple and import if you have to.  Thin film solar 180watts can be had for 1.10 per watt.

You should count on making over 20amps continuous from your solar array. It must be adjustable at a minimum for effective solar catamaran.  Laying panels flat is questionable practice that mostly can be motivated by excessive lithium battery capacity as in they have so much power they don't really care and or they have sized the solar array to be obscene in the amount of energy produced so as to offset house and propulsion loads based on their azimuth to the sun.

At this point lets not fool ourselves.  Your upfront catamaran costs eventually play a role in the outfitting for most people.  Everything is a cost and now that you have the ability to generate instantaneous power indefinitely there can be no expense spared. 

Go 48volt.  Everyone else really is missing the point of electric inboard/outboards and electric catamarans.  Again keeping that 48v nominal has much to do with the simple availability of commodity hardware that just works reliably for years and years. 

People and companies keep trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to electric propulsion and each to their own depending on the selection of catamaran you have started with. 

Hull speed for whatever length of catamaran you purchase is all your propulsion system needs to achieve with a modest buffer.  Thinking outside that box only leads to unrelenting complexity and excessive costs.  Especially from your simple consumer cruiser catamaran outlook.

For this simple example we rule out any type of battery that is not lithium and any type of charging source that denotes float, balance, equalize or other gimmicky names.  Now consider for the example thusly:

120 or so small calb 72 amp hour cells.  They pack the most energy density available into a small format and would roughly fill up the back of a small truck.  Without getting into the numbers you have to further evaluate how you as the consumer will maintain this bank of batteries.  Truth be told you will not be able to. 

Lets define maintaining.  Observation occasionally via voltage tester - individual cell readings important.  If you don't have this ability don't buy the batteries.  Electronically monitoring more than sixteen cells will also become problematic.  The less electrical connections in a marine environment the better.

Now set your dump load cutoff on your 440HVA to 57volts and your high voltage contactor cutoff on your bank to 58volts and your charging solution for your lithium batteries is starting to take shape via simple flowchart.  Feed your solar input in one string of 30amps into your charge controller.  Disregard the wind generator and grab a couple of great 3000 watt smart 48v DC generators from ebay. 

They start charging automatically at 46.5volts and stop charging at 56.5 volts.  At idle they produce 12amps each and sip the fuel.  If they start in automatic mode so when they sense the bank is 46.5 volts they produce power equivalent to the load and each unit can produce over 40amps so two of them in parallel will power over 80amps continuous. Once they reach 56.5v they stop.

Install these generators in parallel into the generator input on your 440HVA.

Now lets see what you have in terms of charging potential on your large prismatic lithium batteries.  Solar amps charging at 25 amps for most of the day and the ability to automatically maintain your charge state with the generators at idle 25 amps.  KISS if your doing close to hull speed in the 25-50amp range you have a winner.

Pick a nice shore power charger - nothing fancy but you want to go with the traditional Elcon 3000 if you have the chance.  Remember you have kept things simple and so long as it is producing amps at the 48v nominal voltage your charging, so don't be too picky.  A couple old 48v ferro resonant chargers can still produce 40amps.  Just remember your large format lithium battery pack is near 100% efficient at converting charging solar or otherwise into stored energy.

Bottom line here is your watching the voltage of the bank on the bridge.  You know your bms will spike the entire system at 58volts to protect itself via contactor separation.  You know your charge controller will never let this happen as it disconnects the charging sources at 57volts.  You know your smart generators are not wind generators so they don't even need a diversion load and you further understand they stop charging at 56.5 volts automatically.  You also understand that solar charging in excess of 57 volts is pointless as the charge controller simply disconnects the solar input.

Further to that you can't miss big digital blue voltage meters showing you the bank voltage as your charging.  A simple EV Display gives you a touch of simplicity for overall bank performance and state of charge fuel tank capacity all from your tablet device Captain.

Cost wise Captain I'm sure no one can measure that but there are pictures of electric boat owners out there that typify just how good something similar in design makes one feel.  For example http://deny.org/Escape_the_American_Dream/Project_Pictures/Pages/Work_In_Progress.html#38 whereupon the owner really should have a caption that reads "What me worry!".

So you will find some attached photos of my botched electrical bread boarding of my 48v system on my catamaran.  Even with wrong colored wires though (will be corrected to ABYC upon final install) the system was amazing to watch.

Over the course of a week I was able to test 12 180 flexible solar panels and charge at 24amps.  I was able to parallel two smart dc generators and charge at idle 25 amps.  I was able to charge at 20 amps each a couple old lestronic II 48vdc chargers simultaneously.  I was able to wire in a smart EV Display and have state of charge meters sent to torque pro over android.

I was also able to run a couple of cycles from the incinolet so 40amps for two hours through the cotex 48v 3000w inverters.

Soon for me I hope to have a picture like above as I transition to physical rigging of 8M Bobcat catamaran.  Your catamaran choice will of course be different but I certainly wouldn't be going with a high voltage i.e.: greater than 48v nominal for a cruising catamaran.  Unless of course your going to be outfitting an electrically propelled gunboat or have the hulls for a fast cat.

I have already outfitted the tender cat with a 48v solution and the results for me at least were obvious.  Put two electric outboard together and power the big cat.  ioio



My list of things to purchase yet is getting smaller.  A couple of Dehumidifiers and some plumbing accessories.  But enjoy your build and do it your way within the confines of your budget and interpersonal relationships.


---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <mek71186@...> wrote :

I'm thinking of trying to purchase a 38 ft. - 45 ft. cruising catamaran and convert it to all electric (or hybrid if necessary)  and am looking for suggestions or concerns.  I am particularly interested in expected conversion costs and the types of power sources one might use. 


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RE: [Electric Boats] new member

 

Thanks Simon, and welcome to the forum J.

 

With nom. 214Ah lead acid at 48v, you're looking at around 10kwh 100% discharge.  Practically, you're looking at 60-70% of that, or 6-7kwh/charge.

I'd guess that your burn rate vs speed would be something like this (probably very wrong):

 

Speed   Watts    MaxTime & Range (@7kwhmax)

3kt          500         14 hrs, 42n-mi

4              900         7.8hrs, 31n-mi

5              1.8k        3.9hrs, 20n-mi

6              3.6k        2hrs, 12n-mi

7              7.2k        55min, < 7n-mi

8              15k         25min, 3.5n-mi

 

Your mileage may vary…

Speed kills range---up there in the Gulf Islands, you already know this, but you'd better be sure to time your tides J!

 

Look me up if you get down to Portland-

 

-Myles

 

P.S. – I'm running with 21kwh of lithium for my pack these days---will be 35kwh when I'm done.

Sam McKinney's Scow Barge Cruiser "The Reach Of Tide": www.evalbum.com/492

His book: http://osupress.oregonstate.edu/book/reach-of-tide-ring-of-history

 

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 7:25 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Electric Boats] new member

 

 

Thank you Myles for inviting me to join the group.

About 10 years ago I started to build a 35' steel sailboat, a Wylo II of 14,000 lbs. displacement.

I looked forward to buying and installing a sturdy diesel. Five years ago I bought a 3 cyl. 23 hp. Izuzu, lifted it in , installed the shaft and lined it up.. When it came time to hook up fuel filters, water separators, a lift pump, hot wet exhaust, etc. etc., I wanted to make it perfect, but  knew I probably couldn't and so I left the installation and went on to other things.

Then I discovered electric propulsion  and went out and bought a Thoosa 9,000 and installed it and a bank of 4 Odyssey PC 1800 FT, 214Ah batteries.

I just launched the boat last month and only have experience of motoring around the marina.

I am impressed and so are many other people. The big question for most people is "But how far can you motor?".. I admit, it's a bit of a question for me too.

The boat's name is Saltarelle and I'll open an album and post some photos.

Very much  looking forward to sharing experiences.

Simon  Gabbott on Gabriola Island, west coast of Canada

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Re: [Electric Boats] Practical Sailor - Electric Propulsion

 

Mike is right about getting Practical Sailor on board.


I just emailed them my request and encourage others to do the same:   practicalsailor@belvoir.com

We spent the last 2 years investing in a completely new product line and look forward to independent testing!    

James   





Hi,

Just wondering if you are ready to look at Electric Propulsion for an upcoming article.

Please look over our new offering of products.    This is 10 years in the making.   We have looked at every way to build an electric drive and have enhanced efficiency and safety of systems making electric propulsion a viable alternative to diesel.

Testing of the various power plants could be achieved by a dyno quite easily.    Just get a dyno, and plug each one of our units into it and rate for temperature and continuous output, and efficiency.

This would be a great, worthwhile project for the marine industry in general and would help to kickstart the boat builders into a technology that customers are asking for.    If boat builders would adopt the technology, it would become less expensive and more available.

Life aboard is vastly better, all at the same time as being environmentally friendly.

It is inevitable that this technology will become mainstream in the near future.    You simply can't beat electric propulsion for user friendliness, control over the vessel, quiet and calm on board a sailboat and numerous other benefits all outlined on our website.

Please take a good look!    The time has come to bring this technology to the forefront and make electric boats the choice of both new and converted propulsion systems.

thanks for your consideration!

James












James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com



James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com

On Nov 4, 2015, at 10:43 AM, mike@electricyachtssocal.com [electricboats] wrote:

 

I sent the following email to Practical Sailor.  If you know the publication, you know that they do not do any advertisement and function as an independent reviewer of products in the marine industry.  I think it would be helpful for the sailing community to understand what we as individual sailors are doing.

"would you consider doing an article on electric propulsion for displacement keel boats.  In the US, I suspect over 10% of all "new" motors being installed to replace dead or dying gas or diesel engines in sailboats from 27 to 40ft are  electric.  I estimate that number at over 300 motors this year and growing.  This is from my anecdotal questioning of companies selling inboard electrical propulsion and the limited information available from the few diesel manufacturers.
The electrical marine propulsion companies in the US are in alphabetical order: Annapolis Hybrid Marine (Thoosa), Elco, Electoprop, Electric Yacht, GreenStar (new to the US), MasterVolt, and Torqeedo... also DIY kits being offered these include Thunderstruck, and Electric Motor Sport. Finally there are those who just build their own."
If you would also like to reach out to Practical Sailor, you can contact them at practicalsailor@belvoir.com
Mike Electric Yachts of Southern California/Pacific


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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: electric cats

 

Does anyone have a formula for calculating power consumed by a catamaran of a certain waterline length and displacement?


Can anyone provide some data on Electric Catamarans power consumption at speed?  






James Lambden
The Electric Propeller Company
625C East Haley Street,
Santa Barbara, CA
93103

805 455 8444

james@electroprop.com

www.electroprop.com

On Nov 6, 2015, at 7:32 AM, 'Sdolan' sdolan@scannersllc.com [electricboats] wrote:

 

I'll mention a few other things.

My AGM pack of 12 batteries weighed in at a bit over 1800 pounds. The LiPo's will reduce that to 520lbs.

I have burned roughly 80 gallons of Dino fuel over the last 6 years. I worry more about the fuel going bad than burning it.

Since a generator is pretty much standard on a larger boat, using it to power the motors for extended runs is not a problem. As a cruising sailboat it's pretty electrical dependent to operate a lot of things on board (my wife expects it) so having the ability to multi task the thing is good. A number of guys here with smaller boats have portable ones for this reason so I would plan on it.

Unless Mike or others know I don't believe there is anything solar that will make the charging of larger banks possible, upcharging to 72V or larger systems, without a large array in series.  Then I don't believe there is a controller out there to handle it. I don't want to make my Cat look like a science project so will wait until they figure out how to make solar sails. 8o)

 

Steve in Solomons MD

 

We have seen a growing interest in cruising catamaran conversions and they are well suited for electric.  Of the size you are looking at, you would reduce the normally three diesel (two motors and a genset) to one diesel and two electric motors.  The cost to repower is high because there are two motors but the return to the boat owner is just as high.  It takes about twice the power to push a catamaran due to the fact it has significant wetted with two hulls.  Often catamarans were overpowered to allow one diesel to drive the boat at the theoretical hull speed.  This could be less of an issue but still a good practice.  Weight is a big issue with catamarans and you want to keep weight down so we normally see a modest battery pack and the use of a genset to handle greater power storage needs in addition to house needs.  Finally the catamaran allows a build out of a larger solar array and can just about triple the effective placement of solar than a monohull without making the boat look like a solar farm.

 

Good luck with the search.

Mike  Electric Yachts of Southern California/Pacific






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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: electric cats

 

I'll mention a few other things.

My AGM pack of 12 batteries weighed in at a bit over 1800 pounds. The LiPo's will reduce that to 520lbs.

I have burned roughly 80 gallons of Dino fuel over the last 6 years. I worry more about the fuel going bad than burning it.

Since a generator is pretty much standard on a larger boat, using it to power the motors for extended runs is not a problem. As a cruising sailboat it's pretty electrical dependent to operate a lot of things on board (my wife expects it) so having the ability to multi task the thing is good. A number of guys here with smaller boats have portable ones for this reason so I would plan on it.

Unless Mike or others know I don't believe there is anything solar that will make the charging of larger banks possible, upcharging to 72V or larger systems, without a large array in series.  Then I don't believe there is a controller out there to handle it. I don't want to make my Cat look like a science project so will wait until they figure out how to make solar sails. 8o)

 

Steve in Solomons MD

 

We have seen a growing interest in cruising catamaran conversions and they are well suited for electric.  Of the size you are looking at, you would reduce the normally three diesel (two motors and a genset) to one diesel and two electric motors.  The cost to repower is high because there are two motors but the return to the boat owner is just as high.  It takes about twice the power to push a catamaran due to the fact it has significant wetted with two hulls.  Often catamarans were overpowered to allow one diesel to drive the boat at the theoretical hull speed.  This could be less of an issue but still a good practice.  Weight is a big issue with catamarans and you want to keep weight down so we normally see a modest battery pack and the use of a genset to handle greater power storage needs in addition to house needs.  Finally the catamaran allows a build out of a larger solar array and can just about triple the effective placement of solar than a monohull without making the boat look like a solar farm.

 

Good luck with the search.

Mike  Electric Yachts of Southern California/Pacific




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