Saturday, October 1, 2011

Re: [Electric Boats] New guy with a touring/camper mod.

 

Given the 96 square feet of canopy, you could fit 16 of the solar panels suggested by James. They would have a rated capacity of 1.4kW, weigh 480 pounds without mounts (and all that weight will be up high) and cost just a litle over $3000 (without tax and shipping).

An array like the one on the Loon (0.75kW) mentioned by James may be more reasonable. But they are operating the Loon as a plug in hybrid "Their eight-seat pontoon boat called The Loon is solar-electric. On overcast days, eight 6-volt batteries kept them clipping along all day at 5 knots (6 mph). At night, The Loon was plugged into standard electrical outlets at local marinas to recharge its batteries." That means that they're getting no more than 20-25% of their energy from solar in regular usage.

Actually that sound like a reasonable expectation for this type of boat. The real deciding factor will be how much power that you actually use when under way and your desired speeds and range.

Eric

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, James Sizemore <james@...> wrote:
>
> Depending on your speed and the efficiency and configuration of the solar panels you use I think you will be pleasantly surprised on how much cursing you can get done on just the solar cells. What is the square foot or dimensions of the roof space you are planning on using for solar panels?
>
> Some similar successful projects:
> Watch the movie the solar shuttles are quite impressive boats: http://www.solarshuttle.org/
>
> But in the land of affordable, the Loon pontoon did a multi day trip on solar with a boat very similar to yours: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/the_loon_solar-.php
>
> Some inexpensive but still highly efficient panels you might want to look into:
> http://www.sunelec.com/sun-solar-panel-90-watts-1750-vmp-p-1701.html
>
> Have fun and do keep us posted.
>
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2011, at 8:39 PM, lochadio wrote:
>
> > Hello
> >
> > I'm Mark, the new guy from up in North Scituate, Rhode Island.
> >
> > To quickly cover the personal background stuff:
> > I studied Fine Art in college, (sculpture and photography). I never made a dime off it but it's managed to stay a big part of my life.
> > I've been a carpenter for close to 40 years, doing mostly finish work now.
> > I have some experience in electronics at the component level. I'm okay with "point-to-points" but I'd be in trouble if I had to read a schematic.
> > Divorced, no kids, 1 dog and like everybody else in the construction trades ...unemployed.
> >
> > I'd been thinking about building a houseboat for a few years now, one that would run without fossil fuels and be essentially "off-the-grid".
> > I hope to spend time touring the inland waterways in the US someday.
> > I wanted to start on a prototype and did some drawings but I didn't have the space to start fabricating hulls.
> >
> > The original idea is here:
> >
> > http://solarboat.blogspot.com/
> >
> > There's a link to some drawings at the top of the right hand column, you should skip the text unless you've got insomnia issues.
> >
> > I grew up around boats, both power and sail, but this being "The Ocean State" I never had any experience with pontoon barges as they really aren't well suited for salt water.
> > I got a close look at one for the first time a year ago and it got the wheels turning.
> >
> > I found a 20 foot 1989 Manitou Fish Hawk on Craigslist. The motor was blown and the furniture was toast but the pontoons and the trailer were in great shape and the price was right. I stripped it down to the trusses, replaced the deck with mahogany, added an 8' x 12' canopy for a PV array and wells large enough to hold 8 deep cycle RV/marine batteries. The plan is to turn it into a touring boat and a camper. There will be roll-down canvas panels around the canopy and the benches will turn into bunks.
> >
> > I haven't figured out how to transfer the files from my Flickr account to here yet, so for now...
> > These are some shots of the early construction stages:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627783354944/
> >
> > This is it with some of the wiring installed:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627790086652/
> >
> > The construction is going well over all There's only a couple of days work left before I can get it wet.
> > I did put in the water once to check the buoyancy and balance but I haven't run it under power yet.
> >
> > I need to get started on the charging systems now. With 96 square feet of canopy, I've got room for a fair size PV array. but I don't see it providing enough power. I had planned on adding vertical axis wind turbines, but all the designs I came up with ate up too much deck space.
> > I may try and put them on outriggers if I can find a way to keep them from getting wrecked dock-side or crushed going thru locks.
> >
> > I've been looking into getting some power regeneration from the motors. Technically all I'd need to do would be to anchor in a strong current but I'd need a different set of props to get any real power generation and swapping out the props every night and then back in the morning sounds like a chore.
> >
> > Feel free to hit me up with questions, suggestions or pointers. I've got a LOT of free time these days.
> >
> > Looking forward to hearing from you.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
>

__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

Re: [Electric Boats] New guy with a touring/camper mod.

 

Depending on your speed and the efficiency and configuration of the solar panels you use I think you will be pleasantly surprised on how much cursing you can get done on just the solar cells.  What is the square foot or dimensions of the roof space you are planning on using for solar panels? 

Some similar successful projects: 
Watch the movie the solar shuttles are quite impressive boats:  http://www.solarshuttle.org/  

But in the land of affordable, the Loon pontoon did a multi day trip on solar with a boat very similar to yours:  http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/12/the_loon_solar-.php

Some inexpensive but still highly efficient panels you might want to look into:

Have fun and do keep us posted. 



On Sep 30, 2011, at 8:39 PM, lochadio wrote:

 

Hello

I'm Mark, the new guy from up in North Scituate, Rhode Island.

To quickly cover the personal background stuff:
I studied Fine Art in college, (sculpture and photography). I never made a dime off it but it's managed to stay a big part of my life.
I've been a carpenter for close to 40 years, doing mostly finish work now.
I have some experience in electronics at the component level. I'm okay with "point-to-points" but I'd be in trouble if I had to read a schematic.
Divorced, no kids, 1 dog and like everybody else in the construction trades ...unemployed.

I'd been thinking about building a houseboat for a few years now, one that would run without fossil fuels and be essentially "off-the-grid".
I hope to spend time touring the inland waterways in the US someday.
I wanted to start on a prototype and did some drawings but I didn't have the space to start fabricating hulls.

The original idea is here:

http://solarboat.blogspot.com/

There's a link to some drawings at the top of the right hand column, you should skip the text unless you've got insomnia issues.

I grew up around boats, both power and sail, but this being "The Ocean State" I never had any experience with pontoon barges as they really aren't well suited for salt water.
I got a close look at one for the first time a year ago and it got the wheels turning.

I found a 20 foot 1989 Manitou Fish Hawk on Craigslist. The motor was blown and the furniture was toast but the pontoons and the trailer were in great shape and the price was right. I stripped it down to the trusses, replaced the deck with mahogany, added an 8' x 12' canopy for a PV array and wells large enough to hold 8 deep cycle RV/marine batteries. The plan is to turn it into a touring boat and a camper. There will be roll-down canvas panels around the canopy and the benches will turn into bunks.

I haven't figured out how to transfer the files from my Flickr account to here yet, so for now...
These are some shots of the early construction stages:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627783354944/

This is it with some of the wiring installed:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627790086652/

The construction is going well over all There's only a couple of days work left before I can get it wet.
I did put in the water once to check the buoyancy and balance but I haven't run it under power yet.

I need to get started on the charging systems now. With 96 square feet of canopy, I've got room for a fair size PV array. but I don't see it providing enough power. I had planned on adding vertical axis wind turbines, but all the designs I came up with ate up too much deck space.
I may try and put them on outriggers if I can find a way to keep them from getting wrecked dock-side or crushed going thru locks.

I've been looking into getting some power regeneration from the motors. Technically all I'd need to do would be to anchor in a strong current but I'd need a different set of props to get any real power generation and swapping out the props every night and then back in the morning sounds like a chore.

Feel free to hit me up with questions, suggestions or pointers. I've got a LOT of free time these days.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Mark


__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 

Hi Jeremy,

When you're dealing with displacement auxiliary sailboats, even the good propellers run at slip rates above 35%. If you look at the propeller calculators from most of the propeller manufacturers, the typical figures for displacement sailboats are around 50-55% slip. Here's the figures that came from my boat, before and after:
"Doing the calcs, the old prop showed 39% slip at 3kts and 58% slip at 5.5kts. The new prop calcs to 27% slip at 3kts and 37% slip at 6kts. Better, but not 6 times better."

I know that for lightweight canal shells like yours, the numbers are radically different, but I'm a little fuzzy about what kind of regen scenarios that you would get while using your boat.

Variable pitch will make a more effective hydro-generator as proven by "the amazingly expensive french hydrogenerators (more than $7000 US each) that have been discussed on this board more than once this year."
http://www.velux5oceans.com/#/ocean-sprint-4-news/brad-hydro-power-sustainability/1902
The variable pitch props are computer controlled to maximize the charge while minimizing drag. I get the impression that they have an algorithym that optimizes the tradeoff for different speeds. They have the advantage of sailig at much higher speeds than most of our boats and they are only looking to supply house loads.

I agree that larger diameter props are more efficient in both directions (propulsion and regen), but we're all limited in the size of prop that we can pratically fit under our boats.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jeremy_harris_uk@...> wrote:
>
>
> Its the prop.
>
> The reason is this. A prop being used to power the boat has a slip factor, probably quite modest for a good prop, but likely to be around 10 to 20%. This means, in essence, that the prop is spinning 10 - 20% faster than it theoretically needs to to propel the boat.
>
> A motor used as a generator needs to spin at enough rpm to generate a voltage that is high enough to charge the battery. The relationship between voltage and rpm is the same for generation as it is for propulsion.
>
> Because of the slip factor, the prop being used as a turbine will spin more slowly at a given hull speed than it will when used for propulsion. To get the prop speed up to the same rpm needs a different pitch when the prop is used as a turbine.
>
> If you have a variable pitch prop then it should be possible to alter the pitch when in regen mode to get better efficiency. Ideally you really need a larger diameter prop for use as a turbine, as diameter has a greater effect on efficiency than pitch.
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <haywardt@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am curious as to why it is so challenging to achieve good regen rates when towed impeller generators produce such high charge rates. I would think the placement and size of the prop would produce better results than a towed generator. Is it a problem with the controller? Have you tried sailing with the throttle slightly in reverse?
> >
>

__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: New guy with a touring/camper mod.

 

Hi Mark,

I liked your pictures, the build looks like it is going well. Since you're so close to being operational, I would suggest that you splash the baot and collect some performance figures before you go a lot deeper into purchasing panels and such. You need to get an idea about how much electricity you'll actually need to replace so that you can size your solution appropriately. Right now, I think that you would be better served by finishing your battery bank instead of starting the whole renewable generation part of the project. Get a good plug in charger to get you through the operational tests.

I'm looking forward to your opinions about how the conversion work on the water.

Fair winds and smooth seas,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "lochadio" <lochadio@...> wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> I'm Mark, the new guy from up in North Scituate, Rhode Island.
>
> To quickly cover the personal background stuff:
> I studied Fine Art in college, (sculpture and photography). I never made a dime off it but it's managed to stay a big part of my life.
> I've been a carpenter for close to 40 years, doing mostly finish work now.
> I have some experience in electronics at the component level. I'm okay with "point-to-points" but I'd be in trouble if I had to read a schematic.
> Divorced, no kids, 1 dog and like everybody else in the construction trades ...unemployed.
>
>
> I'd been thinking about building a houseboat for a few years now, one that would run without fossil fuels and be essentially "off-the-grid".
> I hope to spend time touring the inland waterways in the US someday.
> I wanted to start on a prototype and did some drawings but I didn't have the space to start fabricating hulls.
>
> The original idea is here:
>
> http://solarboat.blogspot.com/
>
> There's a link to some drawings at the top of the right hand column, you should skip the text unless you've got insomnia issues.
>
> I grew up around boats, both power and sail, but this being "The Ocean State" I never had any experience with pontoon barges as they really aren't well suited for salt water.
> I got a close look at one for the first time a year ago and it got the wheels turning.
>
> I found a 20 foot 1989 Manitou Fish Hawk on Craigslist. The motor was blown and the furniture was toast but the pontoons and the trailer were in great shape and the price was right. I stripped it down to the trusses, replaced the deck with mahogany, added an 8' x 12' canopy for a PV array and wells large enough to hold 8 deep cycle RV/marine batteries. The plan is to turn it into a touring boat and a camper. There will be roll-down canvas panels around the canopy and the benches will turn into bunks.
>
> I haven't figured out how to transfer the files from my Flickr account to here yet, so for now...
> These are some shots of the early construction stages:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627783354944/
>
> This is it with some of the wiring installed:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/68066846@N04/sets/72157627790086652/
>
> The construction is going well over all There's only a couple of days work left before I can get it wet.
> I did put in the water once to check the buoyancy and balance but I haven't run it under power yet.
>
> I need to get started on the charging systems now. With 96 square feet of canopy, I've got room for a fair size PV array. but I don't see it providing enough power. I had planned on adding vertical axis wind turbines, but all the designs I came up with ate up too much deck space.
> I may try and put them on outriggers if I can find a way to keep them from getting wrecked dock-side or crushed going thru locks.
>
> I've been looking into getting some power regeneration from the motors. Technically all I'd need to do would be to anchor in a strong current but I'd need a different set of props to get any real power generation and swapping out the props every night and then back in the morning sounds like a chore.
>
> Feel free to hit me up with questions, suggestions or pointers. I've got a LOT of free time these days.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from you.
>
> Mark
>

__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: Anyone with experience re this inline thruster

 

Hi Mike,

So in your professional opinion, do you think that this specific technology will be better (more efficient) for our boats than conventional props? Are you going to think about suggesting this type of drive to one of your conversion clients instead of an Electric Yacht drive?

Eric

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Gunning" <mike@...> wrote:
>
>
> The Voith company has built traction systems for the tugboat industry for a long time. The systems are remarkable in their ability to place power within 360 degree. I have been on tugs and have gone from full power forward to reverse and to the side and it defies what I have seen on any other boat.
> The inline thruster seems to be another innovative product from a well respected company. The engineering seems to be first rate and the manufacturing displayed in their past products is first class. I would not consider any product from them to be anything but commercial and viable.
> Mike Electric Yachts So Cal
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lockley <lockleymark1@> wrote:
> >
> > Found this item on the internet but not any real information about do they last or are they just a gimmick still to be field proven.
> >  
> > http://www.voithturbo.com/vt_en_pua_marine_vct_inline-thruster.htm
> >  
> > Any ideas anyone ?
> >
>

__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 

Hi Tim,

Towed impeller generators do not acheive significant charge rates. The amps looks good because they are only doing 12V. In reality, a hydrogenerator of any sort struggles to generate a consistant 100W at 6kts. Check their literature and do the math. If all you want to do is collect enough to cover your house loads, regen and towed generators are fine, charging your traction bank is a differnt problem.

With most of our converted displacement auxiliary sailboats around 30', a consistant 6 knots only shows up on a good day, most of my days are spent around 5 knots or less, that means that the regen will be significantly less than the 100W listed above. How fast do you usually sail your boat?

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <haywardt@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am curious as to why it is so challenging to achieve good regen rates when towed impeller generators produce such high charge rates. I would think the placement and size of the prop would produce better results than a towed generator. Is it a problem with the controller? Have you tried sailing with the throttle slightly in reverse?
>

__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:

[Electric Boats] Re: REGEN SUCCESS!

 


Its the prop.

The reason is this. A prop being used to power the boat has a slip factor, probably quite modest for a good prop, but likely to be around 10 to 20%. This means, in essence, that the prop is spinning 10 - 20% faster than it theoretically needs to to propel the boat.

A motor used as a generator needs to spin at enough rpm to generate a voltage that is high enough to charge the battery. The relationship between voltage and rpm is the same for generation as it is for propulsion.

Because of the slip factor, the prop being used as a turbine will spin more slowly at a given hull speed than it will when used for propulsion. To get the prop speed up to the same rpm needs a different pitch when the prop is used as a turbine.

If you have a variable pitch prop then it should be possible to alter the pitch when in regen mode to get better efficiency. Ideally you really need a larger diameter prop for use as a turbine, as diameter has a greater effect on efficiency than pitch.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <haywardt@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I am curious as to why it is so challenging to achieve good regen rates when towed impeller generators produce such high charge rates. I would think the placement and size of the prop would produce better results than a towed generator. Is it a problem with the controller? Have you tried sailing with the throttle slightly in reverse?
>

__._,_.___
MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by at No comments:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)