Tuesday, June 1, 2010

[Electric Boats] Re: Dufour 34 conversion, first sea trial

 

Excellent! Wait until you get your hull/prop cleaned - that will make a huge difference (esp prop).

I would love it if you can post some numbers once your amp meter is working. This is one of the larger installations and the first I am aware using the RT, so I'm sure the group would love to see some numbers to compare.

I think you'll find your battery bank is too small in that the Peukert effect might have a large influence on range. But I understand that at your voltage adding more AH is going to be difficult.

Regards,

-Keith

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Re: [Electric Boats] Dufour 34 conversion, first sea trial

 

Alberto,

What is the  displacement of your DUfour. I am putting an electric yacht 260i system in my  boat (Moody 43) in  the next week or so,.

Skip

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Alberto Cogut <Alberto.Cogut@verizon.net> wrote:
 

Over the weekend I finalized the system installation and yesterday we had the first sea trial.  The boat is a 1975 Dufour 34, about 14,000#.  The system's main components are: Mars ME0709 (Etek RT), Kelly PM72401 controller, QuickCharge multi-battery charger, 72V AGM battery pack, 400A solenoid, and Paktrkr monitor.  Gear is 2.4:1 ratio, high-torque synchronous.  The system started immediately.  The only problem was the AMP meter, which unfortunately did not work.

Conditions: wind was somewhat gusty, 10 knots, flat seas.  The boat has been in the water for a long time and there are quite a few barnacles on the bottom, and I would guess on the propeller too (unfortunately the Northern Chesapeake is getting murkier and it is very difficult to visually check more than 1 or 2 inches deep).  The prop is the same, inefficient two-blade 13x10 that was used with the diesel.

First impressions: unbelievably quite.  Up to 3.0/3.2 knots it was impossible to tell if the motor was running or not, at 4.0 a low hum, a little louder at 4.5 (the engine compartment is sound insulated and the motor/gear frame is mounted on the old diesel mounts).  The difference between motoring with and against the wind was less than ½ knot at around 3.0 knots.  We took the boat against the wind up to around 5.5 knots (which it would have been the limit with the diesel, given the hull/propeller condition) and I still had about ¼ of the throttle run left.  After a minute or so we lowered the speed to 3.0 knots and I checked the system, the controller was not even warm (it is mounted on a hefty heat sink), the motor was quite hot to the touch.  I would have liked to be able to read the amp-meter…  Besides the quite ride, the other great surprise was backing into the slip: for the first time I had good control and immediate response.  Once on shore power, the battery charger got really hot (more than the motor), to the point that I will relocate it to a better ventilated area.

Overall we were extremely happy.  Range with the smallish 105Ah bank will be the next item to determine, but I expect it to serve us well for the kind of sailing we do. 

For those using the ME0709, how hot does it normally get?

Alberto


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[Electric Boats] Dufour 34 conversion, first sea trial

 

Over the weekend I finalized the system installation and yesterday we had the first sea trial.  The boat is a 1975 Dufour 34, about 14,000#.  The system’s main components are: Mars ME0709 (Etek RT), Kelly PM72401 controller, QuickCharge multi-battery charger, 72V AGM battery pack, 400A solenoid, and Paktrkr monitor.  Gear is 2.4:1 ratio, high-torque synchronous.  The system started immediately.  The only problem was the AMP meter, which unfortunately did not work.

Conditions: wind was somewhat gusty, 10 knots, flat seas.  The boat has been in the water for a long time and there are quite a few barnacles on the bottom, and I would guess on the propeller too (unfortunately the Northern Chesapeake is getting murkier and it is very difficult to visually check more than 1 or 2 inches deep).  The prop is the same, inefficient two-blade 13x10 that was used with the diesel.

First impressions: unbelievably quite.  Up to 3.0/3.2 knots it was impossible to tell if the motor was running or not, at 4.0 a low hum, a little louder at 4.5 (the engine compartment is sound insulated and the motor/gear frame is mounted on the old diesel mounts).  The difference between motoring with and against the wind was less than ½ knot at around 3.0 knots.  We took the boat against the wind up to around 5.5 knots (which it would have been the limit with the diesel, given the hull/propeller condition) and I still had about ¼ of the throttle run left.  After a minute or so we lowered the speed to 3.0 knots and I checked the system, the controller was not even warm (it is mounted on a hefty heat sink), the motor was quite hot to the touch.  I would have liked to be able to read the amp-meter…  Besides the quite ride, the other great surprise was backing into the slip: for the first time I had good control and immediate response.  Once on shore power, the battery charger got really hot (more than the motor), to the point that I will relocate it to a better ventilated area.

Overall we were extremely happy.  Range with the smallish 105Ah bank will be the next item to determine, but I expect it to serve us well for the kind of sailing we do. 

For those using the ME0709, how hot does it normally get?

Alberto

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Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion- Prop change

 

I found Ebay was a good sour ce for props when I did the engine change.  I bought two 3 blades , which I have yet to try on the LION, and an old school 2 blade that's on there now. .  All were pretty mcu like new. As I recall none was over $35 with maybe $12 shipping.  May take a while to find what you want, but ....
 
Best Regards,


Paul <paul136mc@yahoo.com>


Paul C. Smith 707 874 2112
PO Box 120
Camp meeker, CA 95419


From: David Brooks <avantiman@yahoo.ca>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 12:44:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Yes Eric et al, my system is 36 volts because the large sweeper batteries (3) just fit tightly into the previous engine space just aft of the companionway. The motor, controller etc. are for 36 or 48 volts.  Roughly 5 hp electric with 6" advanced dc brushed motor.  System bought complete from Spincraft Electric Boats, Ottawa, Canada.  I do get 4 mph at 25 amps, 5 mph at about 60 amps and top out at 6.4 to 6.7 mph at 100 amps.  It could be possibly better than that as I blew my ammeter during some rewiring so it might not show increased efficiency with cogged belts.   I do however have the gut feeling that an 11 x 14 prop MIGHT give me more speed, but experimenting costs about $380 Canadian for each new prop.  A lot of sailboats my size, 23 feet, use a much smaller diameter prop to keep drag down.  I do however have gobs of torque for manouvering.
Dave


From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo. com>
To: electricboats@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 1:11:41 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Hi Dave,

Your amp numbers seemed high for your size boat until I read in a previous post that you are only running 36V. Can you tell us a little more about your installation, i.e. motor, reduction ratio, batteries, etc.?

As Myles noted in another recent post, this forum seems to be one of very few places where objective data about electric conversions is available. The performance data that you provided is excellent, but doesn't have enough detail about the system to make it relevant to other potential EV converts.

Thanks,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@ yahoogroups. com, David Brooks <avantiman@.. .> wrote:
>
> What you may not be aware of is that "overpropping" ie. too much diameter or too much pitch will overload the motor at almost any speed or throttle position. I observed the following with my Helsen 23 motorsailer about 3500 pounds loaded. 9 x 6 two blade got 4 mph top speed at 60 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 8 three blade got 5 mph top speed at 75 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 15 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 150 amps and hot, hot.
> 12 x 13 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 100 amps , not hot with 2 v-belts.
> Same prop with cogged belt gets 6.7 mph in calm water.
> You should always prop to motor's continuous rating, in my case 100 amps at full throttle to not overload the motor. I can run with closed engine hatch for 3-4 hours straight and easily hold my hand on the motor. Cool also means reliable. Bigger may be hydronamically more efficient, but can cause overloading and death to electronics.
> Dave Brooks
>



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Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Gear ratio of belt drives is 3" pulley on electric motor and 5 and 1/2" on prop shaft.  Initial pulleys from Spincraft were 3" and 6" but clearances to hull bottom were too tight.  Roughly 2/1 so it appears.
Dave


From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 12:22:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Dave,

Do you know the "gear" ratio of your belt drive?

Thanks,
Eric

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Brooks <avantiman@...> wrote:
>
> Yes Eric et al, my system is 36 volts because the large sweeper batteries (3) just fit tightly into the previous engine space just aft of the companionway. The motor, controller etc. are for 36 or 48 volts. Roughly 5 hp electric with 6" advanced dc brushed motor. System bought complete from Spincraft Electric Boats, Ottawa, Canada....
> Dave
>


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Monday, May 31, 2010

Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Dave,

Do you know the "gear" ratio of your belt drive?

Thanks,
Eric

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Brooks <avantiman@...> wrote:
>
> Yes Eric et al, my system is 36 volts because the large sweeper batteries (3) just fit tightly into the previous engine space just aft of the companionway. The motor, controller etc. are for 36 or 48 volts. Roughly 5 hp electric with 6" advanced dc brushed motor. System bought complete from Spincraft Electric Boats, Ottawa, Canada....
> Dave
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Yes Eric et al, my system is 36 volts because the large sweeper batteries (3) just fit tightly into the previous engine space just aft of the companionway. The motor, controller etc. are for 36 or 48 volts.  Roughly 5 hp electric with 6" advanced dc brushed motor.  System bought complete from Spincraft Electric Boats, Ottawa, Canada.  I do get 4 mph at 25 amps, 5 mph at about 60 amps and top out at 6.4 to 6.7 mph at 100 amps.  It could be possibly better than that as I blew my ammeter during some rewiring so it might not show increased efficiency with cogged belts.   I do however have the gut feeling that an 11 x 14 prop MIGHT give me more speed, but experimenting costs about $380 Canadian for each new prop.  A lot of sailboats my size, 23 feet, use a much smaller diameter prop to keep drag down.  I do however have gobs of torque for manouvering.
Dave


From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 1:11:41 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Hi Dave,

Your amp numbers seemed high for your size boat until I read in a previous post that you are only running 36V. Can you tell us a little more about your installation, i.e. motor, reduction ratio, batteries, etc.?

As Myles noted in another recent post, this forum seems to be one of very few places where objective data about electric conversions is available. The performance data that you provided is excellent, but doesn't have enough detail about the system to make it relevant to other potential EV converts.

Thanks,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Brooks <avantiman@...> wrote:
>
> What you may not be aware of is that "overpropping" ie. too much diameter or too much pitch will overload the motor at almost any speed or throttle position. I observed the following with my Helsen 23 motorsailer about 3500 pounds loaded. 9 x 6 two blade got 4 mph top speed at 60 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 8 three blade got 5 mph top speed at 75 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 15 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 150 amps and hot, hot.
> 12 x 13 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 100 amps , not hot with 2 v-belts.
> Same prop with cogged belt gets 6.7 mph in calm water.
> You should always prop to motor's continuous rating, in my case 100 amps at full throttle to not overload the motor. I can run with closed engine hatch for 3-4 hours straight and easily hold my hand on the motor. Cool also means reliable. Bigger may be hydronamically more efficient, but can cause overloading and death to electronics.
> Dave Brooks
>


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