T-Pain Is On A Boat

Wednesday, July 1, 2009

Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

Chris Witzgall wrote:
> I would think that the biggest challenge would be storage of the CNG,
> depending on your run-time needs. CNG storage is space-inefficient. You can
> store a gallon of gasoline or diesel in the actual space the fuel takes up
> (well, almost). Propane takes more space, and CNG even more.
>
Yes , it's hard to beat the energy density in liquid hydrocarbon fuels.
LPG gives a derate to the engine and has to be stored in a pressure
cylinder. CNG even more so. Liquefied Natural Gas isn't so bad, but the
cryogenic equipment needed to deal with it is some what a problem, so
they tend to only liquefy it for sea transport it appears.

> I have never bought CNG, but have read that it is an expensive alternative,
> where you can find it.
>
Depends. CNG burns clean - hence it's common use in Urban buses. Some
countries subsidise it's use to encourage use of the cleaner fuel.
(Argentina/Brazil ?). If your country has access to large gas fields, it
may even really be cheaper than Oil products at a wholesale level. Would
depend on domestic supply vs imports. Oil is certainly easier to carry
around the planet.

Natural Gas completely replaced 'coal gas' as the gas used domestically
for heating and cooking in Urban Australia and is piped around most
major urban centres. High pressure pipe lines cross the country (1000's
of km of them) to get the gas from the fields to the major urban
centres. The only people using LPG domestically would be people who are
'off grid' and use cylinders of gas to run their appliances.

But unlike some countries, CNG not piped into filling stations for use
in road vehicles. The Sydney buses that use CNG are restricted to
certain depots that have been equiped with suitable filling equipment,
and not all depots can be easily equiped as they are not near a suitable
bulk delivery high pressure gas main. They got to the silly situation in
one area where due to 'political' pressures, they used new CNG powered
buses on a route, but their depot wasn't able to be equiped with gas
fueling facilities (to far from a high pressure main), so the buses
drove to another depot every day to fill up!.

There has been commentary in Australia that we should be encouraging
more use of CNG in transport as we export Natural Gas (in Liquefied
Natural Gas tankers) but have to import oil. If you have to import both,
the higher shipping costs of LNG might rather change the equation.

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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions

Thanks Mark,

for your comments and Idea's.

The thing is, however, this boat has a inboard motor, which is the main reason I bought the boat. You can see the pictures on the link I send earliyer. I liked the way the motor is constructed and allready had the idea that if exsisting motor wouldn't work,I could easely change the motor. There isn't even room to place a outboard or troller motor. (allthough, everything can be made offcourse). Golf cartmotors I also looked at. The thing is that I dont know that much of electronics,to make a good choice.

But anyway thanks a lotfor the info! I apreciate it.

Roland kruijer

To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
From: mstafford@natca.net
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:13:42 +0000
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions

Roland,

Welcome. There are many little details that all fit together to make a happy electric boat. Like car motors, if the parts are designed to work together, it is a good car.

Your boat was designed to go great, but a little slower than you occasionally need. Mostly fine, but sometimes, for a few minutes, too slow.

If you want to play with pulleys and motors and controllers and batteries and cables and propellers and throttles, it will probably be expensive, but you might have a lot of fun.

If you want to boat, to go out on the water, just add a 50 to 100 pound thrust trolling motor, like the kind that fishing boats use to go slow. It could drink electrons from the same batteries you already have. Or the German Torqeedo: more expensive, but it would help you go faster through the narrow sections in the river than a trolling motor (fishing motor) might. Borrow a strong trolling motor and try it.

Motor controllers: right now, your motor controller is just an on/off switch. There are electronic controllers like this, that switch the power on and off hundreds or even thousands of times per second. These are great, but expensive, and the most popular technique is called Pulse Width Modulation (PWM). They send high voltage and amperage (speed and number of electrons) pulses to the motor.

A cheaper kind of controller gives the motor less voltage for less speed. It is easy to waste energy with this technique, since higher voltages make more efficient systems. Most European nations use 220volts AC for houses, while the generally more wasteful and less efficient USA uses 120volt AC.

If you are willing to play with the parts, and try some mix and match, and maybe ruin a few parts, Chris S. has a great suggestion about 750watt motors. You would have great fun. They are on the big side for the scooter market, but the pricing is still much better than larger motors, and the motor controller are much much cheaper too.

Another option: electric golf cart guts. You would need more batteries (whatever the golf cart voltage), but you would certainly go fast enough.

Good luck,
Mark Stafford

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "hardy71uk" <p0054107@...> wrote:
>
> I think a 750w motor would be ideal . 1KW maximum as larger is more expensive and would need a more expensive controller.
>
> Chris S
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roland Kruijer" <martine_roland@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Group,
> >
> > My name is Roland Kruijer and I'm from The Netherlands.
> >
> > I'm just entering the electric community as I bought an electric boat just a couple of weeks ago. http://www.electraboat.com/
> >
> > Maybe some of you know this boat or have one. I'm having a little problem with the speed of the boat. I allready changed the pulleys but as a result, the motor becomes hot, so I'm figuring that is not the way to do it. It now has a 300 Watt, 24 V electric motor which would be sufficient in a pond, but I live by a slow streaming river, there for the motor is too weak. Oh, and the batteries are 2 x 12 V 200 amp in series.
> > Now, I'm searching for a replacement (bigger) motor to use. Also I read there's need for a controller?? and I'm also looking for a throttle of some kind, because the boat now only has on/off switch.
> >
> > I saw on the net that there are lots of electric scootermotors for sale, can these be used?
> > What kind of motor should I use? The boat doesn't have to be a speedboat.
> > Is it possible to use an ordinary electric motor, but instead of the 300w one with 600 or 900 watt?
> > I'm a bit concerned about the power of the batteries going straight to the motor. The orriginal set-up got the motor handwarm, but since I changed the pulley, its becomming, well, hotter.
> >
> >
> > As I said, I'm just entering this electric world and do not have experience in electronics. I'm more an automotive guy, so any advice would be great!
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Roland Kruijer
> >
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

I would think that the biggest challenge would be storage of the CNG,
depending on your run-time needs. CNG storage is space-inefficient. You can
store a gallon of gasoline or diesel in the actual space the fuel takes up
(well, almost). Propane takes more space, and CNG even more.

I have never bought CNG, but have read that it is an expensive alternative,
where you can find it.

Chris

On 6/30/09 1:11 PM, "aweekdaysailor" <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> Does anyone on the group have experience with using CNG on their generator?
> That seems an ideal solution (paired with CNG stove/heater/fridge for example)
> - I really hate having gasoline on board and I have to say I've never
> successfully re-fueled any portable device without spilling gas (and CA's
> stupid CARB containers only make the problem worse).
>
> I see kits on eBay for converting the Honda's/Yamaha's to tri-fuel
> (propane/CNG/gas)- not too expensive and claimed to be easy. I don't like
> propane for the same reasons as gas, so I'm interested in pro's/con's of CNG
> (like - is energy density/smell/etc an issue?)
>
> Thx
>
> -Keith
>
>
>
>
>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions

Hello Russ,

Thank you this very informative mail. I did allready look to find parts but it seemed that I wasn't on the right path. And,yes it's a fun boat!

Roland Kruijer

To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
From: k1hop@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:15:08 +0000
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions

hi Roland...

If you can place your hand on the motor it's probably not over heating badly. But if you cannot make headway against the river, then surely you need more power for safety and enjoyment.

I think the scooter motor you mentioned is a good track to follow... many are available, often complete with controller in wide HP ratings from 300-1500 watt. That would be about 2HP at the high end. Considering how small your current motor is and the performance you are obtaining, I would think at least 1HP (750 watts) would be a minimum worthwhile change.

Many of these larger motors might require 36 or 48 volts... but no big deal to simply add one or two more batteries in series with what you now have (I'd suggest keeping as close to the same type as possible). With higher voltage, you can obtain the increased power without big increases in current (power = volts x amps). Thus your existing wiring might even be usable. You WILL need a controller, and you will enhance your enjoyment lots by the ability to control speed/power as conditions warrant. I don't think a simple on/off switch is appropriate except for a toy :) Or maybe something so underpowered that you want "all you can get" at all times anyway!

There are tons of scooter motors of many sizes, shapes, power, etc available online (simply Google for them) and also they are popular on eBay. Here's just one site to get you started and more familiar with what's out there:

http://superkids.stores.yahoo.net/scmococoki.html

Of course, I have no affiliation with this firm, they simply were book marked in my "electric vehicle" folder.

I'm sure others here can advise you much better on appropriate pulley, prop, etc considerations. Best of luck with your new boat! Sure looks like fun!!

Russ

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Roland Kruijer" <martine_roland@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Group,
>
> My name is Roland Kruijer and I'm from The Netherlands.
>
> I'm just entering the electric community as I bought an electric boat just a couple of weeks ago. http://www.electraboat.com/
>
> Maybe some of you know this boat or have one. I'm having a little problem with the speed of the boat. I allready changed the pulleys but as a result, the motor becomes hot, so I'm figuring that is not the way to do it. It now has a 300 Watt, 24 V electric motor which would be sufficient in a pond, but I live by a slow streaming river, there for the motor is too weak. Oh, and the batteries are 2 x 12 V 200 amp in series.
> Now, I'm searching for a replacement (bigger) motor to use. Also I read there's need for a controller?? and I'm also looking for a throttle of some kind, because the boat now only has on/off switch.
>
> I saw on the net that there are lots of electric scootermotors for sale, can these be used?
> What kind of motor should I use? The boat doesn't have to be a speedboat.
> Is it possible to use an ordinary electric motor, but instead of the 300w one with 600 or 900 watt?
> I'm a bit concerned about the power of the batteries going straight to the motor. The orriginal set-up got the motor handwarm, but since I changed the pulley, its becomming, well, hotter.
>
>
> As I said, I'm just entering this electric world and do not have experience in electronics. I'm more an automotive guy, so any advice would be great!
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Roland Kruijer
>

__________________________________________________________
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http://www.msnmessengerexperience.nl/chuck/

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Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

chris kelly wrote:
> What is CNG? is it the same as Propane?
>

Compressed Natural Gas. It's mostly Methane. The exact composition
tends to vary by the field it came from.

Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) is a significant portion of Propane
(mixed with Butane), the proportions vary a bit by season and region.
LPG is a by-product of oil production/refining. Natural Gas , as the
name implies, comes out of the ground that way. (Or or less, I'm sure
it's 'cleaned' before distribution).

The two types are not quite interchangeable, LPG has a significantly
higher 'calorific' value than Natural Gas.

Where I live (Sydney, Aus) we have CNG powered buses, and LPG powered
Taxis. People occasionally convert private cars to run on LPG, and there
is infrastructure (fueling stations that supply it) due to the Taxi
industry. I'm not aware of any 'retail' CNG filling station. The buses
that use CNG have their own plant at the bus depot, hooked up to the
Natural Gas supply network. Natural Gas is piped to many homes. My home
has natural gas cooking and heating. The heater is running as I type this.
Natural Gas heaters (and cooking stoves) are unflued as the exhaust is
not toxic. (Or at least non toxic till the CO2 levels increase and the
oxygen in the room is burned :-). The gas itself is non toxic as well.
(Or at least until it displaces the Oxygen you need).

LPG cylinders are common used for gas cooking, and are so popular for
outdoor 'BBQ' cooking that there is a well developed 'swap and go'
system for distributing the gas.

Other countries have more developed CNG infrastructure and private cars
do use it instead of oil derivatives.

For my boat, it simply wouldn't be worth hacking apart my EU20i to make
it run on LPG. The gas cylinder would weigh as much as the alternator
kit, and certainly significantly more than the plastic 5L petrol
container I take my emergency supply in. Although unlike the unleaded,
ethanol blended petrol, the LPG probably won't go off over winter. :-)

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RE: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

What is CNG? is it the same as Propane?

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, Richard R <hypno2u@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Richard R <hypno2u@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 8:05 PM

well... I LOVE my CNG stove.... when you get the info.. please share

Richard Rumble

" Mister Hypnosis "

Comedy Hypnosis Shows

http://www.misterhy pnosis.com

1-800-60-HYPNO

To: electricboats@ yahoogroups. com
From: aweekdaysailor@ yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:11:14 +0000
Subject: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

Does anyone on the group have experience with using CNG on their generator? That seems an ideal solution (paired with CNG stove/heater/ fridge for example) - I really hate having gasoline on board and I have to say I've never successfully re-fueled any portable device without spilling gas (and CA's stupid CARB containers only make the problem worse).

I see kits on eBay for converting the Honda's/Yamaha' s to tri-fuel (propane/CNG/ gas)- not too expensive and claimed to be easy. I don't like propane for the same reasons as gas, so I'm interested in pro's/con's of CNG (like - is energy density/smell/ etc an issue?)

Thx

-Keith

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [Electric Boats] new member and, of course, questions

Hello Reino,

Thank you very much for transfering me to these sites!

Roland

To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
From: reino.urala@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:38:31 +0300
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] new member and, of course, questions

Roland,
heating = poor efficiency!
A good permanent magnet DC motor efficiency is about 90%. For instance
my motor:
http://www.perm-motor.de/site/de/produkte/gleichstrom_motoren.php?linkid=p&linkid2=4
Good and expensive!
Or this:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_etek-r.php
Good and some less expensive!
Good smaller power rating motors must exist, but I do not know about them!

This 4HP 24 motor:
Poor efficiency here too = 45amps @ no load (!).
RPM may be too high for you? Present RPM? Motor can be used at lower
RPM, but efficiency is worse, and power is smaller.

redu

Roland Kruijer wrote:
> Hi Reino,
>
>
>
> I was looking on the net I came upon this motor. http://cgi.ebay.com/4-HP-24V-DC-VEHICLE-ELECTRIC-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ310054102624QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4830aa2660&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30
>
>
>
> Now, as I told I'm not that a electrician, but would this be a good motor. I am considered about the amp's on load?? Forgive me if I am asking the wrong things, but thats my problem. What do I need and what should I look for as in motor.
>
>
>
> Ok, thanks again,
>
>
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> From: reino.urala@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:47:54 +0300
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] new member and, of course, questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Roland,
> Reino Urala from Finland
> Right now testing an el-boat with about similar battery capacity (4kWh).
> Some measured reference data:
> speed 4knots, range 50km, 350W
> speed 8knots, range 15km, 2200W
> speed 12knots, range 8km, 6000W
> But this is a trimaran with small "hull speed effect"!
> Note1: Increasing power means decreasing range dramatically.
> Note2: Your boat is strongly "hull speed limited", and increasing power
> would be much more fatal concerning speed and max. range!
> Note3: A low wave drag el-boat is peculiar: You may make hundreds of km
> by cruising really slowly. And you may make 15kn for short sprints.
>
> redu
>
> Roland Kruijer wrote:
>
>> Hello Group,
>>
>> My name is Roland Kruijer and I'm from The Netherlands.
>>
>> I'm just entering the electric community as I bought an electric boat just a couple of weeks ago. http://www.electraboat.com/
>>
>> Maybe some of you know this boat or have one. I'm having a little problem with the speed of the boat. I allready changed the pulleys but as a result, the motor becomes hot, so I'm figuring that is not the way to do it. It now has a 300 Watt, 24 V electric motor which would be sufficient in a pond, but I live by a slow streaming river, there for the motor is too weak. Oh, and the batteries are 2 x 12 V 200 amp in series.
>> Now, I'm searching for a replacement (bigger) motor to use. Also I read there's need for a controller?? and I'm also looking for a throttle of some kind, because the boat now only has on/off switch.
>>
>> I saw on the net that there are lots of electric scootermotors for sale, can these be used?
>> What kind of motor should I use? The boat doesn't have to be a speedboat.
>> Is it possible to use an ordinary electric motor, but instead of the 300w one with 600 or 900 watt?
>> I'm a bit concerned about the power of the batteries going straight to the motor. The orriginal set-up got the motor handwarm, but since I changed the pulley, its becomming, well, hotter.
>>
>>
>> As I said, I'm just entering this electric world and do not have experience in electronics. I'm more an automotive guy, so any advice would be great!
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Roland Kruijer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Haal meer uit je leven met Windows Live
> http://www.microsoft.com/netherlands/windowslive/Views/index.aspx
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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T-Pain Is On A Boat

Wednesday, July 1, 2009

Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions

Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

RE: [Electric Boats] Re: new member and, of course, questions

Re: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

RE: [Electric Boats] CNG/Tri-fuel Generators?

RE: [Electric Boats] new member and, of course, questions

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