[electricboats] Where should an hour meter go?

What's the right spot in an electric propulsion system for an hour meter?
Which component(s) do people feel are most important to track usage time?
This is likely something simple to do, and would also be appreciated by any future prospective purchaser, I believe.
I was thinking about connecting it to the contactor that activates the motor controller.  But alternative ideas would be welcome.
(Of course, if there's an argument for not even bothering, I'd appreciate hearing that, too!)

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Re: [electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

This sounds a bit misleading to me.

 

Yes, with lead acid and with some Lithium chemistries, particularly Lithium Ion, measuring voltage alone can give a good indication of SOC.  Having said that, the SOC does not indicate how many AmpHours remain.  I mean, the older and more sulfated a lead-acid battery set is, the more voltage alone does not tell you much at all.  Historically, EV conversion folks have used current monitoring via shunts and amp-hour estimation (e.g. using Xantrex Link-10) to track actual Amphours returned in charge and Amphours delivered in use.  It was really the preferred and reliable way to be sure how much actual "capacity" (vs SOC%) was available for a trip.  Many times I was disappointed to find that my "fully charged" lead acid pack would deliver far less than I expected, leading me to fire up my generator while underway on my boat.  Since going to lithium ion on my boat, voltage measurement alone is quite sufficient to inform how much capacity remains.

 

Having said all that, I think monitoring actual amp-hours absorbed and delivered is very good information to have.  You're in a boat, perhaps motoring downstream several miles, then up another branch of water or upwind or against tide and it's important to track capacity used so that you can estimate whether or not you need to slow down in order to have the capacity to reach the destination.

 

FWIW-

 

-MT

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Darin
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2024 8:15 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

 

Lars, 

 

Battery voltage is usually used alone to calculate SOC for lead acid, which explains why you don't have a hall effect sensor.  Yes, I would say the BDI number is probably the same as SOC for this purpose.  I'm surprised to hear that Thunderstruck hasn't been helpful.  I've always had good support from them personally.  

 

Darin

 

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 10:43 PM SVTwister via groups.io <yellowchair=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't have a shunt or hall-effect sensor to measure current at the battery cable. The display is connected to the Curtis controller which does not have any auxiliary sensors. The controller measures current, which is one of the data the display shows, so it could use that to calculate amp-hours, or it could use the voltage which is another thing the controller measures and displays.

I have four 100 Ah, 12 volt lead-acid batteries, by the way (in series for 48 volts). I stated this when I ordered the kit from Thunderstruck a couple of years ago, so I am wondering if the controller was programmed for my battery bank and how it calculates state of charge. Thunderstruck does not want to or cannot answer these questions.

Re: [electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

Lars, 

Battery voltage is usually used alone to calculate SOC for lead acid, which explains why you don't have a hall effect sensor.  Yes, I would say the BDI number is probably the same as SOC for this purpose.  I'm surprised to hear that Thunderstruck hasn't been helpful.  I've always had good support from them personally.  

Darin

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 10:43 PM SVTwister via groups.io <yellowchair=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I don't have a shunt or hall-effect sensor to measure current at the battery cable. The display is connected to the Curtis controller which does not have any auxiliary sensors. The controller measures current, which is one of the data the display shows, so it could use that to calculate amp-hours, or it could use the voltage which is another thing the controller measures and displays.

I have four 100 Ah, 12 volt lead-acid batteries, by the way (in series for 48 volts). I stated this when I ordered the kit from Thunderstruck a couple of years ago, so I am wondering if the controller was programmed for my battery bank and how it calculates state of charge. Thunderstruck does not want to or cannot answer these questions.

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Re: [electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

I don't have a shunt or hall-effect sensor to measure current at the battery cable. The display is connected to the Curtis controller which does not have any auxiliary sensors. The controller measures current, which is one of the data the display shows, so it could use that to calculate amp-hours, or it could use the voltage which is another thing the controller measures and displays.

I have four 100 Ah, 12 volt lead-acid batteries, by the way (in series for 48 volts). I stated this when I ordered the kit from Thunderstruck a couple of years ago, so I am wondering if the controller was programmed for my battery bank and how it calculates state of charge. Thunderstruck does not want to or cannot answer these questions.

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Re: [electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

I have a thunderstruck kit also but using the dilithium display.  I have a current sensor on the main battery cable that the display uses to "count coulombs" and estimate SOC.  If you have lithium batteries it's probably a similar setup for you as you can't really measure SOC very well from voltage because of the flat lithium discharge curve.  You should see a toroidal device around one of your cables very close to the battery.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024, 10:08 AM Dan Pfeiffer via groups.io <dan=pfeiffer.net@groups.io> wrote:

Is there a shunt sensor on the negative terminal of the battery?   It would need that to be able to count amp-hours.

On 2024-06-20 12:04 pm, SVTwister wrote:

Hi Everyone,
I have a Thunderstruck 10 kW kit with a Curtis AC F4-A controller and a Curtis 3140 display. The display shows BDI (battery discharge indicator, which I guess is the same as State Of  Charge), battery voltage, current, rpm, motor temp, and controller temp--one at a time. There is a button to toggle between the different data. How does the controller calculate State Of Charge for the battery? Is it based on battery voltage or is it counting amp-hours?
Cheers,
Lars

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Re: [electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

Is there a shunt sensor on the negative terminal of the battery?   It would need that to be able to count amp-hours.

On 2024-06-20 12:04 pm, SVTwister wrote:

Hi Everyone,
I have a Thunderstruck 10 kW kit with a Curtis AC F4-A controller and a Curtis 3140 display. The display shows BDI (battery discharge indicator, which I guess is the same as State Of  Charge), battery voltage, current, rpm, motor temp, and controller temp--one at a time. There is a button to toggle between the different data. How does the controller calculate State Of Charge for the battery? Is it based on battery voltage or is it counting amp-hours?
Cheers,
Lars

[electricboats] How does the Curtis F4A controller calculate battery state of charge (SOC) ?

Hi Everyone,
I have a Thunderstruck 10 kW kit with a Curtis AC F4-A controller and a Curtis 3140 display. The display shows BDI (battery discharge indicator, which I guess is the same as State Of  Charge), battery voltage, current, rpm, motor temp, and controller temp--one at a time. There is a button to toggle between the different data. How does the controller calculate State Of Charge for the battery? Is it based on battery voltage or is it counting amp-hours?
Cheers,
Lars

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Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

I have some data. 

I ran the boat with the charging system plugged into the Westinghouse generator.  But, I forgot my laptop and so couldn't reprogram the charger for full output.  It is set at 1000W but can max at 1500W on 120VAC.  But I tried it anyway and will again when I can set it for full power.

With generator running and battery draw about 30W (according to Victron) I made
3.3 north, 3.7 south
Call it 3.5 average.  Sevcon reported about 1000W at motor. Generator reported 1.07kW load, 4hrs run time with 3L fuel remaining.   I have no idea how reliable those numbers are.

I had generator strapped on deck at the mast.  Quite noisy by the standards I have become accustomed to over 3 seasons with electric drive. 

Ill do another test at full charger power and put generator on foredeck.

Dan Pfeiffer



Pearson 10M (33ft)
12500lbs
ME1616 (12kW@48V)
Sevcon controller
18" 3 blade J-Prop
TSM-2500 charger (set at 1000W max)
Victron 712 shunt meter

On 2024-06-02 10:43 am, Dan Pfeiffer wrote:

Not yet.  I have only been in the water and rigged for a bit over a week.  We also haven't had the right conditions for such a test which has been great for sailing.  But thanks for the reminder.  I will give it a try this week if I can and report back. 

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-06-01 7:45 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Dan,

Just wondering if you got to check out using the Westinghouse generator for direct power yet or not. My boat will likely be ready finally this week or so and due to some family commitments I will be looking at shaking out the use of it and moving it to Saket's during the week of June 7-12.

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 12:17 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

I have that exact Westinghouse generator at home to save my ice cream when the power goes out.  Decent unit.   Access to the carb for cleaning could be better?  I had to disassemble it to clean it out after the unit sat un-used with gas left in it and the carb became fouled.  Easy enough fix once I got to the carb.  Would be better if the gas cutoff didn't also shut off the motor so you could run the carb dry.  

I had intended to try it on the boat to see how fast I could motor with it running through the charger and at zero draw from the batteries but I never got around to it.  I plan to do it after spring launch.  Maybe I'll have some data by the end of May.   It can supply more power than I can use through my 1500W charger. 

Another thing to consider is motor sailing. It greatly extends range.   I do have some data on that from last summer.    Should be quite relevant to you with same boat though the prop match is a very important factor.  

Motor Sailing Data Point Sunday September 17, 2023
Pearson 10M, 12,500 lbs, 18" 3 blade prop, 3:1 reduction, full main and 100% headsail
Wind S 5-8 diminishing to 0-2, shifting to N 0-2, building to 7-10, Waves <2
TWA 126, TWS 7.1, BSP 5.2, Watts 1024, RPM 1238 (prop RPM 412)
Estimated range 70 miles at this rate and conditions. 

What is your AC charging setup? 

Sodus to Sackets is 55 nmi.  Seems like a manageable single day to me.  I would never expect to motor the whole way.   I would head out a couple hours before dawn and expect to average 5 knots.  In a couple hrs before sunset.  Any wind direction but NE which would make it a beat.  A good small craft advisory with west wind would make a quick trip of it with perhaps enough boat speed to do regen.  In fact I would probably wait for a day when it was blowing 20 to 25 from the NW if I could.  But that's just me.  I seek out those conditions and I am properly rigged to handle them.  


Dan Pfeifffer

On 2023-12-26 10:25 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hi Dan,

Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!

So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator

 

I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.

 

I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.

Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –

 

I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!

 

Thanks again,

Scott

 

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

The answer to your question is (of course), it depends.    What is the output capacity of your AC charging system?  The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output?  (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?)  You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power.  That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output.  If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit.  You can't get more through the charger.  So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.  

You have  speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is.  If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity.  For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots.  Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs).   You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries. 

You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use?  My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input.  If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts.  So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts.  These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator. 

But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds.  Mainly heat.  Can your motor run at that output level continuously?  That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor.  It can.  The 10kW?  Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation. 

My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.

As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board.  Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process.  Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling.   I would consider a propane powered unit.  Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator.  A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me.  And these generators are strictly for above deck use.  Same for the fuel storage. 


Dan Pfeiffer


More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm

More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm

On 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:

I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH. 
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip. 
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ? 
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?

Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -

Thanks,

 

 

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Hello Dan 

On Jun 2, 2024, at 11:43 AM, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:



Not yet.  I have only been in the water and rigged for a bit over a week.  We also haven't had the right conditions for such a test which has been great for sailing.  But thanks for the reminder.  I will give it a try this week if I can and report back. 

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-06-01 7:45 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Dan,

Just wondering if you got to check out using the Westinghouse generator for direct power yet or not. My boat will likely be ready finally this week or so and due to some family commitments I will be looking at shaking out the use of it and moving it to Saket's during the week of June 7-12.

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 12:17 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

I have that exact Westinghouse generator at home to save my ice cream when the power goes out.  Decent unit.   Access to the carb for cleaning could be better?  I had to disassemble it to clean it out after the unit sat un-used with gas left in it and the carb became fouled.  Easy enough fix once I got to the carb.  Would be better if the gas cutoff didn't also shut off the motor so you could run the carb dry.  

I had intended to try it on the boat to see how fast I could motor with it running through the charger and at zero draw from the batteries but I never got around to it.  I plan to do it after spring launch.  Maybe I'll have some data by the end of May.   It can supply more power than I can use through my 1500W charger. 

Another thing to consider is motor sailing. It greatly extends range.   I do have some data on that from last summer.    Should be quite relevant to you with same boat though the prop match is a very important factor.  

Motor Sailing Data Point Sunday September 17, 2023
Pearson 10M, 12,500 lbs, 18" 3 blade prop, 3:1 reduction, full main and 100% headsail
Wind S 5-8 diminishing to 0-2, shifting to N 0-2, building to 7-10, Waves <2
TWA 126, TWS 7.1, BSP 5.2, Watts 1024, RPM 1238 (prop RPM 412)
Estimated range 70 miles at this rate and conditions. 

What is your AC charging setup? 

Sodus to Sackets is 55 nmi.  Seems like a manageable single day to me.  I would never expect to motor the whole way.   I would head out a couple hours before dawn and expect to average 5 knots.  In a couple hrs before sunset.  Any wind direction but NE which would make it a beat.  A good small craft advisory with west wind would make a quick trip of it with perhaps enough boat speed to do regen.  In fact I would probably wait for a day when it was blowing 20 to 25 from the NW if I could.  But that's just me.  I seek out those conditions and I am properly rigged to handle them.  


Dan Pfeifffer

On 2023-12-26 10:25 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hi Dan,

Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!

So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator

 

I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.

 

I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.

Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –

 

I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!

 

Thanks again,

Scott

 

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

The answer to your question is (of course), it depends.    What is the output capacity of your AC charging system?  The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output?  (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?)  You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power.  That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output.  If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit.  You can't get more through the charger.  So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.  

You have  speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is.  If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity.  For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots.  Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs).   You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries. 

You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use?  My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input.  If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts.  So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts.  These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator. 

But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds.  Mainly heat.  Can your motor run at that output level continuously?  That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor.  It can.  The 10kW?  Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation. 

My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.

As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board.  Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process.  Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling.   I would consider a propane powered unit.  Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator.  A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me.  And these generators are strictly for above deck use.  Same for the fuel storage. 


Dan Pfeiffer


More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm

More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm

On 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:

I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH. 
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip. 
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ? 
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?

Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -

Thanks,

 

 

Re: [electricboats] Used EV battery for home or boat use ? BMS ?

Used EV batteries have been available for some years now, though what is changing is the number of these, which certainly will also reduce the price to purchase.  I bought my first ex-EV batteries for my boat around 2014 and over the years have increased the capacity to 30kwh.  For my first 6kwh, I paid about $300/kwh.  Soon after, entire packs became available and cost was around $200/kwh---these were all new, ex-THINK bankruptcy Enerdel batteries.  Fast forward to 2023, I paid just $50/kwh for a used pack (80kmiles) and probably could have paid half of that.

 

As for Nissan batteries, I have no experience, though I know folks in Europe who have swapped out their Enerdel modules for Nissan modules in their THINK cars.  I don't know if they continued to use the Enerdel remote BMS cards or not, but probably did, and if so, Enerdel RLEC cards work.  The problem there is that you'd then need a master controller to communicate via CAN to the RLEC cards.

My boat, Dan Pence's Ginger and my 1920 Milburn EV all use these batteries and RLEC cards for BMS.  Years ago I wrote code so an Arduino Due microcontroller can act as a master BMS controller.

 

My main reason for going this route was the fact that all these battery modules came with the RLEC remote BMS card and so switching to something else would just cost huge amounts of money.  Since then, I also purchased a large stock of RLEC cards and provide them to THINK owners around the world for an affordable price for their cards.

 

On our boats (Ginger and Reach Of Tide), we almost never balance our cells.  Most of the time the RLEC boards are unpowered.  Once every 6-18 months we'll take a look at cell balance across the packs and if more than 40mv spread, leave the BMS connected for 1-5 days to balance the pack.  There is no reason to maintain power to the BMS cards and continuously balance cells any more frequently for a boat that sees use only 1-3x per month with a battery pack that gets charged just 3-4x per year.  Simply powering a BMS card consumes power---about 1watt in the case of these ones.  But in 1 month's time, that's about ¾ kwh per card---about 15kwh in a month for my pack, or about 50%SOC per month!  Sure, I could power them with shore power, but what's the point?  It only adds risk.  Especially when you also learn the details of a BMS implementation.  Turns out that while one thinks that these RLECs bypass specific cells and not others, in reality even cells not intentionally bypassed will see cell bypassing at a 8% duty cycle.  And bypassed cells see that increased to just 75% duty (25% less than one might expect).  Adding this, there's an extra load on the pack even when all cells are balanced.  So it'd be more like a 60% drop in SOC in 1 month if left operating.

 

So, the devil is in the details as regards BMS.  I haven't shopped for BMS cards so don't have recommendation.  I recall that the Orion BMS cards were running about $500 each---you'd need 1 of these for each of your Nissan strings.  These days I'm sure you can do much better for cheaper.

 

If Enerdel RLEC cards were preferred, contact me…I still have a couple hundred of them.  Not turnkey and might not work with the Nissan cell ratings, but at under $100/card, reasonably affordable…add cabling and cost for a master controller.

 

Anyway, it's really a great time to reuse ex-EV batteries!

 

-Myles

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Carsten via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2024 6:29 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: [electricboats] Used EV battery for home or boat use ? BMS ?

 

Hi, all

Soon there will be a flood of used EV batteries available, still having 70 or 80% capacity.
Getting one of these to use in a sailboat however, requires the right controller.

Hvaing a Maxi 87, My old Volvo diesel engine is to be scrapped now, so the replacement (even of weight) would fit well by a used 70-80% Nissan Leaf 1'st gen. battery placed near the keel, and a suitable BMS in the line, to power the motor.

Anyone knows, or having an idea of, which BMS controllers are capable of handling these car batteries if installed in a boat ?

Regards,
Carsten, Denmark

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Not yet.  I have only been in the water and rigged for a bit over a week.  We also haven't had the right conditions for such a test which has been great for sailing.  But thanks for the reminder.  I will give it a try this week if I can and report back. 

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-06-01 7:45 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Dan,

Just wondering if you got to check out using the Westinghouse generator for direct power yet or not. My boat will likely be ready finally this week or so and due to some family commitments I will be looking at shaking out the use of it and moving it to Saket's during the week of June 7-12.

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 12:17 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

I have that exact Westinghouse generator at home to save my ice cream when the power goes out.  Decent unit.   Access to the carb for cleaning could be better?  I had to disassemble it to clean it out after the unit sat un-used with gas left in it and the carb became fouled.  Easy enough fix once I got to the carb.  Would be better if the gas cutoff didn't also shut off the motor so you could run the carb dry.  

I had intended to try it on the boat to see how fast I could motor with it running through the charger and at zero draw from the batteries but I never got around to it.  I plan to do it after spring launch.  Maybe I'll have some data by the end of May.   It can supply more power than I can use through my 1500W charger. 

Another thing to consider is motor sailing. It greatly extends range.   I do have some data on that from last summer.    Should be quite relevant to you with same boat though the prop match is a very important factor.  

Motor Sailing Data Point Sunday September 17, 2023
Pearson 10M, 12,500 lbs, 18" 3 blade prop, 3:1 reduction, full main and 100% headsail
Wind S 5-8 diminishing to 0-2, shifting to N 0-2, building to 7-10, Waves <2
TWA 126, TWS 7.1, BSP 5.2, Watts 1024, RPM 1238 (prop RPM 412)
Estimated range 70 miles at this rate and conditions. 

What is your AC charging setup? 

Sodus to Sackets is 55 nmi.  Seems like a manageable single day to me.  I would never expect to motor the whole way.   I would head out a couple hours before dawn and expect to average 5 knots.  In a couple hrs before sunset.  Any wind direction but NE which would make it a beat.  A good small craft advisory with west wind would make a quick trip of it with perhaps enough boat speed to do regen.  In fact I would probably wait for a day when it was blowing 20 to 25 from the NW if I could.  But that's just me.  I seek out those conditions and I am properly rigged to handle them.  


Dan Pfeifffer

On 2023-12-26 10:25 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hi Dan,

Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!

So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator

 

I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.

 

I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.

Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –

 

I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!

 

Thanks again,

Scott

 

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

The answer to your question is (of course), it depends.    What is the output capacity of your AC charging system?  The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output?  (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?)  You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power.  That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output.  If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit.  You can't get more through the charger.  So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.  

You have  speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is.  If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity.  For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots.  Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs).   You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries. 

You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use?  My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input.  If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts.  So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts.  These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator. 

But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds.  Mainly heat.  Can your motor run at that output level continuously?  That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor.  It can.  The 10kW?  Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation. 

My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.

As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board.  Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process.  Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling.   I would consider a propane powered unit.  Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator.  A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me.  And these generators are strictly for above deck use.  Same for the fuel storage. 


Dan Pfeiffer


More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm

More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm

On 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:

I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH. 
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip. 
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ? 
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?

Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -

Thanks,

 

 

Re: [electricboats] Used EV battery for home or boat use ? BMS ?

Hi Carsten,
I have a used 21 modules from a Gen 1 Leaf battery to make a 48v battery intended for my 20’ Hourston. I purchased two Daly BMS units from Alibaba (same price as one from Amazon) and I’m very happy with the outcome and quality of the Daly unit. I chose a lower output current control (60 amps) and will wire thru a relay for shut off control from BMS and marine 250a fuse (over current protection) and marine 2 pole battery selector for shutoff and charge/discharge selection.

_._,_._,_

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[electricboats] Used EV battery for home or boat use ? BMS ?

Hi, all

Soon there will be a flood of used EV batteries available, still having 70 or 80% capacity.
Getting one of these to use in a sailboat however, requires the right controller.

Hvaing a Maxi 87, My old Volvo diesel engine is to be scrapped now, so the replacement (even of weight) would fit well by a used 70-80% Nissan Leaf 1'st gen. battery placed near the keel, and a suitable BMS in the line, to power the motor.

Anyone knows, or having an idea of, which BMS controllers are capable of handling these car batteries if installed in a boat ?

Regards,
Carsten, Denmark

_._,_._,_

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You receive all messages sent to this group.

View/Reply Online (#32649) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic
Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner | Unsubscribe [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Hey Dan,

Just wondering if you got to check out using the Westinghouse generator for direct power yet or not. My boat will likely be ready finally this week or so and due to some family commitments I will be looking at shaking out the use of it and moving it to Saket's during the week of June 7-12.

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2023 12:17 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

I have that exact Westinghouse generator at home to save my ice cream when the power goes out.  Decent unit.   Access to the carb for cleaning could be better?  I had to disassemble it to clean it out after the unit sat un-used with gas left in it and the carb became fouled.  Easy enough fix once I got to the carb.  Would be better if the gas cutoff didn't also shut off the motor so you could run the carb dry.  

I had intended to try it on the boat to see how fast I could motor with it running through the charger and at zero draw from the batteries but I never got around to it.  I plan to do it after spring launch.  Maybe I'll have some data by the end of May.   It can supply more power than I can use through my 1500W charger. 

Another thing to consider is motor sailing. It greatly extends range.   I do have some data on that from last summer.    Should be quite relevant to you with same boat though the prop match is a very important factor.  

Motor Sailing Data Point Sunday September 17, 2023
Pearson 10M, 12,500 lbs, 18" 3 blade prop, 3:1 reduction, full main and 100% headsail
Wind S 5-8 diminishing to 0-2, shifting to N 0-2, building to 7-10, Waves <2
TWA 126, TWS 7.1, BSP 5.2, Watts 1024, RPM 1238 (prop RPM 412)
Estimated range 70 miles at this rate and conditions. 

What is your AC charging setup? 

Sodus to Sackets is 55 nmi.  Seems like a manageable single day to me.  I would never expect to motor the whole way.   I would head out a couple hours before dawn and expect to average 5 knots.  In a couple hrs before sunset.  Any wind direction but NE which would make it a beat.  A good small craft advisory with west wind would make a quick trip of it with perhaps enough boat speed to do regen.  In fact I would probably wait for a day when it was blowing 20 to 25 from the NW if I could.  But that's just me.  I seek out those conditions and I am properly rigged to handle them.  


Dan Pfeifffer

On 2023-12-26 10:25 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hi Dan,

Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!

So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator

 

I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.

 

I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.

Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –

 

I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!

 

Thanks again,

Scott

 

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

 

The answer to your question is (of course), it depends.    What is the output capacity of your AC charging system?  The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output?  (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?)  You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power.  That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output.  If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit.  You can't get more through the charger.  So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.  

You have  speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is.  If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity.  For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots.  Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs).   You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries. 

You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use?  My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input.  If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts.  So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts.  These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator. 

But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds.  Mainly heat.  Can your motor run at that output level continuously?  That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor.  It can.  The 10kW?  Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation. 

My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.

As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board.  Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process.  Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling.   I would consider a propane powered unit.  Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator.  A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me.  And these generators are strictly for above deck use.  Same for the fuel storage. 


Dan Pfeiffer


More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm

More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm

On 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:

Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:

I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH. 
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip. 
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ? 
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?

Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -

Thanks,