T-Pain Is On A Boat: March 2024

Tuesday, March 26, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

We are also on a catamaran, 36' 10ton wildcat , and I agree there's not much out there about catamaran hull efficiency, props ect. I'm torn between voltages bc the dual 48v motor is more the enough but are the efficiency gains worth the headache and possible danger of a higher V system? Not sure yet but i read of a split 48+ and 48- combined to 96 with a common "neutral" ... sorta like house 240v split into x2 120v? I think that's how I understood it, just a thought, honestly a little out of my expertise level currently. But I'm just learning 😁

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Monday, March 11, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

As a follow-up regarding the gear reduction - it seems to me the formula used by Thunderstruck is very much aimed at monohulls...I'm not sure how many large cats they've sold kits to. Having 2 hulls and 2 motors seems to me to make that equation even more complicated so I'm leery of trying to plug our numbers in to their form as a way of deciding what gear reduction to order. And he was also suggesting the 96v 24kw motors, which seems like massive overkill. As much as I like everything they have to offer, I'm just not sure their thinking aligns to a cat as well as it does a mono.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Hey Matt,

My plan for the pack is x32 Eve 280 or 304 3.2v cells - x2 16-cell series run parallel as a single pack, so roughly 600 amp hours @ 48v (28.8 kw hours) shared by the two motors. Our house bank is x3 12v 300 amp hour LifeP04 batteries, so they'll just continue being what they are. More than necessary if I was starting from scratch, but nice insurance if I should have any issues with the pack/charging/motor system - our house bank will still be plenty big while we sort it out and still chargeable by our generator to our house inverter/charger. We live aboard full time, so that's a pretty good thing to have in the hip pocket. I came to the same conclusion that you just said regarding charge sources just after posting that question with just a little research. I'll probably divide our solar into 3 banks with 3 MPPT's and I think we can afford to get about 2000- 2500 watts up there. FWIW, we also are running Autoprop feathering props. They're not in perfect shape, but I think I can rehab them to be pretty solid. I was considering swapping them with new fixed props, but it would be nice to have the flexibility of being able to change prop pitch to dial in our speed/efficiency. The "formula" to figure out what gear reduction we need seems a little ethereal to me, since it hinges on hull speed, which is pretty tough to accurately determine in reality, no matter how many numbers you throw at it. I realize that, at max motor RPM, you want to get your prop speed to spin at the exact speed to theoretically achieve your boats hull speed. But on a boat like ours, that's probably 9+ knots, which seems a ridiculous target. I don't want to burn the kind of juice that would take even if it's possible. Lol. So wouldn't it be better to optimize the reduction for something more in line with real world cruising speeds? Or am I overthinking that too?

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Sunday, March 10, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

You're welcome.

On second thought, maybe bidirectional doesnt make sense. I was thinking (not thinking) you would still have alternators to charge the 12v, duh. Is it possible to reconfigure your 12 v batteries into 48?

All your charging sources should just do their own thing without issue if they are programmed correctly, isn't hard to do. As long as you have a large enough pack which I'm guessing you will, it will be able to take all current you can throw at it. What size 48v pack are you looking at?

Matt Foley

Sunlight Conversions

Perpetual Energy, LLC

201-914-0466

sunlightconversions.com

instagram.com/sunlightconversions/

youtube/sunlightconversions

ABYC Certified Marine

Electrical Technician

On Saturday, March 9, 2024 at 01:11:59 PM EST, Eric via groups.io <sailawayvlog=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Saturday, March 9, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

We have a Calex 3000 bidirectional 48-12 converter, max 3000w. Great idea, but it does need a 48v on high side and 12v on low side before it turns on, so it doesn't take the place of a 12v system - you still need to generate 12v somehow! I'm using a small victron Orion to kickstart the voltage.

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024, 5:11 am Eric via groups.io, <sailawayvlog=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hey Matt, thanks for all that. As always on this group, it's nice to hear the opinions of folks who know what they're doing. Nice website by the way! We do have a rather large LifeP04 house bank that's only a year old - 900 amp hours. I had intended to use a Victron MPPT or a DC to DC converter to charge that from the 48v bank and direct all charging sources to the 48v bank. I hadn't thought of a bi-directional DC converter - I'll have to look into that. My next question is, with multiple charge sources - 2 (maybe 3) solar banks with separate MPPT's as well as the generator, what's the best way to control multiple sources charging the batteries at the same time?

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Hey Matt, thanks for all that. As always on this group, it's nice to hear the opinions of folks who know what they're doing. Nice website by the way! We do have a rather large LifeP04 house bank that's only a year old - 900 amp hours. I had intended to use a Victron MPPT or a DC to DC converter to charge that from the 48v bank and direct all charging sources to the 48v bank. I hadn't thought of a bi-directional DC converter - I'll have to look into that. My next question is, with multiple charge sources - 2 (maybe 3) solar banks with separate MPPT's as well as the generator, what's the best way to control multiple sources charging the batteries at the same time?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.
View/Reply Online (#32594): https://groups.io/g/electricboats/message/32594
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/104744950/3360820
Group Owner: electricboats+owner@groups.io
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/electricboats/leave/6293187/3360820/430022002/xyzzy [newarmyguitar24@gmail.com]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Your gut is correct. 2x12kw at 48v is fine. Your top speed will likely be around 7.5 knots. There are some efficiency gains at 72 or 96v but definitely not worth the hassle, especially on a sailboat. You will need a reduction gear/belt with that motor.

Now that you will have multiple voltages on board start thinking and speaking in watt hours. Amp hours is meaningless without also stating the voltage.

You will want to reconfigure your solar and generator to charge the 48v bank.

If you already have a large lithium setup at 12 volts, you can use a bi-directional DC-DC. Otherwise step down the 48v bank to charge the 12. Over time as equipment needs to get replaced, replace it with a 48 volt version.

Your generator speed will be about 4.5 knots if you max out its charging capabilities.

Matt Foley

Sunlight Conversions

Perpetual Energy, LLC

201-914-0466

sunlightconversions.com

instagram.com/sunlightconversions/

youtube/sunlightconversions

ABYC Certified Marine

Electrical Technician

On Saturday, March 9, 2024 at 09:49:10 AM EST, Eric via groups.io <sailawayvlog=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Okay, I'm just going to keep spinning off my original thread with another tangential question...hope that's okay. This question is regarding the motor "size" to go with...really just the voltage. My boat is a 48' cat at about 15 tons fully loaded. When I consulted Thunderstruck, not having gotten to calculating exact hull speed numbers or anything yet, they were suggesting x2 of the 24kw kits at 96v. That seems like serious overkill to me - after all this isn't a motor yacht, it's still a sailboat. From info on this forum and a few other sources, my gut tells me that the 12kw kit (x2) running at 48v would do the trick. Their description even suggests that this kit is used for boats up to 15 tons - mine is twice that (probably not quite actually), two pretty efficient hulls, and of course I would be using 2 motors, so it seems logical that the 12kw would work. I also have no interest or need to achieve my "hull speed" which is probably over 9 knots. If we get 6-7 knots full out and 3-5 knots at a more efficient power band, that's perfect.

The middle option would be sizing up to 72v (all kits run the same Me1616 motor, kit price is the same) for 18kw per side. A 72v pack seems fairly manageable, though maybe not as easily as 48v. For the same money it would have to be less amp hours than a 48v pack.

So my question is - assuming the 12kw 48v motors are strong enough and the 18kw 72v motors aren't strictly necessary, is there still some benefit to going that route, but with less amp hours, money definitely being an object?

Thanks...I'm probably overthinking it. But I've definitely gotten into more trouble in my life underthinking things. Lol.

Additional note - as mentioned somewhere above, we'll be running about 2000w of solar and a 6kw generator as well.

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

[Edited Message Follows]

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Friday, March 8, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

[Edited Message Follows]

On a sidenote, manufacturing parts like this is really straightforward. Just measure accurately, watch some YouTube on how to use CAD software, libreCAD is open source and free. Design your parts and upload to a platform like sendcutsend.com and choose what material you want and they cut it and mail it out promptly.

Comes in handy for many boat projects.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

I’m running same motors on my 12m/39’6” power cat. I have a 48v/1,000AH pack with Winston 1,000AH cells.

1. Going for 48v/600AH pack makes sense - you should be able to power your domestic loads plus propulsion OK. More is better than less. If you can find 600AH cells, you make installation simpler

2. I see no value motoring with a single motor - electric motors are efficient at low RPMs - only by experimenting can you determine any power savings by using only one motor.

3 install as much solar as space and budget permit

4 The Chargery BMS from AliExpress is a economical solution that uses external contractors for charge bus (solar, etc.) and load bus (motors, inverter, dc/dc charger/power supply, etc.). My load bus is 500A - charge bus less. Chargery also has a matching shore charger and a “slow-start” module to prevent contactors from welding closed (if there is an inverter on the load bus). Victron makes components that communicate with each other and is an equally good solution

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Thanks all! Some good solutions and good points there. Great to see some of that up close. Somewhat unrelated question (though they're all really related) regarding batteries. My plan at the moment for this cat is a pair of ME1616s (as part of the Thunderstruck kits) which I plan to run at 48v. I'm trying to decide how many amp hours of battery power I should shoot for. I've looked at the spec sheets on the motor, but I'm not sure if I'm interpreting it correctly regarding power consumption. I'd like to run a single battery pack (unless there are good reasons I shouldn't), which I'll also charge my house batteries with using an MPPT or DC to DC converter.

My thought was 32 of the LF304 Eve cells. So two parallel 48v, 304 ah banks, resulting in 608 ah bank to run both ME1616 motors. Keeping in mind this is a sailboat and we very much intend to sail as much as possible, mostly long passages...is that 608 amp hours overkill? Other than maneuvering, we'll probably spend most motoring time with just one motor. We'll have about 2000 watts of solar as well, plus a 6kw generator. Hoping for but not expecting a little regen while sailing as well as through the unused motor when motoring. I realize "how much battery power do I need" is very subjective, but I welcome all opinions since I really just don't know.

Thanks again!

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Wednesday, March 6, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Great job. I plan for something similar, so really appreciate you sharing.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

A very fine installation Jesper! Well done.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-03-06 10:51 pm, jesper.malmberg86@gmail.com wrote:

I kept the old throttle body and throttle cable but removed the shifter cable. As the throttle moves in the same direction whether or not in forward or reverse (on a diesel) I had a bracket fabricated and removed the funny-shaped one (don't have a picture of it but added one from the internet). With the new bracket the cable moves from neutral detent forward and aft. The detent is a bit 'firm' so a lot of the time I push the little button on the side which was used to just rev the engine without going into gear on the diesel. Some pictures attached.

Had the wig-wag-style throttle from TS been available when I did my conversion I would probably have gone with that. The benefit of the current setup is that all electronics is below in the engine compartment.

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Yes, the detent in the Curtis throttle is a bit light to me and there isn't a detent in my lever control on the pedestal. Of course you have a wee little knob like on a transistor radio to control the motor but I think a 6 ton boat should have an appropriately large and solid feeling control lever. I have the lever but need some more heft on the feel. And the lockout at OFF would be helpful especially with a feathering prop that could be damaged by too fast a shift from FWD to REV. Of course the controller can be programmed to soften that with the acceleration curves but Sevcon doesn't make that easy to do without proprietary interface hardware and software. But that's a different issue.

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-03-06 8:46 am, Eric via groups.io wrote:

Thanks Dan, just seeing the Curtis in detail clears that up for me. So it sounds like, other than needing a more solid detent for neutral, the action on it is pretty smooth then? I'll probably need to buy a new set of dual lever/dual fuction throttle controls since the port side of my current one is pretty hinky. Hopefully I can see a few in person and find one with a really solid neutral detent. Appreciate the info!

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

I kept the old throttle body and throttle cable but removed the shifter cable. As the throttle moves in the same direction whether or not in forward or reverse (on a diesel) I had a bracket fabricated and removed the funny-shaped one (don't have a picture of it but added one from the internet). With the new bracket the cable moves from neutral detent forward and aft. The detent is a bit 'firm' so a lot of the time I push the little button on the side which was used to just rev the engine without going into gear on the diesel. Some pictures attached.

Had the wig-wag-style throttle from TS been available when I did my conversion I would probably have gone with that. The benefit of the current setup is that all electronics is below in the engine compartment.

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Thanks Dan, just seeing the Curtis in detail clears that up for me. So it sounds like, other than needing a more solid detent for neutral, the action on it is pretty smooth then? I'll probably need to buy a new set of dual lever/dual fuction throttle controls since the port side of my current one is pretty hinky. Hopefully I can see a few in person and find one with a really solid neutral detent. Appreciate the info!

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

I have the Curtis throttle and connected it by Morse-type cable to the original diesel gear shift lever on the steering pedestal. Single cable. Original shifting configuration was FWD-Neutral-REV. The Curtis is basically the same FWD-OFF-REV. There is a detent for OFF and I can feel that in the lever at the pedestal but it is not very pronounced and can be a bit difficult to find in some conditions. I plan to fabricate something that makes the feel of the detent bigger but for now it functions and I have other more pressing issues. I think ideally I would like something that locks in to the OFF position with a release that I have to engage to move the lever from OFF to either direction. Something like what you have on the auto transmission shifter in a car.

I used the original gear shift lever because it says FWD and REV on it witch matches the function of the Curtis unit better than the Slow/Fast of the original throttle lever. I had to adapt to that function being on the other side of the pedestal. But that was made easier by removing the other lever.

Some photos here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_control_wiring.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2024-03-05 9:15 am, Eric via groups.io wrote:

Hey all,

As mentioned in my earlier post, we're converting our 30-year old 48' cat to electric using a Thunderstruck kit (s)...long way to go, still in the planning phase. I have a question regarding throttle/shift control at the helm. What are folks using to do this? The Thunderstruck kit comes with the option of a Curtis ET-134 directional throttle if you choose to use your current control station that was used with the diesels. Having not hooked one of these up, I'm just curious how that works? Does it accept the 2 cables in the exact same way? Obviously there's no gearbox, but the motor does need to get the signal to spin either forward or in reverse and how fast.

Again, not seeing the ET-134 in front of me AND never have dug into a throttle control body yet to see how it hooks up, I'm just curious how that works. I'm probably overthinking it. Or have you used other forms of control at the helm to better effect? Keeping in mind also that mine needs to be a dual station since there will (eventually) be two electric motors. I of course just want the smoothest control possible from the helm to the motors with as little garbage in the middle mucking things up.

Thanks!

Tuesday, March 5, 2024

[electricboats] Throttle control head

Hey all,

As mentioned in my earlier post, we're converting our 30-year old 48' cat to electric using a Thunderstruck kit (s)...long way to go, still in the planning phase. I have a question regarding throttle/shift control at the helm. What are folks using to do this? The Thunderstruck kit comes with the option of a Curtis ET-134 directional throttle if you choose to use your current control station that was used with the diesels. Having not hooked one of these up, I'm just curious how that works? Does it accept the 2 cables in the exact same way? Obviously there's no gearbox, but the motor does need to get the signal to spin either forward or in reverse and how fast.

Again, not seeing the ET-134 in front of me AND never have dug into a throttle control body yet to see how it hooks up, I'm just curious how that works. I'm probably overthinking it. Or have you used other forms of control at the helm to better effect? Keeping in mind also that mine needs to be a dual station since there will (eventually) be two electric motors. I of course just want the smoothest control possible from the helm to the motors with as little garbage in the middle mucking things up.

Thanks!

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Friday, March 1, 2024

Re: [electricboats] long-tail boats

https://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/temo-electric-outboard-motor-tested-71589

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 1:51 PM Steve Bull <steve.bull@gmail.com> wrote:

John, Great thought with a notion to "mount the motor with a belt drive to
the propeller shaft, so you can relatively cheaply adjust the "gear"
ratio to match the propeller for best efficiency and performance."

I look forward to reading more on this tread.

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 2:59 AM John Kohnen <jkohnen@boat-links.com> wrote:
Where are you located, Mogjib? I assume you want to replace the gas
engine of an existing longtail setup with an electric motor, on a boat
type common in your locality. Many such boats are long, narrow and
canoe-like, and can be pushed very easily to decent speeds. Great
candidates for electric power. :o) As long as "decent speed" is fast
enough for you. <g> A friend of mine is planning to experiment with
electric power on a proa he built decades ago, though it will probably
end up with two outriggers and become more of a bangka...

As someone interested in the kinds of boats developed in different parts
of the world I'm looking forward to seeing the boat you want to convert,
and I'm sure interested in following your project.

My 2¢ worth of advice is to try to mount the motor with a belt drive to
the propeller shaft, so you can relatively cheaply adjust the "gear"
ratio to match the propeller for best efficiency and performance.
Mounting the electric motor directly to the propeller shaft, like the
gas motor, would be much simpler, but you'd have to try different
propellers until you find the one that works best. Though there are
calculations to help find a suitable propeller there still seems to be
some magic involved. ;o)

On 2/27/2024 10:20 PM, Mogjib Salek wrote:
> Hi Kev,
>
> How long would be a « short ride »? I need also a cost estimate! Any tip?
>
> Thank you all for your help!!
>
> On Wed 28 Feb 2024 at 01:13, Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com
> <mailto:captainyoung@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> If I understand correctly, you want to use the design of long tail
> boats like this, but you want to switch from a gas engine to an
> electric motor:
> https://www.mdpi.com/wevj/wevj-12-00036/article_deploy/html/images/wevj-12-00036-g001.png

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
School days, I believe, are the unhappiest in the whole span of human
existence. They are full of dull, unintelligible tasks, new and
unpleasant ordinances, brutal violations of common sense and common
decency. (H. L. Mencken)

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

[electricboats] Practical Boat Owner article about our first hop

Hello, all! A flood tide raises all boats, so I hope you'll be glad to see this link to the article PBO commissioned from us after we did our conversion and got as far as the Azores from the US.

https://www.pbo.co.uk/cruising/electric-cruising-yacht-to-the-azores-84074

We're on a Baba 30 sailboat and went with an Electric Yacht QuietTorque 10.0, so a lot of folks on this site won't need our technical data motor-wise. We made our own LiFePO4 pack with Eve cells and a JK BMS. If you're interested in our figures and findings and installation process, etc, etc, most of our Patreon posts aren't paywalled and there's an option to be a "free member" so that you can see the info without paying. We'd love the support, of course, but we don't want to slow the spread of information about going electric. S/V SN-E Cetacea's Patreon Page

And, of course, I'm happy to talk about any of that here too!

Posting this link on various Facebook groups got me in some less-than-good-faith arguments that have me a little raw. I don't expect you-all to have that kind of desire to tear someone down. If you come at me in a way that feels disrespectful, I'll try to hold onto my patience but I'm afraid it's starting to wear thin. Thanks in advance for kind critique and/or open questioning.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

T-Pain Is On A Boat

Tuesday, March 26, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Monday, March 11, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Sunday, March 10, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Saturday, March 9, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Friday, March 8, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Wednesday, March 6, 2024

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Re: [electricboats] Throttle control head

Tuesday, March 5, 2024

[electricboats] Throttle control head

Friday, March 1, 2024

Re: [electricboats] long-tail boats

[electricboats] Practical Boat Owner article about our first hop

Followers

Blog Archive

About Me