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I have that exact Westinghouse generator at home to save my ice cream when the power goes out. Decent unit. Access to the carb for cleaning could be better? I had to disassemble it to clean it out after the unit sat un-used with gas left in it and the carb became fouled. Easy enough fix once I got to the carb. Would be better if the gas cutoff didn't also shut off the motor so you could run the carb dry.
I had intended to try it on the boat to see how fast I could motor with it running through the charger and at zero draw from the batteries but I never got around to it. I plan to do it after spring launch. Maybe I'll have some data by the end of May. It can supply more power than I can use through my 1500W charger.
Another thing to consider is motor sailing. It greatly extends range. I do have some data on that from last summer. Should be quite relevant to you with same boat though the prop match is a very important factor.
Motor Sailing Data Point Sunday September 17, 2023
Pearson 10M, 12,500 lbs, 18" 3 blade prop, 3:1 reduction, full main and 100% headsail
Wind S 5-8 diminishing to 0-2, shifting to N 0-2, building to 7-10, Waves <2
TWA 126, TWS 7.1, BSP 5.2, Watts 1024, RPM 1238 (prop RPM 412)
Estimated range 70 miles at this rate and conditions.
What is your AC charging setup?
Sodus to Sackets is 55 nmi. Seems like a manageable single day to me. I would never expect to motor the whole way. I would head out a couple hours before dawn and expect to average 5 knots. In a couple hrs before sunset. Any wind direction but NE which would make it a beat. A good small craft advisory with west wind would make a quick trip of it with perhaps enough boat speed to do regen. In fact I would probably wait for a day when it was blowing 20 to 25 from the NW if I could. But that's just me. I seek out those conditions and I am properly rigged to handle them.
Dan Pfeifffer
Hi Dan,
Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!
So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator
I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.
I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.
Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –
I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!
Thanks again,
Scott
From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.
The answer to your question is (of course), it depends. What is the output capacity of your AC charging system? The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output? (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?) You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power. That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output. If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit. You can't get more through the charger. So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.
You have speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is. If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity. For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots. Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs). You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries.
You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use? My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input. If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts. So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts. These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator.
But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds. Mainly heat. Can your motor run at that output level continuously? That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor. It can. The 10kW? Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation.
My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board. Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process. Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling. I would consider a propane powered unit. Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator. A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me. And these generators are strictly for above deck use. Same for the fuel storage.
Dan Pfeiffer
More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm
More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htmOn 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:
Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:
I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH.
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip.
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ?
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?
Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -
Thanks,
Hi Dan,
Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!
So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator
I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.
I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.
Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –
I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!
Thanks again,
Scott
From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.
The answer to your question is (of course), it depends. What is the output capacity of your AC charging system? The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output? (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?) You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power. That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output. If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit. You can't get more through the charger. So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.
You have speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is. If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity. For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots. Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs). You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries.
You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use? My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input. If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts. So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts. These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator.
But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds. Mainly heat. Can your motor run at that output level continuously? That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor. It can. The 10kW? Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation.
My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.
As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board. Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process. Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling. I would consider a propane powered unit. Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator. A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me. And these generators are strictly for above deck use. Same for the fuel storage.
Dan Pfeiffer
More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm
More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm
On 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:
Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:
I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH.
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip.
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ?
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?
Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -
Thanks,
Hi Dan,
Thanks very much for replying and once again thanks for your 10M page – a superb reference that I'm using all the time now!
So it looks like I have a decent line on a Westinghouse iGEN2500 which is 2,200 W output for $600. https://westinghouse.com/products/igen2500-inverter-generator
I do need to get a generator in the next few months because, though I don't want to be using it much, my boat will come out of storage in April or early May and the marina it is presently at will only give me about 2 weeks of slip time since they are full and I won't be there for the summer. I did find a marina in Saket's Harbor and it is about a 2-3 day trip from Sodus Bay to Saket's Harbor. Due to these considerations and unpredictability of the weather and crew availability around then, I plan to go via Oswego where there is a town dock with overnight slips that have power and I can recharge fully there as needed. Still I want to have backup onboard even though we will sail as much as possible and the trip is a favorable one for travel by sail.
I don't plan to use this very much but want to have it at the ready just in case I get stuck really needing it.
Down the road there will be a few passages where it will be needed – St. Lawrence Seaway, Detroit River – for all these I am hoping that it may be possible to split the trip in half, thirds or quarters for the power intensive section and just plan to recharge whenever possible. One of the folks at the marina my boat is at went on and on and on about the Georgian Islands – looks super for when I am retired in a few years and have the time to get my boat up there and back in a season or so –
I am sure I'll have some more questions about the 10M. I have to reconnect the water system in mine so that is my main item aside from fixing the anchor light. Very much looking forward to spring!
Thanks again,
Scott
From: electricboats@groups.io <electricboats@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dan Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 9:37 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.
The answer to your question is (of course), it depends. What is the output capacity of your AC charging system? The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output? (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?) You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power. That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output. If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit. You can't get more through the charger. So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.
You have speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is. If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity. For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots. Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs). You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries.
You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use? My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input. If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts. So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts. These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator.
But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds. Mainly heat. Can your motor run at that output level continuously? That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor. It can. The 10kW? Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation.
My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.
As to the generator, I would rather NOT have a gas powered generator on board. Refueling underway from a gas can sounds like a sloppy process. Gas fumes can accumulate in the bilge though that can be mitigated with careful handling. I would consider a propane powered unit. Same fume issues but swapping out a new propane tank seems a lot easier at sea than re-filling the gas tank on the generator. A little less output on propane Vs gas but the handling advantages seem worth it to me. And these generators are strictly for above deck use. Same for the fuel storage.
Dan Pfeiffer
More on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm
More on gensets:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm
On 2023-12-26 1:46 pm, Scott E Erdman via groups.io wrote:
Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:
I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH.
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip.
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ?
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?
Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -
Thanks,
The answer to your question is (of course), it depends. What is the output capacity of your AC charging system? The gas generators you are considering are 120VAC output? (The 5,000 watt may have a 220VAC output?) You will be delivering the power to the batteries or the motor through the battery charger that you would plug in to shore power. That means you have a max power limit that is set by the charger output. If your charger output is 1500 watts max that's your limit. You can't get more through the charger. So you can't use any generator capacity beyond what the charger can put through to the battteries/motor.
You have speed limit on generator of whatever the max output of the charger is. If it's 1500 watts that's all you can deliver from the genset through the charger regardless of the genset output capacity. For your boat (assuming a well matched prop) that going to be about 4 knots. Probably a bit less but I don't know the details of the installation (reduction, prop specs). You can go faster but you'll be drawing the additional required power from the batteries.
You can increase the charger capacity but there is no point in having a generator that has capacity several times what you can actually use? My charger (Thunderstruck EV TSM2500) puts out 1500 watts with 120VAC input. If I had 220VAC it could put out 2500 watts. So a 220 VAC generator of 2500 watts could in theory get me motoring at about 5kts. These chargers can be paralleled and two of them would get me to 5000 watts and 6kts continuous with a 220VAC generator.
But there are some other limits as you start to try to motor at higher speeds. Mainly heat. Can your motor run at that output level continuously? That's why I went with the 12kW liquid cooled motor. It can. The 10kW? Not sure what it's limits are but its quite a bit lower for continuous operation.
My project (same boat) is still developing and I thought I would want about 10kW of generator capacity to get continuous motoring speeds of 6+ knots (need that to transit Detroit river in reasonable time) but after running the electric drive for a few seasons I think I would be fine with 5 or 6kW.
Hey Folks - I apologize for not maybe having all the specifics needed for this but related to this thread and a somewhat more simple question:
I did buy the Pearson 10M that had been converted to 10 kW Thunderstruck with 2x24 x 2 48V bank w/ 196 AH.
Presently there is no other way on the boat to recharge other than plugged in on a slip.
Looking at everything, I figure that purchasing a gas generator is the best insurance on expanding range and dealing with extended draw conditions (currents, etc)
So my question is this - does it make a big difference whether the generator I get is 2,000 vs. 5000 W ?
I am looking on Craigslist and I can find quite a few used 5,000 W generators for good prices - I expect space is a consideration as well. I guess my main question is what would I gain from getting a 5,000 W generator vs. the smaller, more portable and perhaps more quiet 2,000W ones?
Trying to take care of some of these purchases this winter -
Thanks,
If you’re thinking a portable gas generator, I like the Harbor Freight 3.5kW inverter unit. Quiet. Electric start. Wait for a 25% off coupon.
I am just now putting together a 48v charger to maximize the available current (3.0kW) of the generator. I’m using a pair of 24v chargers in series.
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Great advice.
My 30kwh pack batteries (lithium ion, 20P(1.5kwh, 42vnom)) are only connected to a charging system after reaching somewhere between 33 and 36v, and then only charging overnight to 48v (max. batt spec is 49.1v). I manually disconnect the next day. Going further, I do not totally trust BMS cards (and for good reason) and so I only power them up maybe once every 6-18months to check cell balance across the 240 cell pairs. Even with that, I have heard from at least one European owner of THINK cars with these batteries/BMS indicate to me that he has seen even unpowered BMS cards drain a cell pair. So there's that risk also. Further on the non-trusting side, the software I wrote to communicate with 20 BMS cards and manage all the balancing only enables balancing on one of the 20 module strings at a time---only the worst one. This has the advantages of minimizing the number of bypass circuits that are enabled and lowering the risk that they will degrade quicker or worse, that one of them might get stuck ON. Since all the modules are in parallel, as a string is bypass balancing, the other parallel strings will supply that string with current, maintaining the string voltage and only slowly dropping the pack voltage---far better than bypassing ALL the high cells in the pack to bring them all down to the low voltage. Works like a charm.
Anyway, stay safe.
-MT
From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Harley Clark
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2023 5:22 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Parallel LiFePO4 Packs
I don't know if it is general knowledge that fully charged LFPO batteries must be disconnected from a charging source. Lately I have heard of some unexplained fires in boats that are docked while their owners are absent and have wondered if the batteries were being over charged by solar panels or wind. The BMS should be set up to physically disconnect the batteries.
This can be complicated by solar and wind if these sources must be redirected to another load path to consume this unwanted charging current.
Hopefully, Everyone is hearing old news
On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 10:07 AM THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:
wow, Reuben ... ! A full MegaWatt hours of capacity?!?! According to one source, that's enough to power the average household of 5-weeks!!
What is your cruising range on motor alone? Must be close somewhere around 70 Nautical Miles.
[-tv]
