T-Pain Is On A Boat: March 2023

Thursday, March 23, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

+1 to this - I just wasn't going to plug it because I'm a lithium battery dealer ;-)

If you can start with a smallish lithium bank you will save on hassle, frustration, and accessories.

On Mar 23, 2023, at 10:45 AM, twowheelinguy via groups.io <twowheelinguy=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I would concur about skipping the AGM batteries unless you already have them and even then I would consider switching straight to lithium. Take it from someone who ran lead acid for 10 years and over 5000 miles, lead pails in comparison to lithium and it has gotten so cheap now it is almost on par with lead. Amazon sells 100amp hour, 12v batteries with bms and a charger for less than $300 that can be series to 48V and the ones I bought seem to work great. If freezing is an issue make sure you spec one with freeze protection and consider getting 8 of them to make a parallel bank of two four packs because the bms limits you to 100 amp output.

If you want to step up to a little higher quality, Signature Solar has a very nice 100amp, 48V, waterproof series with a whopping 5 kWhrs of usable energy for about $1600 each but again I'd consider getting two in parallel because of the 100amp limitation. I've got both systems on the Arc and performance wise I can't tell the difference but I'm guessing the cheap batteries won't last as long. Time will tell but I'm telling you, don't waste your money on AGMs because unless you need cold cranking amps for a big ICE, lead is dead, imo.

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 09:53:52 AM EDT, julienweiller via groups.io <julienweiller=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Greetings!
Looking for recommendations to go hybrid (series, not parallel) .
I will need a 48 v electric propulsion plus adequate diesel generator/range extender for a 15000 pound full keel 30 footer sailboat, 24"6" waterline, hull speed 6.5 kn (Baba 30).
Getting rid of actual engine, a 3 cylinders 30 hp diesel.

Plan is to start with 4 x 12v 150 Ah AGM (just enough to go dock down the basin)

Switch to high kWh lithium in the future for ocean sailing
Will also add solar to the equation.

I am looking for a diesel generator/range extender that could pretty much keep the batteries up while motoring.

So, that's a lot of questions at once:
1 motor ?
2 compatible AGM/lithium controller ?
3 diesel generator?
4 solar?
5 lithium batteries?
6 compatible with all the above +220/110 charger?
7 BMS added if not battery integrated?

Sorry if this is a repeat question but it's 2023 and it seems that technology is fast evolving!

Pretty please: no 96 nor 72 volts suggestions I am sticking with 48, 52 max.

All best and in advance, much thanks!

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

I would concur about skipping the AGM batteries unless you already have them and even then I would consider switching straight to lithium. Take it from someone who ran lead acid for 10 years and over 5000 miles, lead pails in comparison to lithium and it has gotten so cheap now it is almost on par with lead. Amazon sells 100amp hour, 12v batteries with bms and a charger for less than $300 that can be series to 48V and the ones I bought seem to work great. If freezing is an issue make sure you spec one with freeze protection and consider getting 8 of them to make a parallel bank of two four packs because the bms limits you to 100 amp output.

If you want to step up to a little higher quality, Signature Solar has a very nice 100amp, 48V, waterproof series with a whopping 5 kWhrs of usable energy for about $1600 each but again I'd consider getting two in parallel because of the 100amp limitation. I've got both systems on the Arc and performance wise I can't tell the difference but I'm guessing the cheap batteries won't last as long. Time will tell but I'm telling you, don't waste your money on AGMs because unless you need cold cranking amps for a big ICE, lead is dead, imo.

Capt. Carter

www.shipofimagination.com

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 09:53:52 AM EDT, julienweiller via groups.io <julienweiller=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Greetings!

Looking for recommendations to go hybrid (series, not parallel) .

I will need a 48 v electric propulsion plus adequate diesel generator/range extender for a 15000 pound full keel 30 footer sailboat, 24"6" waterline, hull speed 6.5 kn (Baba 30).

Getting rid of actual engine, a 3 cylinders 30 hp diesel.

Plan is to start with 4 x 12v 150 Ah AGM (just enough to go dock down the basin)

Switch to high kWh lithium in the future for ocean sailing

Will also add solar to the equation.

I am looking for a diesel generator/range extender that could pretty much keep the batteries up while motoring.

So, that's a lot of questions at once:
1 motor ?
2 compatible AGM/lithium controller ?
3 diesel generator?
4 solar?
5 lithium batteries?
6 compatible with all the above +220/110 charger?
7 BMS added if not battery integrated?

Sorry if this is a repeat question but it's 2023 and it seems that technology is fast evolving!

Pretty please: no 96 nor 72 volts suggestions I am sticking with 48, 52 max.

All best and in advance, much thanks!

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

I'll second Dan - I love my 10kw in a similar size and weight and occasionally wish it had just a little more oomph, especially in strong tidal curents against the wind. It's enough to be safe, but requires more vigilance than if it just WENT.

On Mar 23, 2023, at 9:03 AM, Dan Pfeiffer <dan@pfeiffer.net> wrote:

I'll second the suggestion for the Thunderstruck 12kW kit. I used that in my Pearson 10M (12,400 lbs) with great success. With the 10kW motor I would be running at 70-8% for standard cruise.   It's more like 50-60% with the 12kW. It's not using less power but it is at a more moderate load for the components in the system. Also I have more reserve power for the occasional needs (like a choppy entrance). The 12kW is liquid cooled with adds some complexity but I think it's the only way to get reasonable sustained cruising speed in a boat this size or larger. If you're content with being constrained to 3-4 knots then the 10kW might do. But you'll be pushing it hard to get more speed if needed.

If you already have the AGM batteries then by all means use them. If not don't waste your money. Go straight to LiFePo4. Over the lifetime of the batteries they will be cheaper. And your usable capacity (and range) will be almost double for the same size AH bank.    I built my own 48v from 16 cells in series. There are a lot more off-the-shelf options around now. But the cost savings would still lead me to build.   See details on my battery here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_battery.htm

Lots of details on my installation here including component choices, reduction drive, cooling system, costs, performance...
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive.htm

I got a 2nd 12kW motor to use as a generator with a 3cyl Kubota diesel I have (18hp) but have not built the genset yet. The diesel is very compact and I figured I could get a 10-12kW 48VDC generator from the combo. After 2 seasons of use I think a smaller genset would do fine. Maybe 5-6kW. I could motor at decent cruising speed with that.   Your use may be different.   Genset info:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm

I like to think of the electric drive system in terms of limits. You run into limits everywhere in the process. Understanding them will guide you in the selection of components. I have tried to organize my thoughts on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm

Good luck, we're all counting on you...

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2023-03-22 6:24 pm, julienweiller via groups.io wrote:

Greetings!
Looking for recommendations to go hybrid (series, not parallel) .
I will need a 48 v electric propulsion plus adequate diesel generator/range extender for a 15000 pound full keel 30 footer sailboat, 24"6" waterline, hull speed 6.5 kn (Baba 30).
Getting rid of actual engine, a 3 cylinders 30 hp diesel.

Plan is to start with 4 x 12v 150 Ah AGM (just enough to go dock down the basin)

Switch to high kWh lithium in the future for ocean sailing
Will also add solar to the equation.

I am looking for a diesel generator/range extender that could pretty much keep the batteries up while motoring.

So, that's a lot of questions at once:
1 motor ?
2 compatible AGM/lithium controller ?
3 diesel generator?
4 solar?
5 lithium batteries?
6 compatible with all the above +220/110 charger?
7 BMS added if not battery integrated?

Sorry if this is a repeat question but it's 2023 and it seems that technology is fast evolving!

Pretty please: no 96 nor 72 volts suggestions I am sticking with 48, 52 max.

All best and in advance, much thanks!

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

I'll second the suggestion for the Thunderstruck 12kW kit. I used that in my Pearson 10M (12,400 lbs) with great success. With the 10kW motor I would be running at 70-8% for standard cruise. It's more like 50-60% with the 12kW. It's not using less power but it is at a more moderate load for the components in the system. Also I have more reserve power for the occasional needs (like a choppy entrance). The 12kW is liquid cooled with adds some complexity but I think it's the only way to get reasonable sustained cruising speed in a boat this size or larger. If you're content with being constrained to 3-4 knots then the 10kW might do. But you'll be pushing it hard to get more speed if needed.

If you already have the AGM batteries then by all means use them. If not don't waste your money. Go straight to LiFePo4. Over the lifetime of the batteries they will be cheaper. And your usable capacity (and range) will be almost double for the same size AH bank. I built my own 48v from 16 cells in series. There are a lot more off-the-shelf options around now. But the cost savings would still lead me to build. See details on my battery here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_battery.htm

Lots of details on my installation here including component choices, reduction drive, cooling system, costs, performance...
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive.htm

I got a 2nd 12kW motor to use as a generator with a 3cyl Kubota diesel I have (18hp) but have not built the genset yet. The diesel is very compact and I figured I could get a 10-12kW 48VDC generator from the combo. After 2 seasons of use I think a smaller genset would do fine. Maybe 5-6kW. I could motor at decent cruising speed with that. Your use may be different. Genset info:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/diesel_genset.htm

I like to think of the electric drive system in terms of limits. You run into limits everywhere in the process. Understanding them will guide you in the selection of components. I have tried to organize my thoughts on limits here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_limits.htm

Good luck, we're all counting on you...

Dan Pfeiffer

On 2023-03-22 6:24 pm, julienweiller via groups.io wrote:

Greetings!

Looking for recommendations to go hybrid (series, not parallel) .

I will need a 48 v electric propulsion plus adequate diesel generator/range extender for a 15000 pound full keel 30 footer sailboat, 24”6“ waterline, hull speed 6.5 kn (Baba 30).

Getting rid of actual engine, a 3 cylinders 30 hp diesel.

Plan is to start with 4 x 12v 150 Ah AGM (just enough to go dock down the basin)

Switch to high kWh lithium in the future for ocean sailing

Will also add solar to the equation.

I am looking for a diesel generator/range extender that could pretty much keep the batteries up while motoring.

So, that’s a lot of questions at once:
1 motor ?
2 compatible AGM/lithium controller ?
3 diesel generator?
4 solar?
5 lithium batteries?
6 compatible with all the above +220/110 charger?
7 BMS added if not battery integrated?

Sorry if this is a repeat question but it’s 2023 and it seems that technology is fast evolving!

Pretty please: no 96 nor 72 volts suggestions I am sticking with 48, 52 max.

All best and in advance, much thanks!

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

[Edited Message Follows]

I went with the Thunderstruck 10Kw kit in my Kirby 30, it's working great. The boat's lighter than yours (~6,000 lbs) so you'd probably want to go with their 12KW kit, the only issue is that it's liquid cooled.

I'm using 3 Dakota Lithium 48V/96 Ah batteries with Victron MPPT controllers and 6 110W panels on my deck when I'm not using the boat. I race the boat 1-2 nights/week and daysail one day on the weekend, I found that I only needed to charge the batteries once per month.

I went with LIFEPO4 since I use my boat mostly for racing and was not into taking the weight penalty. When we brought the boat from Bowmanville to Toronto in light winds last year we used about 70% of the battery capacity (motoring at 4-5 knots for 9 hours in flat water). Unless you're doing a ton of long distance cruising, I'd hold off on the diesel generator.

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Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

I went with the Thunderstruck 10Kw kit in my Kirby 30. The boat's lighter than your but it's working great. You'd probably want to go with their 12KW kit, the only issue is that it's liquid cooled.

I'm using 3 Dakota Lithium 48V/96 Ah batteries with Victron MPPT controllers and 6 110W panels on my deck when I'm not using the boat. I race the boat 1-2 nights/week and daysail one day on the weekend, I found that I only needed to charge the batteries once per month.

I went with LIFEPO4 since I use my boat mostly for racing and was not into taking the weight penalty. When we brought the boat from Bowmanville to Toronto in light winds last year we used about 70% of the battery capacity (motoring at 4-5 knots for 9 hours in flat water). Unless you're doing a ton of long distance cruising, I'd hold off on the diesel generator.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2023

[electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Greetings!

Looking for recommendations to go hybrid (series, not parallel) .

I will need a 48 v electric propulsion plus adequate diesel generator/range extender for a 15000 pound full keel 30 footer sailboat, 24”6“ waterline, hull speed 6.5 kn (Baba 30).

Getting rid of actual engine, a 3 cylinders 30 hp diesel.

Plan is to start with 4 x 12v 150 Ah AGM (just enough to go dock down the basin)

Switch to high kWh lithium in the future for ocean sailing

Will also add solar to the equation.

I am looking for a diesel generator/range extender that could pretty much keep the batteries up while motoring.

So, that’s a lot of questions at once:
1 motor ?
2 compatible AGM/lithium controller ?
3 diesel generator?
4 solar?
5 lithium batteries?
6 compatible with all the above +220/110 charger?
7 BMS added if not battery integrated?

Sorry if this is a repeat question but it’s 2023 and it seems that technology is fast evolving!

Pretty please: no 96 nor 72 volts suggestions I am sticking with 48, 52 max.

All best and in advance, much thanks!

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Monday, March 20, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

I'm glad to see someone doing the math, but it's still looking at the issue from the opposite side as me. I'm sitting at anchor in Man Of War Harbor in Key West, terribly open to the north and with winds at about 20 gusting higher, and my Rutland 1200 is doing the job almost exactly like you're describing.

But the job it does, for me, is more often about lesser winds. It provides a charge of between 2 and 10 amps, most of the time, and 0-1 amp in even in very light winds because it's designed for a low start speed. It maxes out sooner than some, but who wants to listen to a wind generator when you're already freaked out by being anchored in such strong winds? That doesn't sound like a lot, but it's 24/7 and that means I continue to (at least) trickle charge while the boats around me are drawing down overnight or on cloudy days. It also means I easily use my chartplotter (with radar, even) all night without deeply drawing down the battery bank I'm on. Yes, we leave it on while sailing. If you have a topping lift for your main, you'll need to assure you don't leave it too slack. Otherwise you're golden.

It makes a big difference in the lifespan of an AGM battery to get a full charge on it. With two banks, I can get one to 100% while using the other and then switch. We have such a good load to charge ratio that we often have them both at 100% at the same time. Our Lifelines AGM batteries are 14 years old and going strong.

I'm going to find out how that translates to 48v charging within the next couple months and I'll be able to speak more specifically to the question at hand, but I'm firmly convinced (as a full time cruiser who has only taken a slip two days out of the last year) that wind power gives my system a robustness that piling on more solar panels will not.

Side note as a person always trying to avoid catastrophic failure and planning on how to handle small ones, I prefer keeping my solar on a larger number of controllers. Redundancy is good, and if a controller goes down I can double the panel up with another (if they're more or less on the same plane with the sun). I wouldn't be comfortable with one Uber controller that could turn an inevitable equipment failure into a tragic one.

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Sunday, March 19, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

What are the voltages of your solar panels and battery bank? I have bough a 48 volt 10 kW thunderstruck motor and now need to figure out how to charge the 48 volt battery bank using my two 12 volt (or 18 volt whatever the maximum output voltage is) solar panels. It seems this boost mppt charge controller could be the answer.

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Saturday, March 18, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

As long as you don't exceed the controllers max wattage you will be fine I use Epever controllers on my panels. One set is 1440 watts the other is 1015. They are about 5 years old and are easy to read and hook up got them on Amazon about $70 each

On Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 4:45 AM SVTwister <yellowchair@gmail.com> wrote:

That boost charge controller from AliExpress looks interesting. Do you use one for each solar panel or can you connect multiple panels to one controller as long as you don't exceed the power rating (looks like they sell 300 W and 600 W versions)?

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Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

That boost charge controller from AliExpress looks interesting. Do you use one for each solar panel or can you connect multiple panels to one controller as long as you don't exceed the power rating (looks like they sell 300 W and 600 W versions)?

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Thursday, March 16, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Hi Jack,

While you could join the negatives as I understand the theory, one answer depends on whether you want to separately measure the current usage via a shunt. You could use separate shunts on the 2 x 48v and 24v, but that's the shunts to buy and monitor.

On Fri, 17 Mar 2023, 12:38 am Jack Agarwal, <yacht.alcazar@gmail.com> wrote:

In my planned design I have two 48v propulsion Lifepo4 banks (one in each hull) and a 24v Lifepo House bank.

The propulsion banks will be grounded by their respective pod motor which will be fixed in the water.

How should I handle the negative cabling? Is it okay or advisable to have a single common negative bus which all banks negatives are connected to?

The 24v house bank is quite far from the propulsion banks, and I plan to charge it with a simple isolated DCDC converter from each propulsion bank. In this case is it necessary to have a common ground between the two banks or can I essentially operate them as two separate systems?

any advice appreciated!
Jack

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Re: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Hi Jack,

You ask some good questions. There's a lot of info here, but you asked, so I'll tell you.

1) Pick a single point on the boat and declare it "ground zero."

2) Now connect each subsystem through one and only one path to that point. Like a tree branches from a single trunk. Use separate 'grounding' conductors. _Not_ the current carrying conductors used for power.

Basically that's it.

Green wires are convention. Bare copper is ok too. The _negative_ side of battery banks should be bonded there according to abyc. I don't mind floating power sources, but see below on over current protection and theory. Any user accessible conductive surfaces (panels, conduit,etc.) should go to ground too through, again, one and only one path.

If you've got a mast (an antenna mast even.) You might want to get that one grounded to the water _not_ through your motor too. If you're out, that's where lightning is going to strike. Bet on it.

Be careful of control signals that have ground for a return conductor too. Ethernet is usually transformer isolated, but simple potentiometer types are suspect. Check it on an ohmmeter. One and only one path to earth from any point so there's no loops.

Ideally, you would not ever wire a conductive 'ground loop,' because changing magnetic fields can induce large currents in conductive loops. You mentioned having two independent 'electrodes' via two separate motors. Technically, there's a loop formed through them and the water....if you connect them. It's a geometry problem. Maybe keep those two particular grounding wires hugging the hull. Pick a point between the two motors? IDK. Minimize the loop area if you can't avoid it, but avoiding is better. You should be good to go with a little thought.

It's not a big deal usually. But floating systems can accumulate charge so you have to give any stray charge a path to return to earth by grounding all systems to at least one electrode. Two electrodes is usually considered superior by inspectors for house wiring...FYI...but they're usually right next to each other too so ...

Moreover, grounding is primarily intended for fire safety, to trip the over current protection devices, which you should have on all your circuits' positive (ungrounded for ac systems) conductors, if something shorts.

So you, you know, don't start an electrical fire.

You probably don't want an electrical fire on a boat, so ground it all and use fuses or breakers on ungrounded conductors...ok?

And don't sweat it.

Unless that is, lightning strikes nearby, in which case you will probably want to hope like hell that everything is grounded _and_ your loop area is minimized :-)

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 08:37:59 AM CDT, Jack Agarwal <yacht.alcazar@gmail.com> wrote:

In my planned design I have two 48v propulsion Lifepo4 banks (one in each hull) and a 24v Lifepo House bank.

The propulsion banks will be grounded by their respective pod motor which will be fixed in the water.

How should I handle the negative cabling? Is it okay or advisable to have a single common negative bus which all banks negatives are connected to?

The 24v house bank is quite far from the propulsion banks, and I plan to charge it with a simple isolated DCDC converter from each propulsion bank. In this case is it necessary to have a common ground between the two banks or can I essentially operate them as two separate systems?

any advice appreciated!
Jack

Re: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

The devil is always in the details. Grounding for home construction is not an option. For boats, historically, like cars, we tend to ground the negative and also tie that to any shore power ground that is brought onboard.

Beyond that, there's APYC and perhaps other rules/guidelines.

Beyond that, there's what you actually have chosen for components---and those can drive you directions you may not have thought about.

Take my boat for example:

DCDC: For 12v cabin power, I chose to use a 36-48v to 12v 30amp DCDC. And while I initially thought I'd have a 12v pack somehow attached to the output of the DCDC. As time went on, that need and even the idea pretty much died and I've never added a battery there (now 20years running). Having said that, I'm guessing I'll add a 5-7ah 12v lithium battery there for kicks sometime soon. Anyway, that's immaterial. The DCDC that I am using is an old GE DCDC probably designed for golf cart or similar use. Now here's the thing: This DCDC does use a common----the PLUS side of Input and Output are shared! So, the 12v minus for my house power is not only NOT grounded to the NEG of the pack, nor is it floating, but rather is 12v less than whatever the Pack+ is at the time.

CONTROLLER: DC brushmotor controllers like those long used for golf carts have similarly driven the motor by sharing the "+" side and switching the battery's "-" side to drive the motor's other lead. So here again, there's no way one of the motor leads can be grounded to pack minus, but indeed it is connected to pack plus (thru fuse, solenoid, switch) during operation.

Anyway, in general, if you can ground the negative side of your pack(s) and ground that to shore power, it is likely advisable. However, there are circumstances and configurations in which doing this not only does not make sense but would be absolutely dangerous.

-Myles T. www.evalbum.dom/492

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jack Agarwal
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2023 12:24 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Well that would be a tiring day! Yikes. Color me convinced that more battery and fuel based generator backup is the way.

On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:19 PM, Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

Sure, you can do it. And it's free. And it will give you power w/o sun.
However, 200watts from a 400watt AIRX is unrealistic. Why?
Power scales with the cube of the windspeed and the 400watt rating is at 24kts as I recall.
P ~ 400*(kts/24)^3
So, for 200watts, you would need: kts = 24*(1/2)^ 1/3 = 19kts
And that's wind speed relative to the gennie of course.
I suppose if you expect to sail for 8hrs in 20-30kt winds the calculation works.

-MT

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ryan Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:39 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Thanks. I guess that gets back to my question: is it safe to run the windmills when you are underway? Googling seems to indicate so?

All the installations I see it looks as if the entire thing is located well out of the way of crew or sheets or sails, but I'm wondering if there are other reasons that it's simply not a good idea?

Very Correct that you don't want an anchorage to be windy, but here in Washington it's not uncommon for evening atavatic winds to come down from the mountains and if you are anchored with the land windward it will blow across the boat but not create uncomfortable rocking near shore.

But also, if on an eight hour sail I can keep a 400w turbine going at 50% capacity, that's 200w/48v * 8h = 33.3ah back into my battery. Only 1/24th my total capacity, but since I haven't been able to fit even 400w of solar panels in a non-shaded location (trouble with ketch rigs - I currently have two small 100w hanging off the stern rails) it's better than having to always find a marina to recharge. I tend to get less than half that power input out of prop regen if sailing above 4.5 kts or against the tidal current. It might also exceed whatever motoring I had to do to get out of the marina or through a countervailing tide etc. I guess if I was always sailing north I could keep solar under the mainsail and it would mostly be well lit. :-). Super interested for the day when we can make sails out out flexible solar material, it will come.

Range under battery is the reason I get anxious about taking this boat on longer trips like the inside passage. I have backups like nobody's business including a bunch of extra batteries, small solar generator, and gasoline generator, but that sort of defeats the point. maybe I should just add another 800ah worth of lithium but that's also another 1000lbs too. I'd have to put them in the bow somewhere to balance the boat.

On Mar 7, 2023, at 18:03, Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com> wrote:

We had an airx. I would not recommend wind power.
Very noisy, only make power in 10 knots plus, and most anchorages are not windy. When it is windy they do make a good amount of power and noise.
Solar worked much better.
Maybe if your in a location with little sun and lots of wind it could be useful. But in my experience in Florida and Bahamas, solar worked very well. Wind was not needed.
I still have the tower/poles and hardware, if anyone is interested.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 8:16 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

Wednesday, March 15, 2023

[electricboats] Lots of questions

I have a Trojan f25 that I converted into a houseboat it. Currently has 2440 watts of solar on the roof and 40 205 Amp hr 6 volt batteries it is currently wired 12 volt but have room to add 24 more batteries to convert to 48. Original boat was rated at 5900 lbs loaded also have room on roof to upgrade to 6000 watts solar what size motor would I need to push it at 5 knots cruising and 10 knots max thanks Rommy

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[electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

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Wednesday, March 8, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Sure, you can do it. And it's free. And it will give you power w/o sun.

However, 200watts from a 400watt AIRX is unrealistic. Why?

Power scales with the cube of the windspeed and the 400watt rating is at 24kts as I recall.

P ~ 400*(kts/24)^3

So, for 200watts, you would need: kts = 24*(1/2)^ 1/3 = 19kts

And that's wind speed relative to the gennie of course.

I suppose if you expect to sail for 8hrs in 20-30kt winds the calculation works.

-MT

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ryan Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:39 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Thanks. I guess that gets back to my question: is it safe to run the windmills when you are underway? Googling seems to indicate so?

All the installations I see it looks as if the entire thing is located well out of the way of crew or sheets or sails, but I'm wondering if there are other reasons that it's simply not a good idea?

Very Correct that you don't want an anchorage to be windy, but here in Washington it's not uncommon for evening atavatic winds to come down from the mountains and if you are anchored with the land windward it will blow across the boat but not create uncomfortable rocking near shore.

But also, if on an eight hour sail I can keep a 400w turbine going at 50% capacity, that's 200w/48v * 8h = 33.3ah back into my battery. Only 1/24th my total capacity, but since I haven't been able to fit even 400w of solar panels in a non-shaded location (trouble with ketch rigs - I currently have two small 100w hanging off the stern rails) it's better than having to always find a marina to recharge. I tend to get less than half that power input out of prop regen if sailing above 4.5 kts or against the tidal current. It might also exceed whatever motoring I had to do to get out of the marina or through a countervailing tide etc. I guess if I was always sailing north I could keep solar under the mainsail and it would mostly be well lit. :-). Super interested for the day when we can make sails out out flexible solar material, it will come.

Range under battery is the reason I get anxious about taking this boat on longer trips like the inside passage. I have backups like nobody's business including a bunch of extra batteries, small solar generator, and gasoline generator, but that sort of defeats the point. maybe I should just add another 800ah worth of lithium but that's also another 1000lbs too. I'd have to put them in the bow somewhere to balance the boat.

On Mar 7, 2023, at 18:03, Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com> wrote:

We had an airx. I would not recommend wind power.
Very noisy, only make power in 10 knots plus, and most anchorages are not windy. When it is windy they do make a good amount of power and noise.
Solar worked much better.
Maybe if your in a location with little sun and lots of wind it could be useful. But in my experience in Florida and Bahamas, solar worked very well. Wind was not needed.
I still have the tower/poles and hardware, if anyone is interested.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 8:16 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

"8ft…It was rather clunky looking on my 27ft boat."

That sounds exactly like my situation when I ran my AIR403 on my boat. I had maybe an 8' galvanized tube that fit the AIR fitting, rotated it vertical from my 26ft boat's cabin, secured it and guy-wired it and plugged 'er in…I remember thinking it was pretty cool. It just was not a quick thing to setup. And just 1 vintage solar panel will put out almost the same power as the AIR403 in a 12kt wind.

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of Kev
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 6:49 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Yes, you can run them under way. The only time you could not run them is in very high winds.

The pole kit I had is 8ft, if I remember correctly. It was rather clunky looking on my 27ft boat.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 9:38 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Thanks. I guess that gets back to my question: is it safe to run the windmills when you are underway? Googling seems to indicate so?

All the installations I see it looks as if the entire thing is located well out of the way of crew or sheets or sails, but I'm wondering if there are other reasons that it's simply not a good idea?

Very Correct that you don't want an anchorage to be windy, but here in Washington it's not uncommon for evening atavatic winds to come down from the mountains and if you are anchored with the land windward it will blow across the boat but not create uncomfortable rocking near shore.

But also, if on an eight hour sail I can keep a 400w turbine going at 50% capacity, that's 200w/48v * 8h = 33.3ah back into my battery. Only 1/24th my total capacity, but since I haven't been able to fit even 400w of solar panels in a non-shaded location (trouble with ketch rigs - I currently have two small 100w hanging off the stern rails) it's better than having to always find a marina to recharge. I tend to get less than half that power input out of prop regen if sailing above 4.5 kts or against the tidal current. It might also exceed whatever motoring I had to do to get out of the marina or through a countervailing tide etc. I guess if I was always sailing north I could keep solar under the mainsail and it would mostly be well lit. :-). Super interested for the day when we can make sails out out flexible solar material, it will come.

Range under battery is the reason I get anxious about taking this boat on longer trips like the inside passage. I have backups like nobody's business including a bunch of extra batteries, small solar generator, and gasoline generator, but that sort of defeats the point. maybe I should just add another 800ah worth of lithium but that's also another 1000lbs too. I'd have to put them in the bow somewhere to balance the boat.

On Mar 7, 2023, at 18:03, Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com> wrote:

We had an airx. I would not recommend wind power.
Very noisy, only make power in 10 knots plus, and most anchorages are not windy. When it is windy they do make a good amount of power and noise.
Solar worked much better.
Maybe if your in a location with little sun and lots of wind it could be useful. But in my experience in Florida and Bahamas, solar worked very well. Wind was not needed.
I still have the tower/poles and hardware, if anyone is interested.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 8:16 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:
I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

Tuesday, March 7, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Yes, you can run them under way. The only time you could not run them is in very high winds.

The pole kit I had is 8ft, if I remember correctly. It was rather clunky looking on my 27ft boat.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 9:38 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Thanks. I guess that gets back to my question: is it safe to run the windmills when you are underway? Googling seems to indicate so?

All the installations I see it looks as if the entire thing is located well out of the way of crew or sheets or sails, but I'm wondering if there are other reasons that it's simply not a good idea?

Very Correct that you don't want an anchorage to be windy, but here in Washington it's not uncommon for evening atavatic winds to come down from the mountains and if you are anchored with the land windward it will blow across the boat but not create uncomfortable rocking near shore.

But also, if on an eight hour sail I can keep a 400w turbine going at 50% capacity, that's 200w/48v * 8h = 33.3ah back into my battery. Only 1/24th my total capacity, but since I haven't been able to fit even 400w of solar panels in a non-shaded location (trouble with ketch rigs - I currently have two small 100w hanging off the stern rails) it's better than having to always find a marina to recharge. I tend to get less than half that power input out of prop regen if sailing above 4.5 kts or against the tidal current. It might also exceed whatever motoring I had to do to get out of the marina or through a countervailing tide etc. I guess if I was always sailing north I could keep solar under the mainsail and it would mostly be well lit. :-). Super interested for the day when we can make sails out out flexible solar material, it will come.

Range under battery is the reason I get anxious about taking this boat on longer trips like the inside passage. I have backups like nobody's business including a bunch of extra batteries, small solar generator, and gasoline generator, but that sort of defeats the point. maybe I should just add another 800ah worth of lithium but that's also another 1000lbs too. I'd have to put them in the bow somewhere to balance the boat.

On Mar 7, 2023, at 18:03, Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com> wrote:

We had an airx. I would not recommend wind power.
Very noisy, only make power in 10 knots plus, and most anchorages are not windy. When it is windy they do make a good amount of power and noise.
Solar worked much better.
Maybe if your in a location with little sun and lots of wind it could be useful. But in my experience in Florida and Bahamas, solar worked very well. Wind was not needed.
I still have the tower/poles and hardware, if anyone is interested.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 8:16 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:

I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Thanks. I guess that gets back to my question: is it safe to run the windmills when you are underway? Googling seems to indicate so?

All the installations I see it looks as if the entire thing is located well out of the way of crew or sheets or sails, but I'm wondering if there are other reasons that it's simply not a good idea?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 18:03, Kev <captainyoung@gmail.com> wrote:

We had an airx. I would not recommend wind power.
Very noisy, only make power in 10 knots plus, and most anchorages are not windy. When it is windy they do make a good amount of power and noise.
Solar worked much better.
Maybe if your in a location with little sun and lots of wind it could be useful. But in my experience in Florida and Bahamas, solar worked very well. Wind was not needed.
I still have the tower/poles and hardware, if anyone is interested.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 8:16 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:
Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:

I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

We had an airx. I would not recommend wind power.

Very noisy, only make power in 10 knots plus, and most anchorages are not windy. When it is windy they do make a good amount of power and noise.

Solar worked much better.

Maybe if your in a location with little sun and lots of wind it could be useful. But in my experience in Florida and Bahamas, solar worked very well. Wind was not needed.

I still have the tower/poles and hardware, if anyone is interested.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 8:16 PM Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:

I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Yeah I'd be interested. I am not in a hurry but tell me more?

On Mar 7, 2023, at 17:11, THOMAS VANDERMEULEN <tvinypsi@gmail.com> wrote:

I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

I might be interested in your airex windmill.
Please message me with additional details, your asking price, and present location of the gear.
Fell free to email to tvinypsi@gmail.com.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

I have an unused Airx 48v that I never I never installed. Had for probably 8 years. If you think that could work let me know.

-Steve

On Mar 7, 2023, at 1:14 PM, Ryan Sweet <ryan@ryansweet.org> wrote:

Yeah I'm with you on this I've seen a lot of garbage out there.

I also see a lot of (usually nicer boats) in the marina with wind systems that are spinning like crazy and think, it can't hurt to find out what it costs for a quality system.

Thanks!

On Mar 7, 2023, at 08:31, twowheelinguy via groups.io <twowheelinguy=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I've done a LOT of research on windmills as well and know plenty of people who have actually deployed them and let's just say I don't have a very high OPINION of them. Admittedly anecdotal evidence but everyone I know who has gotten them has not been happy, specifically the ones from Alibaba. Do the math, you're not going to get 3000W from a 3' diameter pinwheel. A 3000W windmill for $400 is Chinese lie.

Having said that I do believe the concept of windmills is sound and you might be able to find a high end unit that will meet your expectations but it won't be from Alibaba for a couple hundred bucks.

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 07:09:09 PM EST, Reuben Trane via groups.io <rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

I did some research several years ago into wind turbines. I was looking for something to charge my 1,000AH/48v LFP battery. I did find plenty to choose from - most were too large to mount on your boat. I'll review my research to see if I can find something applicable to your boat.

There are also hybrid controllers that handle both the solar and wind. In addition, you may need a dump load. If you have an electric hot water heater you can find a 48v element so you don't throw away the extra energy.

I found a 3kW unit for $400 including shipping at AliExpress. There are many to chose from.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Yeah I'm with you on this I've seen a lot of garbage out there.

I also see a lot of (usually nicer boats) in the marina with wind systems that are spinning like crazy and think, it can't hurt to find out what it costs for a quality system.

Thanks!

On Mar 7, 2023, at 08:31, twowheelinguy via groups.io <twowheelinguy=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I've done a LOT of research on windmills as well and know plenty of people who have actually deployed them and let's just say I don't have a very high OPINION of them. Admittedly anecdotal evidence but everyone I know who has gotten them has not been happy, specifically the ones from Alibaba. Do the math, you're not going to get 3000W from a 3' diameter pinwheel. A 3000W windmill for $400 is Chinese lie.

Having said that I do believe the concept of windmills is sound and you might be able to find a high end unit that will meet your expectations but it won't be from Alibaba for a couple hundred bucks.

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 07:09:09 PM EST, Reuben Trane via groups.io <rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

I did some research several years ago into wind turbines. I was looking for something to charge my 1,000AH/48v LFP battery. I did find plenty to choose from - most were too large to mount on your boat. I'll review my research to see if I can find something applicable to your boat.

There are also hybrid controllers that handle both the solar and wind. In addition, you may need a dump load. If you have an electric hot water heater you can find a 48v element so you don't throw away the extra energy.

I found a 3kW unit for $400 including shipping at AliExpress. There are many to chose from.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Had an air-X on my boat.

Let's get real! Even 15mph is uncomfortable at anchor.

Although the generator would out preformed my (at the time 45 watt panel) in a stiff wind, it was anchor watch time. The rest of the time the panel out preformed.

My preference is panels, and a good anchorages in windshadows.

Under way the vortex created a wind speed that would help charge the bank.

The best and simple answer for voltage control is a clamping controller. That is of course my opinion.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 9:58 AM Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

Well said Cap'n.

As example, an AIR-X or AiR403 is about a 3ft diam. windmill and rated for about 400watt peak (28mph windspeed).
Folks get excited about the power rating not realizing how the power drops quickly with wind speed.
At half the wind speed, a given windmill's power output will drop by 78%! So, even with 14mph wind speed, an AIRX or AIR403 can only be expected to deliver at most 50watts. I can vouch for that as I have used an AIR403 on my boat and one time with a very strong (~12kts) following wind we were seeing about 50watts of power going into the battery pack. There was an added benefit: With following winds, the drag on the windmill also helps propel the boat.
I have since not used the windmill on my boat as it was a pretty sketchy setup and I tend to be a fair weather boater and avoid windy conditions.

-MT

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of twowheelinguy via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 8:31 AM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

I've done a LOT of research on windmills as well and know plenty of people who have actually deployed them and let's just say I don't have a very high OPINION of them. Admittedly anecdotal evidence but everyone I know who has gotten them has not been happy, specifically the ones from Alibaba. Do the math, you're not going to get 3000W from a 3' diameter pinwheel. A 3000W windmill for $400 is Chinese lie.

Having said that I do believe the concept of windmills is sound and you might be able to find a high end unit that will meet your expectations but it won't be from Alibaba for a couple hundred bucks.

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 07:09:09 PM EST, Reuben Trane via groups.io <rjtrane=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

I did some research several years ago into wind turbines. I was looking for something to charge my 1,000AH/48v LFP battery. I did find plenty to choose from - most were too large to mount on your boat. I'll review my research to see if I can find something applicable to your boat.

There are also hybrid controllers that handle both the solar and wind. In addition, you may need a dump load. If you have an electric hot water heater you can find a 48v element so you don't throw away the extra energy.
I found a 3kW unit for $400 including shipping at AliExpress. There are many to chose from.

_._,_._,_

Groups.io Links:

You receive all messages sent to this group.

_._,_._,_

T-Pain Is On A Boat

Thursday, March 23, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Re: [electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Wednesday, March 22, 2023

[electricboats] Recommendation for 48 v inboard motor + generator.

Monday, March 20, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Sunday, March 19, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Saturday, March 18, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Thursday, March 16, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Re: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Re: [electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Wednesday, March 15, 2023

[electricboats] Lots of questions

[electricboats] Common DC ground with multiple banks

Wednesday, March 8, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Tuesday, March 7, 2023

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

Re: [electricboats] Recommendations for a windmill/charge controller?

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