Wednesday, November 30, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

These are great points. For instance, I'd not thought of having an Li-ion house bank while keeping an AGM for starting. Makes a lot of sense. 

I would urge people to click through to the Quora author's master page, he covers a lot of topics, some of which may help inform the discussions here rather than taking it abroad into cars and so on.

Best regards,

Dan 

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts!
San Diego, CA 92104 USA
619.270.6434 Mobile

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying


On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:53 PM Myles Twete <matwete@comcast.net> wrote:

John and Cap'n Carter offer great points and advice to consider.

This year I had had enough with lead acid starting batteries on my Vanagon, which only gets driven really a few times a year.  I looked at available lithium options that might work to replace the starting battery, but except for "maybe" one that checked at least most of the boxes, the price was in the higher hundred$ for a Lithium Ion option.  Sure, LiFePo options are out there, but as pointed out earlier, there are BMS and other reasons they can't handle this application.

What did I do?

I made my own Lithium Ion starter battery.  It was a lot of work and ended up not fitting, so I had to carve out some metal to get it to fit, but what an amazing starter battery I have now.  Tested CCA (Battery Analyzer): 3000 CCA.

While it didn't cost me a whole lot to do, it was a lot of work.

In my case, I started with a known lithium ion cell stack I have used on my boat for 31-48v use (nom. 42v, 35ah, 12S2P config).  I then disassembled all the interconnects and carefully made new ones to make a nom. 14v (4S6P) 105ah battery.  I took the existing BMS card and made custom cabling, using just 4 of the monitoring channels.  I already use these batteries and BMS cards on my boat pack (20P(12S(2P)) configuration for 700ah capacity) where I can monitor (and bypass if needed) any of the 240 cell pairs in the pack.  For my Vanagon, there's just 4 cell hextets to monitor.

In either case, no active BMS is really needed given the operating conditions I have.  In the boat's case, I almost never take the pack voltage below 36v and check and balance the pack about once a year (only maybe 4-7 charge cycles).

In the Vanagon's case, I measured the BMS readings at rest, during start and after charging and after a couple trips and have seen no change in differential cell voltages.

 

Performance: Rock solid starting (3000CCA vs maybe 250 or less with what I typically ended up with).  Ability to disconnect and float the battery (and cells) for months or years at a time without lead-acid worry of "sulfation".  Cost was under $300 total.

 

I still need to get the thing completely parked in place.  I do have a new battery compartment lid I made, but still need to hammer out a replacement side wall.  I also finally invested in a "house power" or auxiliary battery.  In that case, I bought some of the lower cost nom. 12v LFP 25ah(?) boxes out there.  The price was right, and they fit in the cavity nicely, but boy I really do hate that these battery manufacturers get away with embedding BMS electronics that cannot be disabled or won't self-disable during times of no discharge.  Probably every one of these out there will "self-brick" within months if left alone.  When these LFP batteries I got arrived, each one of them only read under 2volts!!!  Fortunately, literature shows that most lithium chemistries will survive "self-discharge", just not reverse polarity (which is what you get when you serially discharge a series of cells).  Still some of these LFP manufacturers (e.g. NEC) make batteries which, like laptop smart batteries, will blow an internal fuse or otherwise lock out the battery terminals from being charged or discharged if the voltage drops, say, below 10v.  These may be recoverable as I found with the NEC batteries, but your mileage may vary…

 

One last thing: You might be thinking "Wow, you must have one heck of a beefy BMS if it can work as a starter battery!"  Actually, no.  The BMS cards I use is only good to bypass about 1amp around cell pairs.  It's such a trickle that it can take days or longer to balance differentials of any significance.   And that's okay.  As configured, a 420amp starting current will draw just 70amps per cell with my battery.  Now, that is not exactly insignificant as these are 17ah cells, so this is about a 4C draw.  However, it's just for a very short time and the amount of amp-hours drawn during a start episode is miniscule---I measured drop in the low millivolts at the cell level during a start.

 

Anyway, long wind here, but for me, very happy with lithium ion for a starter battery.

 

-Myles

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of twowheelinguy via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2022 12:00 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

 

I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.  

 

As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because  the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life?

 

I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to  LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet. 

 

Capt. Carter

 

On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.

 

This came down my Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.

 

Best regards,

 

Dan

 

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.

Founder, CEO

Democracy Counts!

San Diego, CA 92104 USA

619.270.6434 Mobile

 

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying

 

 

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Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

John and Cap'n Carter offer great points and advice to consider.

This year I had had enough with lead acid starting batteries on my Vanagon, which only gets driven really a few times a year.  I looked at available lithium options that might work to replace the starting battery, but except for "maybe" one that checked at least most of the boxes, the price was in the higher hundred$ for a Lithium Ion option.  Sure, LiFePo options are out there, but as pointed out earlier, there are BMS and other reasons they can't handle this application.

What did I do?

I made my own Lithium Ion starter battery.  It was a lot of work and ended up not fitting, so I had to carve out some metal to get it to fit, but what an amazing starter battery I have now.  Tested CCA (Battery Analyzer): 3000 CCA.

While it didn't cost me a whole lot to do, it was a lot of work.

In my case, I started with a known lithium ion cell stack I have used on my boat for 31-48v use (nom. 42v, 35ah, 12S2P config).  I then disassembled all the interconnects and carefully made new ones to make a nom. 14v (4S6P) 105ah battery.  I took the existing BMS card and made custom cabling, using just 4 of the monitoring channels.  I already use these batteries and BMS cards on my boat pack (20P(12S(2P)) configuration for 700ah capacity) where I can monitor (and bypass if needed) any of the 240 cell pairs in the pack.  For my Vanagon, there's just 4 cell hextets to monitor.

In either case, no active BMS is really needed given the operating conditions I have.  In the boat's case, I almost never take the pack voltage below 36v and check and balance the pack about once a year (only maybe 4-7 charge cycles).

In the Vanagon's case, I measured the BMS readings at rest, during start and after charging and after a couple trips and have seen no change in differential cell voltages.

 

Performance: Rock solid starting (3000CCA vs maybe 250 or less with what I typically ended up with).  Ability to disconnect and float the battery (and cells) for months or years at a time without lead-acid worry of "sulfation".  Cost was under $300 total.

 

I still need to get the thing completely parked in place.  I do have a new battery compartment lid I made, but still need to hammer out a replacement side wall.  I also finally invested in a "house power" or auxiliary battery.  In that case, I bought some of the lower cost nom. 12v LFP 25ah(?) boxes out there.  The price was right, and they fit in the cavity nicely, but boy I really do hate that these battery manufacturers get away with embedding BMS electronics that cannot be disabled or won't self-disable during times of no discharge.  Probably every one of these out there will "self-brick" within months if left alone.  When these LFP batteries I got arrived, each one of them only read under 2volts!!!  Fortunately, literature shows that most lithium chemistries will survive "self-discharge", just not reverse polarity (which is what you get when you serially discharge a series of cells).  Still some of these LFP manufacturers (e.g. NEC) make batteries which, like laptop smart batteries, will blow an internal fuse or otherwise lock out the battery terminals from being charged or discharged if the voltage drops, say, below 10v.  These may be recoverable as I found with the NEC batteries, but your mileage may vary…

 

One last thing: You might be thinking "Wow, you must have one heck of a beefy BMS if it can work as a starter battery!"  Actually, no.  The BMS cards I use is only good to bypass about 1amp around cell pairs.  It's such a trickle that it can take days or longer to balance differentials of any significance.   And that's okay.  As configured, a 420amp starting current will draw just 70amps per cell with my battery.  Now, that is not exactly insignificant as these are 17ah cells, so this is about a 4C draw.  However, it's just for a very short time and the amount of amp-hours drawn during a start episode is miniscule---I measured drop in the low millivolts at the cell level during a start.

 

Anyway, long wind here, but for me, very happy with lithium ion for a starter battery.

 

-Myles

 

 

From: electricboats@groups.io [mailto:electricboats@groups.io] On Behalf Of twowheelinguy via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2022 12:00 PM
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

 

I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.  

 

As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because  the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life?

 

I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to  LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet. 

 

Capt. Carter

 

On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.

 

This came down my Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.

 

Best regards,

 

Dan

 

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.

Founder, CEO

Democracy Counts!

San Diego, CA 92104 USA

619.270.6434 Mobile

 

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying

 

 

Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

I checked out the post and the guy left out one simple yet important detail. You can't use a battery with a 100amp BMS for starting your car, which is what all of the cheaper prismatic cell lithium batteries come with. Thankfully most of them will point blank tell you not to use on your car but usually it's buried in the finer print that most people don't read or even follow half the time when they do.  

As long as you shell out for the upgraded BMS and cells that will give you the CCA capacity you need then lithium is great but I don't think it's a better value because  the batteries that can do that are much more expensive and that brings into questions the cost effectiveness of the extra investment, especially when you can pretty much count on a decent FLA to crank your car for 6 years or more. The lithium chemistry definitely outperforms Lead by leaps and bounds but it's the long-term reliability of the BMS I worry about. If you're paying 5 times more for a Lithium battery do you really think you'll get 5 times longer life? Do you even need 5 times longer life?

I'm a total Lithium convert and won't deny it's the near term future of energy storage. With the recent precipitous price drops, I finally converted the Arc from FLAs to  LiFePo this year and am flabbergasted at how much better they are but I think it's safe to say lead is not quite dead. Yet. 

Capt. Carter
www.shipofimagination.com

On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:08:24 AM EST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@gmail.com> wrote:


Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.

This came down my Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.

Best regards,

Dan

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts!
San Diego, CA 92104 USA
619.270.6434 Mobile

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying


Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

There were two primary concerns that I heard with respect to using Lithium drop in batteries in cars or boats as replacements for traditional lead acid or AGM batteries:

1) If the BMS detects that the battery charging is complete (or that the alternator is attempting to overcharge), the BMS will electrically disconnect the battery.  If there is no load on the alternator when the engine is running, you will typically fry the diodes in the alternator.

2) Lithium batteries can take sink high amounts of current, and can easily overwhelm a traditional alternator, leading to the alternator being burned out if the battery is deeply discharged when the engine is started.

Both of the above two issues can be resolved with smart enough BMS configurations and/or alternators.  The second problem (limiting the charge current pulled by the battery) can be managed with a DC2DC charger.  I've heard there are also "black boxes" that one can get to serve as a load for the alternator if the BMS hits 'full' and disconnects the battery.  

How would one know if the specific BMS of the battery one is buying (i.e. from Amazon, from China, with little to no documentation - especially no documentation about the BMS...) is set up to allow use in a car application?  Are current "drop in replacement" 12V Lithium batteries set up to handle the above two cases?

For my trawler, the best solution seems to be to use conventional AGM batteries as the starting batteries, but have a significant LFP (lithium iron phosphate) bank for the house bank.   I'm planning to use a Renogy 30A DC-2-DC charger that can supplement charging of the house bank when I'm under way.

On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 09:41:42 AM CST, Daniel Wolf <danielhwolf@gmail.com> wrote:


I should have mentioned, for those who are not familiar with Quora, that if you click on the name of the person posting the answer you get all of his or her other answers. There are many more answers and discussions of lithium battery technology there.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022, 6:08 AM Daniel Wolf via groups.io <danielhwolf=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.

This came down my Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.

Best regards,

Dan

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts!
San Diego, CA 92104 USA
619.270.6434 Mobile

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying


Re: [electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

I should have mentioned, for those who are not familiar with Quora, that if you click on the name of the person posting the answer you get all of his or her other answers. There are many more answers and discussions of lithium battery technology there.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022, 6:08 AM Daniel Wolf via groups.io <danielhwolf=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.

This came down my Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.

Best regards,

Dan

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts!
San Diego, CA 92104 USA
619.270.6434 Mobile

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying


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Tuesday, November 29, 2022

[electricboats] Li-ion battery designer commentary

Lurker here who enjoys all the informative info you all post.

This came down my Quora feed, I thought it might be of interest to you. It's by a Li-ion battery designer and he provides a lot of practical knowledge.

Best regards,

Dan

Daniel H. Wolf, Esq.
Founder, CEO
Democracy Counts!
San Diego, CA 92104 USA
619.270.6434 Mobile

Act always as if the future of the universe depends on what you do, while laughing at yourself for thinking that anything you do makes any difference.

                                                                                                  A Buddhist saying


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Thursday, November 24, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Combining low and high DC grounds

Yes you can. In that case you call the ground a common. You must remember your circuit must only include the ground(common) and no other voltages...

To avoid back feeding on any level it is best to have completely separate systems. 

A final thought! It is necessary to have control circuits tied by common unless the two are an isolated system. 

Hope that helps. 

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 9:36 AM Retreat Time via groups.io <sailorboy55577=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Can someone here direct me to the right information regarding DC grounds, can 72-volt 6S batteries be commonly grounded to the same 4p house bank?

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Tuesday, November 22, 2022

[electricboats] Combining low and high DC grounds

Can someone here direct me to the right information regarding DC grounds, can 72-volt 6S batteries be commonly grounded to the same 4p house bank?
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[electricboats] Combining low and high DC grounds

Can someone here direct me to the right information regarding DC grounds, can 72-volt 6S batteries be commonly grounded to the same 4p house bank?
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Monday, November 7, 2022

Re: [electricboats] ME1115 DSP Encoder Fault 0x52C1

Mine failed because of Lightning, good idea to keep a few spares handy.

John Winterrowd 702 343 1492 4.2.1. Email Disclaimer NOTICE: The information contained in this electronic transmission is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. ANY DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE IS PROHIBITED, except by the intended recipient. Attempts to intercept this message are in violation of 18 U.S.C. 2511(1) of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, which subjects the interceptor to fines, imprisonment and/or civil damages. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify me.

On Monday, November 7, 2022, 09:10:37 AM EST, Ryan Rolland <ryan@rolland.biz> wrote:


Hi Thiery,
The motor is installed inside the cabin of a catalina 30 that is moored in salt water. The motor has been installed for about three years, however, this problem began to surface after a year. It had gotten worse though, i.e. less likely to not fault in the last month. 

Ryan R.



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Thierry <thierry.lequeu@gmail.com>
Date: 11/6/22 9:22 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] ME1115 DSP Encoder Fault 0x52C1

Hello Ryan,
I guess the environment is salty.
How long has the motor been installed?
It seems to me that the cover does not have a seal...
Moisture can also penetrate the bearing of the rotor shaft, normal since the ME1115 is an open frame motor!
Thierry
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Re: [electricboats] ME1115 DSP Encoder Fault 0x52C1

Hi Thiery,
The motor is installed inside the cabin of a catalina 30 that is moored in salt water. The motor has been installed for about three years, however, this problem began to surface after a year. It had gotten worse though, i.e. less likely to not fault in the last month. 

Ryan R.



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Thierry <thierry.lequeu@gmail.com>
Date: 11/6/22 9:22 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: electricboats@groups.io
Subject: Re: [electricboats] ME1115 DSP Encoder Fault 0x52C1

Hello Ryan,
I guess the environment is salty.
How long has the motor been installed?
It seems to me that the cover does not have a seal...
Moisture can also penetrate the bearing of the rotor shaft, normal since the ME1115 is an open frame motor!
Thierry

Sunday, November 6, 2022

Re: [electricboats] ME1115 DSP Encoder Fault 0x52C1

Hello Ryan,
I guess the environment is salty.
How long has the motor been installed?
It seems to me that the cover does not have a seal...
Moisture can also penetrate the bearing of the rotor shaft, normal since the ME1115 is an open frame motor!
Thierry
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Re: [electricboats] Max props have arrived

Sorry I was looking at easy prop 14.
look at fig. 3 in manual, 24” gives you 15 inches
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Re: [electricboats] Max props have arrived

Let do some math.
2500 Max RPM divided by 3.21 = 778.8 RPM at the Prop
8 knots is approx = 9 MPH
9 MPH = 47,520 feet per hour
47,520 feet per hour = 792 ft per minute
792 ft per minute = 778.8 rotations per minute = 1.02 ft per rotation
1.02 ft per rotation is approx = 12 inches per rotation 
12 inches per rotation gives you the minimum pitch assuming that all the rotation of the prop resulted in forward motion of the boat.
Looking at the Easy Prop Table, 24 deg, 11.8" is the most they recommend.
You could go past the recommended to 30 deg, but that is a lot of pitch and at that pitch you may exceed the torque rating of the motor.
 
Can you change the reduction gears?
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Saturday, November 5, 2022

Re: [electricboats] Max props have arrived

Depending on what you like to achieve probably? It sounds pretty good to me already. If it was me I would go for as little pitch as possible to try to make the propeller as efficient as possible. But I would be more interested in power to drive into wind and/or waves than try to get the highest speed possible. Would be really interesting to see what it will do with efficiency when you increase the pitch. 

Op vr 4 nov. 2022 20:05 schreef Retreat Time via groups.io <sailorboy55577=yahoo.com@groups.io>:
44 ft catamaran
Max prop easy18 in diameter 4 blade pitch is adjustable 16 to 24 degrees
72 volt 18 kw motor, max RPM 1200
Reductions =90-tooth bottom pulley 28-tooth top pulley = 3.21:1 ratio
39.5ft waterline-
hull speed is close 7.8 to 8.4 knots

I think the reduction is too much, I would like advice on what to set the pitch to.


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