Wednesday, March 25, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Torqeedo or MinnKota Edrive

 

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the input. It is very helpful!

Ryan
 
Ryan 


"Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right." -Henry Ford



On Sunday, March 22, 2015 9:18 PM, "Joe Siudzinski siudzinski@telis.org [electricboats]" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


There will always be situations when a motor is insufficient to overcome the forces exerted by the wind, no matter how large and powerful the motor, within reason. Trick is to design for the local usual conditions, don't go out if the forecast exceeds these, and always carry a good anchor and chain.

Sometimes, instead of trying to turn the bow of the boat INTO the wind, it may work to rotate the motor and make that turn by going backwards; alternatively, make a similar turn by going forward and falling off and jibing around.

I know, I know, a corollary to Murphy's Law dictates that this will happen with no maneuvering room inside a marina... been there :-)

JoeS.


On Mar 22, 2015, at 17:35 , Forums forums@greensdomain.com [electricboats] wrote:

>
>
> I have a Torqeedo cruise 4 on my 24 ft pontoon and am very happy with it.  Most days (99%) I cruise using 1000-1500 watts so a cruise 2 would be fine.  Every now and then (when there's very strong cross winds and I am trying to turn into them), I wish I had more power.
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> On Mar 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, Ryan Butash rbutash01@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello, I am in the process of purchasing an 18ft Pontoon from Apex/Qwest and am trying to decide between the Torqeedo cruise 2.0 or the eDrive. I really like the fact that the torqeedo only needs two batteries. Does anyone have experience with either of the electric outboards?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ryan
>> Brighton, MI
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

>>
>>
>
>
>



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Tuesday, March 24, 2015

[Electric Boats] Re: OMC Zephyr Saildrive Conversion

 

Richard,


I did a conversion from a Zephyr a few years ago on a Victoria 26. Details can be found in archives or on my blog documenting the conversion if you haven't run across it already. http://v26coincidence.blogspot.com/


At the time when I was trying to salvage the Zephyr in mid-season and doing a rebuild (actually, someone else was doing it for me), there was some concern as to whether or not the engine head could be removed when the boat was in the water. Since cooling water comes up through the saildrive, removing the engine (and the gasket) would cause water to enter the engine compartment. Sorry, this was some time ago, and since I didn't do the work myself, recollection is sketchy. I believe model years were different. Some had some sort of seacock that would allow you to close off the cooling system, while other years did not. My point, be sure your saildrive is of the ilk that can be closed off—for obvious reasons. 


I wound up replacing the saildrive leg with a new outdrive from Sillette. Sounds like you've done the gear ratio homework, so no concerns there. Good luck!


Eric

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Monday, March 23, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: new member's project: EP mountain lake cruiser on $2000 budget

 

Hi Bill,

You wrote:


"... let me know if I can run + and -  backwards through the mofit pulse wave controller when throwing it into reverse,  If I can't I guess Ill get another $14 dollar controller for reverse."


You'll want to reverse the direction of the PM motor by changing the polarity at the motor terminals, using a reversing solenoid between the motor and the controller.


It sounds like you are asking if you can reverse the polarity of the power input to the controller to reverse the motor, and the answer to that is definitely NO.


-Tom

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: new member's project: EP mountain lake cruiser on $2000 budget

 

I suspect that the motor is good, and the controllers may or may not be
technically good.
Ie heating is maybe a concern, and longevity may be.
You paid very little, and have little to loose, imo.
Good luck- let us know how it turns out.

As I said, price is not necessarily a good indication.

Today, you definitely dont "get what you pay for".
The same stuff may be sold for 10x the price, when badged with someones
label.

Also, newer electronics, like the controllers, cost about 1/10 of old
ones to make, and are generally (but not necessarily) much better made.
Consumer stuff tends to be all over the place, and industrial stuff
tends to be pretty good to excellent.

On 21/03/2015 16:18, billhopen@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:
>
> thanks again for the help/advice

--
-hanermo (cnc designs)

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Sunday, March 22, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Torqeedo or MinnKota Edrive

There will always be situations when a motor is insufficient to overcome the forces exerted by the wind, no matter how large and powerful the motor, within reason. Trick is to design for the local usual conditions, don't go out if the forecast exceeds these, and always carry a good anchor and chain.

Sometimes, instead of trying to turn the bow of the boat INTO the wind, it may work to rotate the motor and make that turn by going backwards; alternatively, make a similar turn by going forward and falling off and jibing around.

I know, I know, a corollary to Murphy's Law dictates that this will happen with no maneuvering room inside a marina... been there :-)

JoeS.


On Mar 22, 2015, at 17:35 , Forums forums@greensdomain.com [electricboats] wrote:

>
>
> I have a Torqeedo cruise 4 on my 24 ft pontoon and am very happy with it. Most days (99%) I cruise using 1000-1500 watts so a cruise 2 would be fine. Every now and then (when there's very strong cross winds and I am trying to turn into them), I wish I had more power.
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> On Mar 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, Ryan Butash rbutash01@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello, I am in the process of purchasing an 18ft Pontoon from Apex/Qwest and am trying to decide between the Torqeedo cruise 2.0 or the eDrive. I really like the fact that the torqeedo only needs two batteries. Does anyone have experience with either of the electric outboards?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ryan
>> Brighton, MI
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
>>
>>
>
>
>



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Re: [Electric Boats] Torqeedo or MinnKota Edrive

 

I have a Torqeedo cruise 4 on my 24 ft pontoon and am very happy with it.  Most days (99%) I cruise using 1000-1500 watts so a cruise 2 would be fine.   Every now and then (when there's very strong cross winds and I am trying to turn into them), I wish I had more power. 

Pat



On Mar 19, 2015, at 12:15 PM, Ryan Butash rbutash01@yahoo.com [electricboats] <electricboats@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hello, I am in the process of purchasing an 18ft Pontoon from Apex/Qwest and am trying to decide between the Torqeedo cruise 2.0 or the eDrive. I really like the fact that the torqeedo only needs two batteries. Does anyone have experience with either of the electric outboards?

Thanks,

Ryan
Brighton, MI

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption

 

Hi, glenn, as a comparison on props what is the amp draw and is there a difference that makes run times any better ??  There should be a change in several things that interact.   I had a Kipawa, and three bladed one was harder to store laying down at that time, should have kept it for tests.  I saw that the "push" was more, but also the amp draw was high, so batteries drew down faster.   The MCota props are weedless, and not fully power oriented.   I pulled several boats out of heavy weed a few years ago, that I motored through and they thought they could do that too.  Power props are like gassie props, need to be matched to the boat hull speed, and environment specifically.
 
I'm thinking of getting another Kipawa prop, as now my sail boat has the electric in a well in front of the rudder, and helps in light winds, like a motorsailer in miniature.  I have around six hours of prop time, so fighting wind on lakes is the bigger deal now.
 
On several Minn Cota drives I have, I figure hull speed, the best lower realistic trip (cruise) speed, then prop it to find the least draw at the trip speeds.  That way the max speed is only for windy conditions, and or accepting a short but emergency power draw.  I use as little amps as possible to get to lower hull speeds, that are acceptable to get me home even if I have to wait for the wind to die off a bit.
 
Learned on a lake years ago, went downwind and explored, wind came up with wife sideways to the wind in the lake center in her kayak.  Not only did my rowing dinghy not have enough in reserve to get to her, but my battery went low beside a 1/4 mile blackberry growth hung over the water and to leeward.  Ever time I went windward, the waves came into the bow of my boat, stopped at the first bulkhead, and pushed it down for more water.  Between bailing, rowing, and steering we both got back, but that was the last time I ever went out without a two battery set up, one as reserve.  Also battery condition meters on each, is a big help. 
 
Just a casual observation, have a great day ---------- Cal
 
 
 
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption [2 Attachments]
 
 



Yesturday I tested for the first time a marriage of a Toq. prop to a MG hub.  It was quite windy so I couldn't do any precise testing but it was definately more effecient than either a Kip. or the standard MG prop. Hull speed at lower throttle.   A couple of photo attached.
Glenn Holland
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Lyman 13 Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 power consumption
 
 

Before finding this site,  I did purchase a Kipawa prop but since it is still winter here haven't tried it yet. I was also thinking of making a fairing for the shaft as well.

 

After doing some research here, I was also thinking of trying the Torqeedo prop on the trolling motor.

 

Most of the nearby lakes around me are electric only state parks and, from what I have witnessed, have not been exposed to a real electric powered boat of any significance to test the 'electric only' rule.  My goal with this setup is just a nice no-wake cruising speed with some reserve power if needed.  With two small children getting used to boating, this is about my limit at the time. 

 

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Saturday, March 21, 2015

Re: [Electric Boats] Re: new member's project: EP mountain lake cruiser on $2000 budget

 

Hannu Venermo,  Thank you for your patiently explained run down on motors,  My initial trial motor

 has been selected, the  first criterion, my budget concerns, was met....($105 on ebay). if it works out,
it, great! if not it, i will grab a more powerful hi rpm motor and rig a reduction transmission for it and
 get larger motor controller (and probably go over budget) 

I am a "rigger" and always on a tight budget...I look for hi quality stuff at a low price
 that is surplus that I can cobble together for my projects and try to do it with flare...
so anyway this motor is from a large self- propelled (and battery run) floor scrubbing machine, 
the kind used to clean big box stores.  These ride-on machines cost over $25,000., they are like a 
Zamboni for asphalt tile... so the motor is top notch hi-quality, industrial, built for continuous duty
and efficient for extended hours of battery powered operation.    It is rated at 36volts, but runs great 
with hi torque on 12v, and I bet will do fine at 48v.   The best thing is it comes with a HD gear box and
 puts out 300rpm at 36v....that is just perfect, hi torque/low speed.   it is rated at 1000watts, which is
 approx 1 1/2 hp at 36v, but could be considerably more run at 48v. (I'll monitor temperature closely)

The right angle drive is a used Nascar midget racer part, 3inches in diameter, good gears running in grease, 3/4 inch shafts in burly bronze bushings ($25. each, I bought two, one for a spare trany)
my prop is huge for the sailboat hull it will be pushing.   its a big wide bladed bronze prop 18 inches in
diameter, at 17inch pitch, 300 rpm  will give me 5mph if it doesn't slip much,   I will be posting photos 
of my propulsion contraption soon.  it is built for whimsy, humor, perhaps a little showy in a
 purposefully eccentric way...but hopefully it is also well engineered in a "mad max" sense.

The motor controller I purchased was a pulse wave mofit thingy from china also purchased on ebay for under $15....it seems to work, it has on off and a potentiometer dial, we will see how well and for how long under load, but its wattage/amperage rating is high enough for this motor.  This motor reverses if one simply reverses polarity,  I am hoping that the motor controller works ok if I switch plus to minus and minus to plus with the reversing switch I also bought ($6.00, you-guessed-it..on e-bay)  If you know anything about this type
motor, which I think is a permanent  magnet motor with brushes and whisper quiet, let me know if I can run 
+ and -  backwards through the mofit pulse wave controller when throwing it into reverse,  If I can't I guess Ill get another $14 dollar controller for reverse.

thanks again for the help/advice


 

---In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, <gcode.fi@...> wrote :

Modern motor controllers are extremely efficient at almost any speed.
An example is brushless servo motors.

They are about 1/4 the size, and 1/10 the mass, of my old 3-phase 1/2 hp
Bridgeport motor.
The Bp is 18 kg, for 0.5 Hp continuous output.
Its made in maybe 1950 (? 1940), and is near silent.

The 750 W == 1 Hp AC brushless servo motor is 3 kg, at 1/3 the size, and
will output 750 W forever.
Near silent, longevity == 10.000 work hours.

The 2.5 kW servo is ==8 kg, and equally good.
The electronics have fan cooling, unlike the smaller 750 W ones.

VFD-driven 3-phase motors (ie industrial motors) == servo motors, these
days, of different (electronic) designs.

Depending on the design, boat motors may or may not be as efficient.
Mostly, they are not, and thus need cooling.
There is no engineering reason for this, just that the boat market is so
small, most stuff does not come from industry, today (yet).

Usually, where you get lots of amps, heat becomes a factor.
Thus, higher voltage == tends to equate to "better".

Price has no bearing on the matter.
Some servos I use (750) cost 590€ for the motor, controller, everything.
Some others (yaskawa,Siemens) cost about 1500 for the electronics,
alone, and 3000€ for everything.

A 3-phase VFD motor from surplus center, for example, can cost 1500$ for
10 Hp, and 2500$ for 150 hp.

Some controllers for brushed motors need cooling at higher powers.
A well known respected KBIC controller is an example.
Thus, it will be "less efficient" - and this is mostly seen in that more
modern, brushless, designs tend to be better in terms of torque,
efficiency, longevity, maintenance etc.

All above may or may not be relevant -
As for those buying a kit, there are only a relatively few options, and
price + other considerations tend to dictate what you can choose.

For those making their own set from scratch -
Its neither hard not easy - somewhere in between.
The motor and controller is the easy part - and anything modern and
industrial meant for harsh duty/service will work well.
It just needs to be coupled to a suitable driveline.

A boat motor and controller is just about the easiest thing there is,
technically.
Similar to a conveyor belt.
Heavy varying loads for an extended time.


On 10/03/2015 13:06, billhopen@... [electricboats] wrote:
> I've a question about your motor efficiency, when you run your motor
> at lower power, does the motor itself get inefficient? I've seen
> power charts for certain motors that seem to indicate that at lower
> speeds, half the electric power is wasted, but at high output they are
> 90% efficient

--
-hanermo (cnc designs)

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Friday, March 20, 2015

[Electric Boats] OMC Zephyr Saildrive Conversion

 

We have an 26' S2 8.0...21.5 ft. wl, 4600 lb. disp. with an OMC Saildrive. We've unbolted the power head and ordered a conversion kit from EVDrives which includes a Motenergy ME 1004 (6.4 kw continuous @ 48V, 16 kw for 1 minute @ 48v) and an Alltrax SPM 484000 controller. We're going to power it with 6 of US Battery's 8vgc deep cycles and a Delta-Q charger (912-4800 also from EVDrives).

We're having a motor mount fabricated consisting of an aluminum plate bolting on the mounting surface of the saildrive, risers holding another plate several inches above to which the new motor bolts shaft down. Because the RPMs of the electric motor don't exceed the old OMC's power head, we are going to directly couple the two shafts. Because the old saildrive seems to shift fairly smoothly we are going use the existing throttle/shift lever already in the cockpit. (Using a PB6 throttle also from EV)

Looks like we'll have about $2,200-2,300 invested by the time we get the wiring harness made up and a few new switches.

So, a couple of things...If anyone can see anything we've overlooked or has some suggestions, we'd welcome your input.

Richard

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: new member's project: EP mountain lake cruiser on $2000 budget

 

Modern motor controllers are extremely efficient at almost any speed.
An example is brushless servo motors.

They are about 1/4 the size, and 1/10 the mass, of my old 3-phase 1/2 hp
Bridgeport motor.
The Bp is 18 kg, for 0.5 Hp continuous output.
Its made in maybe 1950 (? 1940), and is near silent.

The 750 W == 1 Hp AC brushless servo motor is 3 kg, at 1/3 the size, and
will output 750 W forever.
Near silent, longevity == 10.000 work hours.

The 2.5 kW servo is ==8 kg, and equally good.
The electronics have fan cooling, unlike the smaller 750 W ones.

VFD-driven 3-phase motors (ie industrial motors) == servo motors, these
days, of different (electronic) designs.

Depending on the design, boat motors may or may not be as efficient.
Mostly, they are not, and thus need cooling.
There is no engineering reason for this, just that the boat market is so
small, most stuff does not come from industry, today (yet).

Usually, where you get lots of amps, heat becomes a factor.
Thus, higher voltage == tends to equate to "better".

Price has no bearing on the matter.
Some servos I use (750) cost 590€ for the motor, controller, everything.
Some others (yaskawa,Siemens) cost about 1500 for the electronics,
alone, and 3000€ for everything.

A 3-phase VFD motor from surplus center, for example, can cost 1500$ for
10 Hp, and 2500$ for 150 hp.

Some controllers for brushed motors need cooling at higher powers.
A well known respected KBIC controller is an example.
Thus, it will be "less efficient" - and this is mostly seen in that more
modern, brushless, designs tend to be better in terms of torque,
efficiency, longevity, maintenance etc.

All above may or may not be relevant -
As for those buying a kit, there are only a relatively few options, and
price + other considerations tend to dictate what you can choose.

For those making their own set from scratch -
Its neither hard not easy - somewhere in between.
The motor and controller is the easy part - and anything modern and
industrial meant for harsh duty/service will work well.
It just needs to be coupled to a suitable driveline.

A boat motor and controller is just about the easiest thing there is,
technically.
Similar to a conveyor belt.
Heavy varying loads for an extended time.

On 10/03/2015 13:06, billhopen@yahoo.com [electricboats] wrote:
> I've a question about your motor efficiency, when you run your motor
> at lower power, does the motor itself get inefficient? I've seen
> power charts for certain motors that seem to indicate that at lower
> speeds, half the electric power is wasted, but at high output they are
> 90% efficient

--
-hanermo (cnc designs)

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Thursday, March 19, 2015

[Electric Boats] Torqeedo or MinnKota Edrive

 

Hello, I am in the process of purchasing an 18ft Pontoon from Apex/Qwest and am trying to decide between the Torqeedo cruise 2.0 or the eDrive. I really like the fact that the torqeedo only needs two batteries. Does anyone have experience with either of the electric outboards?

Thanks,

Ryan
Brighton, MI

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

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