Monday, April 30, 2012

[Electric Boats] Re: Hello

 


The statement that it takes 750W to displace 1tone is true but will bring you to hull speed in no wind conditions
--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "hardy71uk" <p0054107@...> wrote:
>
> boats are different to airplanes because although the formulas are the same there are different practical limits . For example in boats the larger the prop the more efficient ( that is at slow and medium speed ; the normal electric range) thats why , as I understand it, Larry recommends beginning with the biggest propellor that has adequate clearance .Find the power needed for the desired performance and then select pitch ,gear ratio and motor to match.
>
> Chris S
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Michaels <nov32394@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the input Larry.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am more familiar with airplanes and props but I think they work about the same.
> >
> >
> >
> > We first take the max rpm we are running plug that into the chart to
> > find out how fast the plane will go with each pitch. Shorten or lengthen
> > the prop to let the engine run at max rpm. The pitch tells you how fast
> > the plane will travel.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am not sure the Triton was designed around an Atomic 4. I think an
> > Atomic 4 fit into the general usage for the Triton. The Atomic 4 went as
> > high as 20 hp. When only 10 to 12 could really be used. Running the rpm
> > only to 1500 gave you 11.9 BHP. It has a 13 inch 2 blade prop. So if I
> > had 12 hp available at 1500 rpm it would do the same thing. If I found
> > out what hp the electric motor had at 1500 rpm I should know if it will
> > turn the prop. Alternatively I could shorten the prop and turn a higher
> > rpm. I could also go with a 3 bladed prop. The electric motor I am going
> > to use is 13 hp @ 48v same as the Atomic 4. Only this will far
> > outperform the Atomic 4.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is what I have so far. this is from limited knowledge but I am learning every day.
> >
> >
> >
> > It takes 1 Kw per ton of displacement.
> >
> > 750w = 1 hp
> >
> >
> >
> > 36 v 140 amps 1400 rpm 3500 watts E Teck motor.
> >
> > comes to 3500/750=4.7 hp * 2.5 conversion factor to compare it to the
> > Atomic 4 = 11.75 hp. @ 1500 rpm the Atomic 4 is 11.9 Very close.
> >
> >
> >
> > 48 v 180 amps 4800 rpm 9800 watts E Teck motor.
> >
> > comes to 9800/750=13 hp * 2.5 conversion factor = 32.5 hp but at 4800 rpm if I cut the rpm in half I am at 16.25 The Atomic 4 is 16.2 @ 2000.
> >
> >
> >
> > At 36v 3500 watts the 1 kw per ton works out very close to a Triton at 4 ton.
> >
> > At 48v 9800 watts /2 = 4900 it comes out in my favor with a half ton to
> > spare and that is at half throttle. If I use a reduction drive on the
> > 48v of 2 to 1 I am out performing the Atomic 4 at every level.
> >
> >
> >
> > 36v at 140 amps run wide open
> > 6 * 260 Ah batteries / 50% = 780 usable Ah. 780 / 140 amps = 5.5 hrs.
> > run at half throttle or less and you will go much farther same as if you
> > throttled back on the Atomic 4.
> >
> >
> >
> > 48v at 180 amps 8 * 260 Ah batteries / 50% = 1040 usable Ah. 1040 / 90
> > (180/2) amps = 11.5 hrs throttle back even more and even I need some
> > sleep.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is any of my math correct. I gave it my best shot.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> >
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite

 

This is a test post. Please accept apologies and ignore.
-Moderator

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Re: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project

 

Nick,
 
You missed my point, Eric got it.
My comment wasn't about hull speed.
Hell, some of the newer MacGregor 26's (X and M models) will support a 50 HP+ gas engine and pull a water skier.
My point was pedigree. If you're going to pour your heart soul (and money) into a project boat, it doesn't make much sense to start with a boat that really doesn't have much value.
There are lots of abandoned sailboats out there.
  
 
Jeff Gascho
Dovetail Designs
1889 US Rt. 9 #43
Toms River, NJ
732-244-8640
From: Nick <nstoika@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project

 
It's about hull speed not about fast......sail boat have a very good hull speed.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Gascho <dovetailnj@...> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>  
> In a Macgregor?
> Seems kinda like putting a Ferrari engine in a mid 80's Chrysler sedan, no?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Nick <nstoika@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:15 PM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project
>
>
>  
> I'm selling a 25 feet McGregor that has been a "project" for an electrical boat......due to personal issues I moved to Europe so the Boat is still in "project" stage in Lake Tahoe California.
> nstoika@...
>



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[Electric Boats] Hello

 

Kindly help me view this Property Click Here

Let me know what you think about it.

William

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Re: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project

 

It's about hull speed not about fast......sail boat have a very good hull speed.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Gascho <dovetailnj@...> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>  
> In a Macgregor?
> Seems kinda like putting a Ferrari engine in a mid 80's Chrysler sedan, no?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Nick <nstoika@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:15 PM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project
>
>
>  
> I'm selling a 25 feet McGregor that has been a "project" for an electrical boat......due to personal issues I moved to Europe so the Boat is still in "project" stage in Lake Tahoe California.
> nstoika@...
>

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RE: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite

 

This APPEASRS to be a shell ID where the user simply sets up several blogs, harvest information, and then load them up with advertisements.

 

Likely very hard to locate this person, but perhaps filing a complaint with Google can have an impact. (Click on the 'report Abuse' link at the top if his blog page.)

 

Unfortunately, as it is rater simple to create scripts to create blogs, and harvest information, and FREE to set them up – all the while collecting 'advertisement' $$ I suspect these type of 'shell' blogs will become more and more common….

 

-al-

 

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of electric_barge_boat
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:47 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite

 

 

Evidently the blogger goes by the name "Stevo". He lists 16 blogs ( http://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074 ) including the one that reposts each message to this group. Again, I'd like to cull this person from our roster, but don't know how to identify him. There's no match for "stevo".

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "electric_barge_boat" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> No---it only tells you who is the owner of blogspot.com.
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > wouldn't who is tell you who owns the domain?
> >
> > ...  How beautiful it is to do nothing, then rest afterwards
> >     
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Myles Twete <matwete@>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:19 AM
> > Subject: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Moderator Notice:
> >  
> > It has come to my attention that the messages in this group are being copied to an external blogsite:
> > It is my guess that one of our members is doing this copying or cloning.
> > If you know who is doing this, please let me know.
> > If it is you, please cease and desist and remove yourself from this group immediately.
> >  
> > While we do not restrict membership to this group, we do cull the membership of spammers and we try to protect the 4000+ members’ identities from spammers or bots as we can.  The only thing more I can think of to do is to change the list to a restricted membership group where I need to approve each new member and not just new member posts.
> >  
> > Suggestions can be emailed to me offline if you have any.
> > 1.       Again, whoever you are that is doing this (here’s the website tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com ), please stop this NOW.
> >
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite

 

Evidently the blogger goes by the name "Stevo". He lists 16 blogs ( http://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074 ) including the one that reposts each message to this group. Again, I'd like to cull this person from our roster, but don't know how to identify him. There's no match for "stevo".

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "electric_barge_boat" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> No---it only tells you who is the owner of blogspot.com.
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > wouldn't who is tell you who owns the domain?
> >
> > ...  How beautiful it is to do nothing, then rest afterwards
> >     
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Myles Twete <matwete@>
> > To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:19 AM
> > Subject: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Moderator Notice:
> >  
> > It has come to my attention that the messages in this group are being copied to an external blogsite:
> > It is my guess that one of our members is doing this copying or cloning.
> > If you know who is doing this, please let me know.
> > If it is you, please cease and desist and remove yourself from this group immediately.
> >  
> > While we do not restrict membership to this group, we do cull the membership of spammers and we try to protect the 4000+ members’ identities from spammers or bots as we can.  The only thing more I can think of to do is to change the list to a restricted membership group where I need to approve each new member and not just new member posts.
> >  
> > Suggestions can be emailed to me offline if you have any.
> > 1.       Again, whoever you are that is doing this (here’s the website tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com ), please stop this NOW.
> >
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite

 

No---it only tells you who is the owner of blogspot.com.

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Kirk McLoren <kirkmcloren@...> wrote:
>
>
> wouldn't who is tell you who owns the domain?
>
> ...  How beautiful it is to do nothing, then rest afterwards
>     
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Myles Twete <matwete@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 7:19 AM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Electric Boats messages being cloned to a blogsite
>
>
>
>  
>
> Moderator Notice:
>  
> It has come to my attention that the messages in this group are being copied to an external blogsite:
> It is my guess that one of our members is doing this copying or cloning.
> If you know who is doing this, please let me know.
> If it is you, please cease and desist and remove yourself from this group immediately.
>  
> While we do not restrict membership to this group, we do cull the membership of spammers and we try to protect the 4000+ members’ identities from spammers or bots as we can.  The only thing more I can think of to do is to change the list to a restricted membership group where I need to approve each new member and not just new member posts.
>  
> Suggestions can be emailed to me offline if you have any.
> 1.       Again, whoever you are that is doing this (here’s the website tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com ), please stop this NOW.
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: new system from scratch, am i on the right track please? [1 Attachment]

 
[Attachment(s) from Julian Webb included below]

Hi Eric

- I didn't give any boat details to "cloud the waters" in case my guesstimate of system was not right.
- Thanks for the input and yes I'm happy to pass on what works for me and what doesn't.
- I attach a pic of the boat. Her details are:

LOA = 10.3 M
Beam = 3.8 M
Draught = 1.2 M
Weight = 11.5 T
Hull speed = 7 knots (guessed by diesel usage calcs over 2 years by previous owner)
Hull = Displacement
Construction = Steel
Drives = 2 x 23" props driven by 50 HP Fordson D type diesels 2:1 reduced
Built = As Thames tender 1965

- I was hoping 2 x Aquamot (MA110) 11kW (48 VDC to controllers) AC motors belt reduced 2:1 to give 650 RPM at 144 Nm to each prop shaft would give me a good 6-7 knot hull speed.  http://www.aquamot.at/en/product-range/drives/shaft-drive.html

- Apart from the twice a year English Channel, Mediterranean coast hopping for a month, it will spend most of it's life doing 4 knots on the French and German canals, which is why I'm happy to swap higher cruising speed for the cheap/free electric drive lower speed for the canals.

- I was hoping to get a PolarDC Marine 20 kW 48 VDC genset but they're so busy they can do no more in 4-5 days than send an auto response apologising for being so busy.
- Do you know of anybody else? Or do I have to make my own with a Yanmar/Kubota diesel and proven Delco etc generators with the necessary off-the-shelf controller(s)?

- Batteries are a conundrum. Whether to spring for Lithium-Iron-Phosphate or just half decent semi/traction ones?

- All experience and suggestions gratefully received.

Cheers, Jules



On 30 April 2012 19:57, Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Hi julesproto (?)

Yes, you sound like you're on the right track. A DC generator is more efficient for charging and driving a DC system. Regular battery charger for shore charging, when available. DC-DC convertor for low voltage house loads and a DC-AC inverter for "shore type" appliances. Hot water from the generator with propane or electric boost seems reasonable.

You don't give any indication of the type or size of the boat that you're working with, so suggestions about your battery bank size, voltage or chemistry or any other component specifications are not really possible.

Hopefully, if you get any good information here, you'll "pay it forward" by sharing details of your success when your project is up and running. Many people don't share what works, which is why your research results have been "... so eclectic, contradictory, disjointed or just plain rare...". Much of the information on the inter-web comes from people trying to sell you something, so a decent percentage of that is exaggerated at best, and boldfaced lies at worst. This group's members have considerable electric conversion experience, and we really try to help anybody who is reasonably polite. Most of us have nothing to gain but happier fellow electric boat owners and better electric boat conversions out in the world.

Fair winds,
Eric
1964 Bermuda 30, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8kWh Lithium batteries
Marina del Rey, CA

"If you're not part of the solution, you may be part of the problem"


--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "julesproto" <julian.proto@...> wrote:
>
> pardon any lack of protocol but this is the first time i have ever joined a forum seeking practical advice.
> usually it's by going somewhere to get it first hand, trawling the net for data/spec sheets or off to a library, BUT what info is out there on electric drive systems is so eclectic, contradictory, disjointed or just plain rare that i admit although i'm pretty sure i am on the right track, i would very much appreciate and be grateful for any help or experience anyone can share, and i'm happy to return the favour.
>
> it seems better to use a diesel generator to produce DC with a large enough capacity to power the electric drive motor(s) directly for the times when i need cruising speed.
> this will let me get away from the "usual" AC output genset that has to be converted to DC before being sent to the motor controllers(s).
>
> add a battery bank of the same DC voltage as the generators output and the motor controllers input.
>
> add a single phase battery charger for shore power top up.
>
> add a 230 VAC output inverter to run the onboard appliances.
>
> if i can get my hot water from the genset that about finishes the system?
>
> if i am heading in the right direction, i will bore you with the boat details, but i thought i would get the theory right before moving on to the practice.
>
> thanking everyone in advance
>




--

Office: Unit 121, 21 Botanic Avenue, Botanic, Belfast BT7 1JJ, Northern Ireland, UNITED KINGDOM
Phone;  (+44)  02895 811251  -  Mobile;  (+44) 07427 696 796  -  Fax;  (+44) 0871 9898296
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Attachment(s) from Julian Webb

1 of 1 Photo(s)

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Re: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project

 

Hi Jeffrey,

A McGregor is certainly no worse that a number of boats that have been successfully converted. For many, a cheap, sound hull is all they need to get started, perfect for a DIY project. That said, I wouldn't put a Mastervolt system in it.... :)

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Gascho <dovetailnj@...> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>  
> In a Macgregor?
> Seems kinda like putting a Ferrari engine in a mid 80's Chrysler sedan, no?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Nick <nstoika@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:15 PM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Sail Boat project
>
>
>  
> I'm selling a 25 feet McGregor that has been a "project" for an electrical boat......due to personal issues I moved to Europe so the Boat is still in "project" stage in Lake Tahoe California.
> nstoika@...
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: new system from scratch, am i on the right track please?

 

Hi julesproto (?)

Yes, you sound like you're on the right track. A DC generator is more efficient for charging and driving a DC system. Regular battery charger for shore charging, when available. DC-DC convertor for low voltage house loads and a DC-AC inverter for "shore type" appliances. Hot water from the generator with propane or electric boost seems reasonable.

You don't give any indication of the type or size of the boat that you're working with, so suggestions about your battery bank size, voltage or chemistry or any other component specifications are not really possible.

Hopefully, if you get any good information here, you'll "pay it forward" by sharing details of your success when your project is up and running. Many people don't share what works, which is why your research results have been "... so eclectic, contradictory, disjointed or just plain rare...". Much of the information on the inter-web comes from people trying to sell you something, so a decent percentage of that is exaggerated at best, and boldfaced lies at worst. This group's members have considerable electric conversion experience, and we really try to help anybody who is reasonably polite. Most of us have nothing to gain but happier fellow electric boat owners and better electric boat conversions out in the world.

Fair winds,
Eric
1964 Bermuda 30, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8kWh Lithium batteries
Marina del Rey, CA

"If you're not part of the solution, you may be part of the problem"

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "julesproto" <julian.proto@...> wrote:
>
> pardon any lack of protocol but this is the first time i have ever joined a forum seeking practical advice.
> usually it's by going somewhere to get it first hand, trawling the net for data/spec sheets or off to a library, BUT what info is out there on electric drive systems is so eclectic, contradictory, disjointed or just plain rare that i admit although i'm pretty sure i am on the right track, i would very much appreciate and be grateful for any help or experience anyone can share, and i'm happy to return the favour.
>
> it seems better to use a diesel generator to produce DC with a large enough capacity to power the electric drive motor(s) directly for the times when i need cruising speed.
> this will let me get away from the "usual" AC output genset that has to be converted to DC before being sent to the motor controllers(s).
>
> add a battery bank of the same DC voltage as the generators output and the motor controllers input.
>
> add a single phase battery charger for shore power top up.
>
> add a 230 VAC output inverter to run the onboard appliances.
>
> if i can get my hot water from the genset that about finishes the system?
>
> if i am heading in the right direction, i will bore you with the boat details, but i thought i would get the theory right before moving on to the practice.
>
> thanking everyone in advance
>

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[Electric Boats] Re: new system from scratch, am i on the right track please?

 

Jules,

All great questions and plans. Back up a little to help us catch up with you. Context. What boat (type, size, year, condition, etc), what planned use (where, how often, how long, with whom, etc), what budget (time, money, patience, etc) ... bore us with the details.
Thanks for the learning opportunity,
Mark Stafford

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "julesproto" <julian.proto@...> wrote:
>
> pardon any lack of protocol but this is the first time i have ever joined a forum seeking practical advice.
> usually it's by going somewhere to get it first hand, trawling the net for data/spec sheets or off to a library, BUT what info is out there on electric drive systems is so eclectic, contradictory, disjointed or just plain rare that i admit although i'm pretty sure i am on the right track, i would very much appreciate and be grateful for any help or experience anyone can share, and i'm happy to return the favour.
>
> it seems better to use a diesel generator to produce DC with a large enough capacity to power the electric drive motor(s) directly for the times when i need cruising speed.
> this will let me get away from the "usual" AC output genset that has to be converted to DC before being sent to the motor controllers(s).
>
> add a battery bank of the same DC voltage as the generators output and the motor controllers input.
>
> add a single phase battery charger for shore power top up.
>
> add a 230 VAC output inverter to run the onboard appliances.
>
> if i can get my hot water from the genset that about finishes the system?
>
> if i am heading in the right direction, i will bore you with the boat details, but i thought i would get the theory right before moving on to the practice.
>
> thanking everyone in advance
>

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