Monday, May 31, 2010

Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Dave,

Do you know the "gear" ratio of your belt drive?

Thanks,
Eric

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Brooks <avantiman@...> wrote:
>
> Yes Eric et al, my system is 36 volts because the large sweeper batteries (3) just fit tightly into the previous engine space just aft of the companionway. The motor, controller etc. are for 36 or 48 volts. Roughly 5 hp electric with 6" advanced dc brushed motor. System bought complete from Spincraft Electric Boats, Ottawa, Canada....
> Dave
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Yes Eric et al, my system is 36 volts because the large sweeper batteries (3) just fit tightly into the previous engine space just aft of the companionway. The motor, controller etc. are for 36 or 48 volts.  Roughly 5 hp electric with 6" advanced dc brushed motor.  System bought complete from Spincraft Electric Boats, Ottawa, Canada.  I do get 4 mph at 25 amps, 5 mph at about 60 amps and top out at 6.4 to 6.7 mph at 100 amps.  It could be possibly better than that as I blew my ammeter during some rewiring so it might not show increased efficiency with cogged belts.   I do however have the gut feeling that an 11 x 14 prop MIGHT give me more speed, but experimenting costs about $380 Canadian for each new prop.  A lot of sailboats my size, 23 feet, use a much smaller diameter prop to keep drag down.  I do however have gobs of torque for manouvering.
Dave



From: Eric <ewdysar@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 1:11:41 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Hi Dave,

Your amp numbers seemed high for your size boat until I read in a previous post that you are only running 36V. Can you tell us a little more about your installation, i.e. motor, reduction ratio, batteries, etc.?

As Myles noted in another recent post, this forum seems to be one of very few places where objective data about electric conversions is available. The performance data that you provided is excellent, but doesn't have enough detail about the system to make it relevant to other potential EV converts.

Thanks,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Brooks <avantiman@...> wrote:
>
> What you may not be aware of is that "overpropping" ie. too much diameter or too much pitch will overload the motor at almost any speed or throttle position. I observed the following with my Helsen 23 motorsailer about 3500 pounds loaded. 9 x 6 two blade got 4 mph top speed at 60 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 8 three blade got 5 mph top speed at 75 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 15 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 150 amps and hot, hot.
> 12 x 13 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 100 amps , not hot with 2 v-belts.
> Same prop with cogged belt gets 6.7 mph in calm water.
> You should always prop to motor's continuous rating, in my case 100 amps at full throttle to not overload the motor. I can run with closed engine hatch for 3-4 hours straight and easily hold my hand on the motor. Cool also means reliable. Bigger may be hydronamically more efficient, but can cause overloading and death to electronics.
> Dave Brooks
>


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[Electric Boats] Helsen 23 conversion

 

Hi Dave,

Your amp numbers seemed high for your size boat until I read in a previous post that you are only running 36V. Can you tell us a little more about your installation, i.e. motor, reduction ratio, batteries, etc.?

As Myles noted in another recent post, this forum seems to be one of very few places where objective data about electric conversions is available. The performance data that you provided is excellent, but doesn't have enough detail about the system to make it relevant to other potential EV converts.

Thanks,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, David Brooks <avantiman@...> wrote:
>
> What you may not be aware of is that "overpropping" ie. too much diameter or too much pitch will overload the motor at almost any speed or throttle position. I observed the following with my Helsen 23 motorsailer about 3500 pounds loaded. 9 x 6 two blade got 4 mph top speed at 60 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 8 three blade got 5 mph top speed at 75 amps full throttle.
> 12 x 15 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 150 amps and hot, hot.
> 12 x 13 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 100 amps , not hot with 2 v-belts.
> Same prop with cogged belt gets 6.7 mph in calm water.
> You should always prop to motor's continuous rating, in my case 100 amps at full throttle to not overload the motor. I can run with closed engine hatch for 3-4 hours straight and easily hold my hand on the motor. Cool also means reliable. Bigger may be hydronamically more efficient, but can cause overloading and death to electronics.
> Dave Brooks
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

What you may not be aware of is that "overpropping"  ie. too much diameter or too much pitch will overload the motor at almost any speed or throttle position.  I observed the following with my Helsen 23 motorsailer about 3500 pounds loaded.   9 x 6 two blade got 4 mph top speed at 60 amps full throttle.
12 x 8 three blade got 5 mph top speed at 75 amps full throttle.
12 x 15 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 150 amps and hot, hot.
12 x 13 three blade got 6.4 mph top speed at 100 amps , not hot with 2 v-belts.
Same prop with cogged belt gets 6.7 mph in calm water.
You should always prop to motor's continuous rating, in my case 100 amps at full throttle to not overload the motor.   I can run with closed engine hatch for 3-4 hours straight and easily hold my hand on the motor.   Cool also means reliable.   Bigger may be hydronamically more efficient, but can cause overloading and death to electronics.
Dave Brooks



From: aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 10:53:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

Thanks James, I had one before - not marine rated - which self destructed. But I had hopes to be able to add enough heatsink for passive cooling to work. (what I really want is to bolt it to a water heater! :)

I run normally at 40amps - but 40kts on the nose required 100 - luckily for only about a minute to clear the seawall. I am wondering if lowering the pitch on my prop would make sense? It's a 13x13 3-blade and I can definitely exceed max amps at full throttle. If I am understanding all the prop/pitch posts correctly that should give me more oomph (bollard pull?) at the cost of less top speed (which I never use anyway)

-Keith

(sorry to the southers - heading out again today in some epic spring weather - you can brag come December)


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Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

Almost all boats have batteries (and some have kilowatt AC inverters to boot..) - many cruising boats carry house banks in the same range as ours...

So is the extra battery power in say a worst-case scenario like the contactor fusing, a serious concern? I can see in feshwater it would be - where a human body is a conductor - but in saltwater I'm more of an insulator...But I do have a physical cutoff I can reach from the cockpit.

Getting "bit" is always scary, but I would think a fire is a much more likely scenario for any of us.

Nigel Calder has a good article in this months Sail about the need for better fuses when dealing with high-discharge battery banks like li-ion and his favorite TPPL's.

I'm working out how to fuse my "buddy banks" per Myles's recent post - two good batteries ganging up on a shorted mate didn't sound like a recipe for happiness.

-Keith

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, "Myles Twete" <matwete@...> wrote:
>
> Here's the thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=115277 .6
> posts, 4 posters.
>
> -mt
>
>
>
> From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Rob Johnson
> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 3:57 PM
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend
>
>
>
>
>
> On the wooden boat forum , there is a thread at the moment on safety in
> electric boats .
>
> One bloke posted of rescueing someone whose electric powered boat was
> swamped , and of copping an electric shock , and being afraid of battery
> acid spilling around.
>
> Maybe you experienced people should check in , and maybe comment.
>
> Regards Rob J.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@...>
> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, 30 May, 2010 3:29:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend
>
> It's the controller - and yes it just starts ramping down the amperage to
> cool off, but that can happen at inopportune times. I added a fan today and
> that helps - I've got a Sevcon PMAC mounted on 3/8 alum plate which in turn
> has a heatsink - all connected with that gooey thermal grease. I have a spot
> infrared sensor and it was showing about 200F on the face of the controller
> when it went into shutdown.
>
> I think the 'sensor' on my motor overheating is molten copper being thrown
> about ;) (it's the Mars brushless)
>
> And BTW...it wasn't all seriousness today - after I got some good work done
> I went out and had one of the best sails I've had in months! T-shirt &
> shorts in 15kts steady (a far cry from last weekend)
>
> -K
>
> --- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, James Massey <jcmassey@> wrote:
> >
> > G'day Keith, All
> >
> > At 04:02 AM 30/05/2010, Keith wrote:
> > >We've lost 3 good sailors here in CA recently, so I'm spending the
> > >weekend upgrading my safety profile. <snip>
> > >I still can't sustain > 60amps without overheating, so that's a concern.
> >
> > Which component/components can't sustain 60 amps? I'd assume only the
> > controller or motor could overheat and tell you (anything else would
> > just melt down and stop)?
> >
> > Care to give a basic system description, or do you already have it in
> > hand? (If you have it in hand already, please describe your mods).
> >
> > A controller usually just goes into a shut-down mode, but motors are
> > often suffering by the time their thermal switch comes on, so if it's
> > the motor you'll probably want to do something about it soon.
> >
> > What are the options to add cooling?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > [Technik] James
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

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Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

Thanks James, I had one before - not marine rated - which self destructed. But I had hopes to be able to add enough heatsink for passive cooling to work. (what I really want is to bolt it to a water heater! :)

I run normally at 40amps - but 40kts on the nose required 100 - luckily for only about a minute to clear the seawall. I am wondering if lowering the pitch on my prop would make sense? It's a 13x13 3-blade and I can definitely exceed max amps at full throttle. If I am understanding all the prop/pitch posts correctly that should give me more oomph (bollard pull?) at the cost of less top speed (which I never use anyway)

-Keith

(sorry to the southers - heading out again today in some epic spring weather - you can brag come December)

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Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

Matt:
 
Sorry to hear your season is ending. I never think of winter when I think of your area of the world.  I'm a little late getting in the water this year myself but, also not rushing it either. Taking care of some projects that did not get done over the winter due to the snows we had. Like installing a helm wiring access port so I can easily route the throttle, key and other cables to the helm position and remove or change them easier. I'm also repositioning one of the wind generator support poles so that it does not rub on the main sheet on certain positions of sail. I'm also extending a Bimini to allow the installation of two 48 volt solar panels for charging the battery bank.  Only had one operating last year.
 
Now as far as safety. I just posted about my YIKES moment when I was installing my electric propulsion system. If I had not spent so much time down below in the electric propulsion install I might not have found out about this problem until it was too late. You can see what I discovered here:
 
When thinking about safety don't neglect the boats basic systems. Also don't always rely on the mechanical or electrical propulsion systems if you are in a sailboat. Have a backup plan whenever you can.
 

--- On Mon, 5/31/10, Matthew Geier <matthew@acfr.usyd.edu.au> wrote:

From: Matthew Geier <matthew@acfr.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 5:48 AM

 
On 31/05/10 12:59, James Massey wrote:
>
> Aaahh.. Northern Hemisphere, coming into late spring. Here we've
> mostly put away the summer toys...
>

I pulled the motor and controller out of my boat for dry indoor
storage over the winter this weekend - after one of the wettest May's
for many years. My boat probably won't be out of the driveway again till
mid/late October. It has to move by November, I need to get the trailer
inspected to renew it's registration....

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Sunday, May 30, 2010

RE: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

Here’s the thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=115277 …6 posts, 4 posters.

-mt

 

From: electricboats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Johnson
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 3:57 PM
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

 

On the wooden boat forum , there is a thread at the moment on safety in electric boats .

One bloke posted of rescueing someone whose electric powered boat was swamped , and of copping an electric shock , and being afraid of battery acid spilling around.

Maybe you experienced people should check in , and maybe comment.

Regards Rob J.

 


From: aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com>
To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 30 May, 2010 3:29:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

It's the controller - and yes it just starts ramping down the amperage to cool off, but that can happen at inopportune times. I added a fan today and that helps - I've got a Sevcon PMAC mounted on 3/8 alum plate which in turn has a heatsink - all connected with that gooey thermal grease. I have a spot infrared sensor and it was showing about 200F on the face of the controller when it went into shutdown.

I think the 'sensor' on my motor overheating is molten copper being thrown about ;) (it's the Mars brushless)

And BTW...it wasn't all seriousness today - after I got some good work done I went out and had one of the best sails I've had in months! T-shirt & shorts in 15kts steady (a far cry from last weekend)

-K

--- In electricboats@yahoogroups.com, James Massey <jcmassey@...> wrote:
>
> G'day Keith, All
>
> At 04:02 AM 30/05/2010, Keith wrote:
> >We've lost 3 good sailors here in CA recently, so I'm spending the
> >weekend upgrading my safety profile. <snip>
> >I still can't sustain > 60amps without overheating, so that's a concern.
>
> Which component/components can't sustain 60 amps? I'd assume only the
> controller or motor could overheat and tell you (anything else would
> just melt down and stop)?
>
> Care to give a basic system description, or do you already have it in
> hand? (If you have it in hand already, please describe your mods).
>
> A controller usually just goes into a shut-down mode, but motors are
> often suffering by the time their thermal switch comes on, so if it's
> the motor you'll probably want to do something about it soon.
>
> What are the options to add cooling?
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>




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Re: [Electric Boats] Safety weekend

 

On 31/05/10 12:59, James Massey wrote:
>
> Aaahh.. Northern Hemisphere, coming into late spring. Here we've
> mostly put away the summer toys...
>

I pulled the motor and controller out of my boat for dry indoor
storage over the winter this weekend - after one of the wettest May's
for many years. My boat probably won't be out of the driveway again till
mid/late October. It has to move by November, I need to get the trailer
inspected to renew it's registration....

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