tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-52719399442222602912012-01-31T05:34:03.297-08:00T-Pain Is On A BoatStevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.comBlogger95001100tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-1569823445891755982012-01-31T05:33:00.000-08:002012-01-31T05:34:03.346-08:00[Electric Boats] Re: House boat conversion<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Hi Geoff,<br> Your EY map data is a little off. I'm the Dealer in Boynton Beach who sold the twin motors, but they are neither installed yet nor in the state of Florida. The customer is a member of this board and he can pipe up if he so desires, but there is no speed/watts data on the project yet.<br> Todd<br> www.epowermarine.com<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "runneribe42" <geoffgamsby@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Greetings David,<br> > <br> > I work with electric Yacht and we have "electrified" a 41' houseboat in Florida. We would be glad to give you some more info and help you figure out the best set-up for your boat. <br> > <br> > Here is a map of your customers <a href="http://eyacht.straightturn.net/node/8">http://eyacht.straightturn.net/node/8</a> you can search the webpage and find the info on the houseboat<br> > <br> > geoff<br> > www.straightturn.net/sailing<br> > <br> > --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "David" <dchial@> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > Hi, I`m David a long time reader first time w/a <br> > > request for information. I have A38 ft X 12 ft <br> > > River Queen house boat, steel hull around 14,000<br> > > lbs. lookin` to electrify it. I tried emailing <br> > > elco and a few others and they didn`t seem to want<br> > > help. I do have a basic Idea what has to be done, <br> > > does anyone know of a co. that helps<br> > > the little guy?? David<br> > ><br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:todd@rumblecity.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMzk3NWNmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyODAxNjgzOA--?act=reply&messageNum=20775">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb3Y0Y2VqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyODAxNjgzOA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2dmp1NnNtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyODAxNjgzOAR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">9</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmOGt2amtwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjgwMTY4Mzg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">13</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTdpY2VtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyODAxNjgzOA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb3J0Y2F0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI4MDE2ODM4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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The windage is certainly less than many houseboats I've seen, and there is a lot of room on that upper deck for solar panels. It might actually make a pretty good electric conversion depending on intended usage and budget. Might be worth some more study. I'd like to see some numbers on that big one in Florida too. I'll bet he has one helluva battery bank!<br> <br> Jim<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:luv2bsailin@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxODdwcWJnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzc0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2NTM4MA--?act=reply&messageNum=20774">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldGpvcThkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2NTM4MA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2czgyaGlwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzc0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2NTM4MAR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">8</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJma2ZucG9pBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NjUzODA-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">12</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjltc24zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2NTM4MA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaGZzM2pmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTY1Mzgw" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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With two ibl360 motors, if they are running 48V systems, then they've got 34kW of drive power on tap (assuming 360A x 48V). With 34kW of drive in a 13 ton boat, they've got more than enough for displacement mode, I would be interested to hear if they can get past the bow wave into any sort of planing or semi-planing mode.<br> <br> Since people show up asking if converting a houseboat to electric is feasible, it would be great if you could post any sort of watts to knots or top speed performance for this boat. With load to speed numbers, figuring the range is pretty simple for various size battery packs.<br> <br> Referring to other posts, it takes very little power to move large floating objects at slow speed. Old school fitness guru, Jack LaLanne used to tow various things on his birthdays to show that he was still in shape. Here's a few of those events: <br> <br> 1957 (age 43): swam the Golden Gate channel while towing a 2,500-pound (1,100 kg; 180 st) cabin cruiser. The swift ocean currents turned this one-mile (1.6 km) swim into a swimming distance of 6.5 miles (10.5 km)<br> <br> 1974 (age 60): For the second time, he swam from Alcatraz Island to Fisherman's Wharf. Again, he was handcuffed, but this time he was also shackled and towed a 1,000-pound (450 kg; 71 st) boat. At least that's according to his website. However, according to an account of this event published the day after it occurred in the Los Angeles Times, written by Philip Hager, a Times staff writer, LaLanne was neither handcuffed nor shackled if each of those terms has the unconventional meaning of "tightly binding the wrists or ankles together with a pair of metal fasteners" although that's not how handcuffs or shackles work. Hager says that LaLanne "had his hands and feet bound with cords that allowed minimal freedom". But "minimal" clearly did not mean "no" freedom, since elsewhere in the article Hager describes LaLanne's method of propulsion through the water as "half-breast-stroke, half-dog paddle" which is how you swim with your hands tied.<br> <br> 1976 (age 62): To commemorate the "Spirit of '76", United States Bicentennial, he swam one mile (1.6 km) in Long Beach Harbor. He was handcuffed and shackled, and he towed 13 boats (representing the 13 original colonies) containing 76 people.<br> <br> 1979 (age 65): towed 65 boats in Lake Ashinoko, near Tokyo, Japan. He was handcuffed and shackled, and the boats were filled with 6,500 pounds (2,900 kg; 460 st) of Louisiana Pacific wood pulp.<br> <br> 1980 (age 66): towed 10 boats in North Miami, Florida. The boats carried 77 people, and he towed them for over one mile (1.6 km) in less than one hour.<br> <br> 1984 (age 70): handcuffed, shackled, and fighting strong winds and currents, towed 70 rowboats, one with several guests, from the Queen's Way Bridge in the Long Beach Harbor to the Queen Mary, 1 mile.<br> <br> Obviously, his maximum power output in this configuration is pretty low. But for each of these stunts, while he wasn't fast, he did have the endurance to complete the swim (and a chase crew in case he got too tired).<br> <br> This proves that small motors can move large boats in calm conditions, but for basic marine safety, we should have enough power to manueuver in adverse (not extreme) conditions. That's where this group's guideline of 1kW of power for each ton of displacement comes from. This will typically provide 90-95% of hull speed in calm conditions and seems to give reasonable power in less than ideal conditions. On the other hand, houseboats have considerable windage for their displacement and may need more power to handle crosswinds safely. So I'm really interested in hearing how the Boynton Beach houseboat handles in the real world now that it is electric.<br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> Marina del Rey, CA <br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "runneribe42" <geoffgamsby@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Greetings David,<br> > <br> > I work with electric Yacht and we have "electrified" a 41' houseboat in Florida. We would be glad to give you some more info and help you figure out the best set-up for your boat. <br> > <br> > Here is a map of your customers <a href="http://eyacht.straightturn.net/node/8">http://eyacht.straightturn.net/node/8</a> you can search the webpage and find the info on the houseboat<br> > <br> > geoff<br> > www.straightturn.net/sailing<br> > <br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYTJkZWVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2MDM3Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=20773">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcW9rbTFnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2MDM3Nw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cG1sOGJuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2MDM3NwR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">7</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmaDhvZzZrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NjAzNzc-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">12</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJla2ZybG45BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk2MDM3Nw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNjg3N3BpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTYwMzc3" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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We would be glad to give you some more info and help you figure out the best set-up for your boat. <br> <br> Here is a map of your customers <a href="http://eyacht.straightturn.net/node/8">http://eyacht.straightturn.net/node/8</a> you can search the webpage and find the info on the houseboat<br> <br> geoff<br> www.straightturn.net/sailing<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "David" <dchial@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi, I`m David a long time reader first time w/a <br> > request for information. I have A38 ft X 12 ft <br> > River Queen house boat, steel hull around 14,000<br> > lbs. lookin` to electrify it. I tried emailing <br> > elco and a few others and they didn`t seem to want<br> > help. I do have a basic Idea what has to be done, <br> > does anyone know of a co. that helps<br> > the little guy?? David<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:geoffgamsby@mac.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNmdka2swBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzcyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1NjE5MQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20772">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldXZoMTNoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1NjE5MQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2NWtvN25jBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzcyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1NjE5MQR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">6</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMm4zMmdzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NTYxOTE-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">12</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJldHRoYjVlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1NjE5MQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMjBpOXB0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTU2MTkx" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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(maybe have a sailboat tow ya?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I might have some sympathy for the 4hp engine that might not have had a chance to spin up to produce a little power.. but hey I wasnt there to see it happening either, and can only suspect it being the situation with the little engine struggling to even get to 3k rpm..</DIV> <DIV>theres some with 4-5 pitch high thrust props too of course, are hard to drag down!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pretty impressed with a 30lb trolling motor moving your houseboat at 1mph,</DIV> <DIV>thats a heck of a load! I dont know if it'd be helpful or not, but over at "hannu's boatyard" site he has a whole bunch of his little rowboats graphed out "speed vs resistance". its different for bigger heavier longer wider etc, but maybe still relevant too for low speed ballpark calculations. the other basic ballpark calculator I like a lot is:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm">http://go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm</A></DIV> <DIV>sure its intended for planing speedboats, but its fairly decent about things like "900lbs with 0.35hp and a hull constant of 225 (default and maybe good rep of displacement)..</DIV> <DIV>equals ______ potential mph speed". knocking about 15-20% off, is pretty fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>next curiosity.. would a parabolic dish mirror heating a pressure vessel boiler to a small steam engine be maybe more productive go-go than photovoltaic to electric motor power?</DIV> <DIV>theres a few youtube video's exploring that, solar steam boiler to engine to generator, the guy is making some pretty decent Kw from it! sunshine dependant of course, but solar boiler to steam engine would run for free on windless days when sailboats cant..</DIV> <DIV>theres a video of a kid who coated a TV dish with small bits of mirror, it was igniting everything he held in its sweet spot within seconds.<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 1/30/12, Steamboat Willie <I><stmbtwle@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;"><BR>From: Steamboat Willie <stmbtwle@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: House boat conversion<BR>To: "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com><BR>Date: Monday, January 30, 2012, 1:42 PM<BR><BR> <DIV id="yiv1069539265"> <DIV><SPAN> </SPAN> <DIV id="yiv1069539265ygrp-text"> <DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff;FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif;COLOR: #000;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"> <DIV>I can see why a lot of them don't want to help; a houseboat is a big boxy contraption (I have one about your size) and it's going to take a LOT of power to move it very fast and a lot of BATTERY to go very far. Just for a lark one day I tried to push mine with a 30# electric trolling motor; I got ONE mph average going both ways in a dead calm, so yes it's possible. For comparison on the same day I tried a 4 hp gas outboard; I got TWO mph under the same conditions. </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>For starters I'd borrow a dinghy with a gas outboard (10 hp or so) and see just how fast you can push that houseboat. That will at least give you an idea of how much horsepower is needed to go X mph. It's a rough guess but it's a start. Some one of the experts on here can probably take that number and give you an estimate of how many KW of motor it'll take. Then you have to figure how far you want to go and how much battery power it'll take to get there. Then IF you're still interested you can start comparing different types of drives.<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Every time I buy diesel I dream how nice it would be to install an electric drive and push my boat with solar power, but every time I do the math it gets pretty discouraging. </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Bill<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></div></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:rekkamurd@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYmdtaWNwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzcxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1MzY3OA--?act=reply&messageNum=20771">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZmszNTliBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1MzY3OA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2OXY0aGppBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzcxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1MzY3OAR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">5</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmM2FyNm9rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NTM2Nzg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">12</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlazZrZ3NjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk1MzY3OA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNGg3OWVlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTUzNjc4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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Just for a lark one day I tried to push mine with a 30# electric trolling motor; I got ONE mph average going both ways in a dead calm, so yes it's possible. For comparison on the same day I tried a 4 hp gas outboard; I got TWO mph under the same conditions. </div><div><br></div><div>For starters I'd borrow a dinghy with a gas outboard (10 hp or so) and see just how fast you can push that houseboat. That will at least give you an idea of how much horsepower is needed to go X mph. It's a rough guess but it's a start. Some one of the experts on here can probably take that number and give you an estimate of how many KW of motor it'll take. Then you have to figure how far you want to go and how much battery power it'll take to get there. Then IF you're still interested you can start comparing different types of drives.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Every time I buy diesel I dream how nice it would be to install an electric drive and push my boat with solar power, but every time I do the math it gets pretty discouraging. </div><div><br></div><div>Bill<br></div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:stmbtwle@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYXVma2ZjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzcwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0OTAzOA--?act=reply&messageNum=20770">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb2ZiYTJzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0OTAzOA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MXRiZXBoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzcwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0OTAzOAR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">4</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdWZoMDA5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NDkwMzg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">12</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDRxZmY1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0OTAzOA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZWowYWNhBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTQ5MDM4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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Looks like a cool design. What does it currently have for power, and what are your speed and range requirements? Switching to electric works well for many sailboats and efficient displacement hulls with modest range requirements. There are systems on the market that would move your hull at reasonable displacement speeds, but battery range is always a limitation. You might be a good candidate for a hybrid system, using a moderate size diesel genset to provide house power and charge your propulsion batteries.<br> Jim<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "David" <dchial@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi, I`m David a long time reader first time w/a <br> > request for information. I have A38 ft X 12 ft <br> > River Queen house boat, steel hull around 14,000<br> > lbs. lookin` to electrify it. I tried emailing <br> > elco and a few others and they didn`t seem to want<br> > help. I do have a basic Idea what has to be done, <br> > does anyone know of a co. that helps<br> > the little guy?? David<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:luv2bsailin@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdjFhYmhnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0Nzg2MA--?act=reply&messageNum=20769">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMzd0bDZoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0Nzg2MA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MTNnaDMxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0Nzg2MAR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">3</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMDdvamhtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NDc4NjA-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">12</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWtiZ2JsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0Nzg2MA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-mkp" style="border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; clear: both; float: left; font-family: Arial; margin: 5px 0 10px 0; padding: 0 10px;"> <div id="hd" style="color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0;">MARKETPLACE</div> <div id="ads" style="margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div class="ad" style="color: #628C2A; font-family: Arial; font-weight: 700; padding: 0 0;"> <p><a href="http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15odn64pj/M=493064.14543979.14562481.13298430/D=groups/S=1705884090:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1327955061/L=a106a9ac-4b6f-11e1-becd-a3451e043b5b/B=y5PvEdj8fXM-/J=1327947861357125/K=g8jNVVziQpaks_uuL.JJyg/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj">Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! 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I need to change either to a newer diesel or be brave and go electric. <br> <br> The boat lives in Chichester Marina (UK). Re-charging would be easy. I rarely go out for more than 6 hours. Most of this is spent in the harbour where the speed limit is 8 knots (can't reach that anyway). Tidal streams and wind can be quite strong ( tide 5-6 knots at times).<br> <br> The boat has quite a lot of ballast in it so changing this for a good sized array of batteries would not be a problem. There is plenty of room. Prop is three bladed, turning at 1500 rpm. Not sure of size or pitch. I could even have room to accomodate some sort of generator set as a 'get you home' if needed.<br> <br> I have two questions to start with:<br> <br> Is electric power viable for such an application bearing in mind the need to push against the tide?<br> <br> Is there anyone around my area who has done such a conversion?<br> <br> Many thanks in advance<br> <br> Michael<br> (Bobolink)<br> <br> </p> </div> <!-- end group email --> </div></blockquote></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:james@deny.org?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Looking%20at%20the%20options" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Looking%20at%20the%20options"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxb3BuZ2FuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2NDE1OA--?act=reply&messageNum=20768">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWJpcjg3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2NDE1OA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20766;_ylc=X3oDMTM2dDBvZm9jBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2NDE1OAR0cGNJZAMyMDc2Ng--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">2</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbDAyMzM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc4NjQxNTg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOW80ZHI0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2NDE1OA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcGt0MTZjBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3ODY0MTU4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I have A38 ft X 12 ft <br> River Queen house boat, steel hull around 14,000<br> lbs. lookin` to electrify it. I tried emailing <br> elco and a few others and they didn`t seem to want<br> help. I do have a basic Idea what has to be done, <br> does anyone know of a co. that helps<br> the little guy?? 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It uses approx same volume but at high power delivers more run time and a more responsive motor. As a bonus they take less energy to recharge. A difference is lipo require different, new, care procedures which must be adhered to. <br> <br> Weight and volume <br> <br> Lipo has a far higher energy per kg which means it makes a much lighter power pack. <br> <br> Comparing Panasonic's excellent LC-XC1238AP and the EST100 50 25<br> <br> Panasonic LC = 16kg 12V*38Ah = 456Wh or 1kwh/32kg of mass using to<br> EST100 = 45kg 52V*100Ah = 4200Wh or 1kwh/11kg of mass <br> <br> Packs of similar capacity and voltage weigh:<br> <br> Panasonic 48V x 114Ah = 192kg <br> EPS100 50V x 100Ah = 45kg i.e. ¼ the mass <br> <br> Each pack is similar in volume at 68.25 litres for the Panasonic and 65.5 litres for the EPS100.<br> <br> Rated vs available power<br> <br> Like all lead acids deep cycle run better when used to 50% discharge level. Lipo can run to 90% discharge at lower rates for virtually their entire service life.<br> <br> The Panasonic pack is limited to a continuous discharge of about 1C or 5.5kw and peaks of about 14.5kw e.g. a starting peak of ICE . <br> <br> The EST100 give the normal discharge rate as 1C/100amps/5.3Kw with peaks of 8C i.e. 800amps/33.6Kw i.e. 1 sec spikes.<br> <br> The standard discharge rates / depth of discharge for a long lived lead acid (50%) and lipo (80-90%) give striking results also.<br> <br> Panasonic discharging at 1C=114 amps is empty at 38.4v after 35 minutes. However, 50% discharge means a practical service life and at 114 amps gives 17 minutes run time. During discharge output start at 5500w and end at 4400w <br> <br> Assuming the EST 100 can give only 80% of its rated capacity before cut off; at 114 amps the EST will be empty at 42v after approx 42 minutes. During discharge output start at 6300w and end at 4800w.<br> <br> More practical still supposing a boat draws 500 watts.<br> <br> At 50.4v/9.92 amps discharge the Panasonic has a capacity for 689 minutes and at half discharge 345 minutes or 5hr 44min; <br> <br> At low power the EST100 voltage is up too and at 51.8v/9.65 amps it now has 90% of its rated capacity available, enough for 559 minutes or 9hr 20 minutes. <br> <br> At high discharge rates the lipo runs up to 2.5 times longer at an average of 10% more power; at low power it runs up to 62% longer.<br> <br> These figures suggest a lipo pack with 60% of the capacity of a lead acid pack could match its run time performance in all but long term high rate output; at 15% of the mass and . <br> <br> Efficiency and Maintenance <br> <br> Finally lead acid uses more energy to reach an equivalent charge. Pb uses about 25% more energy than rated capacity to charge. Lipos use a couple of percent more. So lead acid uses 23% more energy than the same capacity lipo. So the Pana pack takes 6840wh to charge and the ETS about 6100wh.<br> <br> The above figures suggest for the same voltage a lipo pack 60% of the capacity of a lead acid, in this case 70Ah, would safety deliver the performance of a 114Ah lead acid at a mere 15% of the mass. 60% of the charge costs and 40% less space. Sounds better the smaller the boat.<br> <br> Add to this the lipos mentioned come with a charging system which manages the cells full time so balance between cells does not become an issue and a warning system if it does. Lead acids do not have this safety / maintenance feature. <br> <br> An then...lipos will not tolerate screw ups in charging. Go over 4.25v and the battery dies; discharge below 2.7v per cell and it dies; leave them fully charged for 3 months and they will suffer at least 10% permanent power and capacity loss; leave them in hot storage and they will age faster losing up to 10% capacity per year. <br> <br> Or you can keep the cool and let the battery management do its job. Also charge to only 95% of capacity and you will markedly extend the life of the pack and avoid even the remotest over charging risks. <br> <br> Andrew Gilchrist<br> fastelectrics.com<br> <br> ----- Original Message -----<br> From: Bill Heintz [mailto:<a href="mailto:bheintz%40wans.net">bheintz@wans.net</a>]<br> To: <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a><br> Sent: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:47:51 -0500<br> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<br> <br> On Jan 26, 2012, at 09:44, martin demers wrote:<br> > I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in <br> > boats<br> <br> A very good question Martin. [and I'm not sure I am qualified to <br> answer ;)]<br> <br> I chose AGM (lead acid) batteries for my boat for pragmatic reasons:<br> <br> I'm not a battery expert, and where I hope to travel, I don't suppose <br> I will find a whole lot. AGM's were a smaller initial investment, it <br> is easier to charge, and [I think] I understand the chemistry of it <br> enough to charge them properly and keep them sufficiently maintained. <br> If I travel and need a replacement, I can quickly get a replacement. <br> Until my wallet starts to get too heavy I will probably stick with <br> lead acid.<br> <br> On oversimplified comparison . . .<br> <br> Lead Acid: (includes flooded, SLA, VRLA, AGM, and GEL)<br> <br> Advantages: cheaper, proven technology, easy to replace, chargers are <br> readily available, a large bank of batteries can be charged all in <br> series, no memory, high over-charge tolerance<br> Limitations: heavy (30-50 wh/kg), cannot be left in a low-discharged <br> condition, a deep cell battery has perhaps 300 cycles, high internal <br> resistance, takes a while to charge (8-16 hrs), contains Lead<br> <br> Li-Polymer: (LiCoO2, LiMn2O4, LiFePO4, LiNiMnCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2, and <br> Li4Ti5O12 to name a few see Notes below)<br> <br> Advantages: lighter (100-130 wh/kg), can be made environmentally <br> friendly (no Pb, Cd, or Hg), 1,000+ cycles, no memory, lowest internal <br> resistance of rechargeable batteries, faster charge (2-4 hrs)<br> Limitations: expensive, charging properly is critical, chargers are <br> expensive, (each cell needs to be monitored and charged individually <br> when charging), low over-charge tolerance, hard to find a dealer that <br> will sell you one suitable for a DIY-EV boat (24-48vdc boats are <br> either too big or too small)<br> <br> In the Title Post, the battery chemistry refers to Lithium Nickel <br> Manganese Cobalt LiNiMnCoO2 (NMC)<br> <br> Notes on Lithium Ion (Li-ion) and and Lithium Polymer (Li-po)?:<br> <br> . Scientists and the media give Li-ion batteries unique names but <br> unless you are a scientist, this might cause confusion.<br> <br> . The polymer hype of the early 2000s is still going strong, however <br> most users cannot distinguish between a regular Li-ion and one with <br> polymer architecture.<br> <br> . All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator <br> with moisture. The correct term is "Lithium-ion Polymer" (Li-ion <br> polymer or Li-polymer for short.)<br> <br> . Li-polymer can be build on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li- <br> phosphate and Li-manganese.<br> <br> . As far the consumer is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially <br> the sam as the lithium ion battery.<br> <br> ? - Batteries in a Portable World - Isidor Bunchmann - pp. 59-60. <br> See also "Battery Types" on www.BatteryUniversity.com, an up-to-date <br> reference for comparing different battery chemistries.<br> <br> Types of Li-ion batteries: Table 2-10?<br> <br> Chemical name<br> Material<br> Abbreviation<br> Short form<br> Notes<br> Lithium Cobalt Oxide1<br> Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt)<br> LiCoO2<br> (60% Co)<br> LCO<br> Li-cobalt<br> <br> High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera<br> Lithium<br> Manganese Oxide1<br> Also Lithium Manganate<br> or lithium-ion-manganese<br> LiMn2O4<br> LMO<br> Li-manganese, or spinel<br> <br> Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and <br> long life.<br> Power tools,<br> e-bikes, EV, medical, hobbyist.<br> Lithium<br> Iron Phosphate1<br> LiFePO4<br> LFP<br> Li-phosphate<br> Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide1,also lithium-manganese-cobalt- <br> oxide<br> LiNiMnCoO2<br> (10-20% Co)<br> NMC<br> NMC<br> <br> Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide1<br> LiNiCoAlO2<br> 9% Co)<br> NCA<br> NCA<br> Gaining importance<br> in electric powertrain and grid storage<br> Lithium Titanate2<br> Li4Ti5O12<br> LTO<br> Li-titanate<br> Table 1: Reference names for Li-ion batteries. We will use the short <br> form when appropriate.<br> 1 Cathode material 2 Anode material<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:andrew@fastelectrics.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNTVnajY0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzYyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzgxNzczMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20762">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZzFtdGhxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzgxNzczMw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZWo3bTF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzYyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzgxNzczMwR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">20</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmaXA1bWphBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc4MTc3MzM-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMmxlbzVuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzgxNzczMw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZTNzdGlzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3ODE3NzMz" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I decided some time ago to go<br> electric, and have picked up so much info. from the forum - especially<br> from Eric (many, many thanks Eric for your input - I'm sure others<br> really appreciate that)<br> I have 2 Sillette-Sonic saildrives, and should soon receive 2 180ibl<br> motors w/belt reduction from Scott at Electric Yacht, who has been<br> very helpful.<br> I'm going with 15" fixed props (for re-gen.) I've had to mount the<br> drives at an angle inboard of each hull, as I've only built 5" mini<br> keels, and I want to be able to beach the boat for bottom<br> cleaning/service etc. I didn't want to mount on centreline, because it<br> would have meant them being mounted just in front of rudders (hull<br> shape) So they are exposed to some extent to logs, etc. I live in<br> B.C., where the logging industry is a little lax about cleaning up<br> their 'escapees'.<br> I'm planning to use LiFePo4 batts., as they are really the only choice<br> (at the moment) for lightweight cats. Scott has recommended 230 Ahr.<br> banks for traction.<br> I hopefully will be sailing south to the warm areas of the Pacific<br> some time next year when I'm finished building; so I will also have a<br> small gas generator for emergency power for the motors. Down the line<br> I'll add a few solar panels to add to charging for house & traction<br> banks.<br> As you already have drive lines in the boat; you should be able to<br> adapt motors to your existing drives; but you may have to re-prop.<br> If I can help with any more info., let me know.<br> Graham<br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:grahammcglashan@gmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20Catamaran%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Catamaran%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbnNidGxtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzYxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzc3NjYwMQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20761">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlazJuaWFpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzc3NjYwMQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20761;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cTkzczRoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzYxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzc3NjYwMQR0cGNJZAMyMDc2MQ--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">1</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMm92ZDAzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc3NzY2MDE-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">13</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjBwdG9lBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzc3NjYwMQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZGdqbmg3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3Nzc2NjAx" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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So, until a certain point, battery weight is not a major factor. since it replaces a 350 lbs diesel engine with gearbox, unless I also install a diesel generator to run a longer time on the electric motor.<BR> <BR> Martin.<BR> <BR> <DIV> <DIV id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></DIV> <HR id="stopSpelling"> To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com<BR>From: nedfarinholt@comcast.net<BR>Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:29:03 -0500<BR>Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<BR><BR> <SPAN> </SPAN> <DIV id="ecxygrp-mlmsg"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-msg"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-text"> Martin, <DIV>Let me give a slight addition to the comments on Lithium batteries. I electrified a boat with LiFePO4 batteries for one reason: high energy density. My 160 Ah 48v nominal bank weighs 200 lbs. With my Torqeedo 4R, I got my 15' aluminum utility up on a plane for 25+ miles. You do have to exercise some care in charging and monitoring but it is not very difficult or expensive. A 25 amp 48v 3-stage charger designed for Li costs about $500. A mini-bms battery management system is about $200. You can spend much more but these are completely adequate for marine applications. I had no difficulty in locating a source for the batteries. There is a large market created by the diy electric car people. <DIV>However, if you are converting a sail boat or other application where weight is not an issue or even may be an advantage then definitely go with the AGMs. They are much cheaper initially.</DIV> <DIV>If you need more help on LiFePO4s let me know.</DIV> <DIV>Ned</DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV> <DIV>On Jan 28, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Bill Heintz wrote:</DIV><BR class="ecxApple-interchange-newline"> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff;"><SPAN> </SPAN> <DIV id="ecxygrp-text"> <DIV><BR class="ecxwebkit-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV>On Jan 26, 2012, at 09:44, martin demers wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255);"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-mlmsg"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-msg"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-text"> <DIV dir="ltr"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-mlmsg"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-msg"> <DIV id="ecxygrp-text"> <DIV dir="ltr">I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>A very good question Martin. [and I'm not sure I am qualified to answer ;)]</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I chose AGM (lead acid) batteries for my boat for pragmatic reasons:</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I'm not a battery expert, and where I hope to travel, I don't suppose I will find a whole lot. AGM's were a smaller initial investment, it is easier to charge, and [I think] I understand the chemistry of it enough to charge them properly and keep them sufficiently maintained. If I travel and need a replacement, I can quickly get a replacement. Until my wallet starts to get too heavy I will probably stick with lead acid.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>On oversimplified comparison . . .</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><U><B>Lead Acid:</B></U> (includes flooded, SLA, VRLA, AGM, and GEL)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Advantages: <B>cheaper</B>, proven technology, easy to replace, chargers are readily available, a large bank of batteries can be charged all in series, no memory, high over-charge tolerance</DIV> <DIV>Limitations: <B>heavy</B> (30-50 wh/kg), cannot be left in a low-discharged condition, a deep cell battery has perhaps 300 cycles, high internal resistance, takes a while to charge (8-16 hrs), contains Lead</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span"><B><U>Li-Polymer:</U> </B>(</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">LiCoO</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>2</SUB></SPAN><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span">, </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">LiMn</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>2</SUB></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">O</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>4</SUB></SPAN><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span">, </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">LiFePO</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>4</SUB></SPAN><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span">, </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">LiNiMnCoO</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>2</SUB></SPAN><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span">, </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">LiNiCoAlO</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>2</SUB></SPAN><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span">, and </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">Li</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>4</SUB></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">Ti</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>5</SUB></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">O</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span"><SUB>12</SUB></SPAN><SPAN class="ecxApple-style-span"> to name a few see Notes below)</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Advantages: <B>lighter</B> (100-130 wh/kg), can be made <B>environmentally friendly</B> (no Pb, Cd, or Hg), 1,000+ cycles, no memory, lowest internal resistance of rechargeable batteries, faster charge (2-4 hrs)</DIV> <DIV>Limitations: <B>expensive</B>, charging properly is critical, chargers are expensive, (each cell needs to be monitored and charged individually when charging), low over-charge tolerance, hard to find a dealer that will sell you one suitable for a DIY-EV boat (24-48vdc boats are either too big or too small)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>In the Title Post, the battery chemistry refers to Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">LiNiMnCoO</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;FONT-SIZE: 12px;" class="ecxApple-style-span">2 </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ecxApple-style-span">(NMC)</SPAN></DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><B>Notes on Lithium Ion (Li-ion) and and Lithium Polymer (Li-po)</B>†:</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>• Scientists and the media give Li-ion batteries unique names but unless you are a scientist, this might cause confusion.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>• The polymer hype of the early 2000s is still going strong, however most users cannot distinguish between a regular Li-ion and one with polymer architecture.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>• All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with moisture. The correct term is "Lithium-ion Polymer" (Li-ion polymer or Li-polymer for short.)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>• Li-polymer can be build on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>• As far the consumer is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially the sam as the lithium ion battery.</DIV> <DIV><I><BR></I></DIV> <DIV><I><BR></I></DIV> <DIV><I>†- <U>Batteries in a Portable World</U> - Isidor Bunchmann - pp. 59-60. See also "Battery Types" on <A href="http://www.batteryuniversity.com/" target="_blank">www.BatteryUniversity.com</A>, an up-to-date reference for comparing different battery chemistries.</I></DIV> <DIV><I><BR></I></DIV> <DIV><I><BR></I></DIV> <DIV>Types of Li-ion batteries: Table 2-10†</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;COLOR: rgb(51,51,51);FONT-SIZE: 12px;" class="ecxApple-style-span"> <TABLE border="1" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="5"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Chemical name</STRONG></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Material</STRONG></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Abbreviation</STRONG></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Short form</STRONG></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG> Notes</STRONG></DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Lithium Cobalt Oxide</STRONG><SUP>1</SUP><BR>Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt)</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LiCoO<SUB>2<BR></SUB>(60% Co)</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LCO</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>Li-cobalt<BR> </DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera</DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Lithium<BR>Manganese Oxide</STRONG><SUP>1</SUP><BR>Also Lithium Manganate<BR>or lithium-ion-manganese</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LiMn<SUB>2</SUB>O<SUB>4</SUB></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LMO</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>Li-manganese, or spinel<BR> </DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);" rowSpan="3"> <DIV>Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and long life.</DIV> <DIV>Power tools,<BR>e-bikes, EV, medical, hobbyist.</DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Lithium<BR>Iron Phosphate</STRONG><SUP>1</SUP></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LiFePO<SUB>4</SUB></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LFP</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>Li-phosphate</DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide</STRONG><SUP>1</SUP><STRONG>,</STRONG>also lithium-manganese-cobalt-oxide</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LiNiMnCoO<SUB>2<BR></SUB>(10–20% Co)</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>NMC</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>NMC<BR> </DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide</STRONG><SUP>1</SUP></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LiNiCoAlO<SUB>2</SUB><BR>9% Co)</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>NCA</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>NCA</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);" rowSpan="2"> <DIV>Gaining importance<BR>in electric powertrain and grid storage</DIV></TD></TR> <TR> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(217,217,217);"> <DIV><STRONG>Lithium Titanate</STRONG><SUP>2</SUP></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>Li<SUB>4</SUB>Ti<SUB>5</SUB>O<SUB>12</SUB></DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>LTO</DIV></TD> <TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(238,238,238);"> <DIV>Li-titanate</DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <DIV><STRONG>Table 1: Reference names for Li-ion batteries. </STRONG>We will use the short form when appropriate.</DIV> <DIV><SUP>1 </SUP> Cathode material <SUP>2 </SUP> Anode material</DIV></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR class="ecxwebkit-block-placeholder"></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV> <P><BR></DIV> <DIV style="HEIGHT: 0px;COLOR: #fff;"></DIV> </DIV> </div> </div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; 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I electrified a boat with LiFePO4 batteries for one reason: high energy density. My 160 Ah 48v nominal bank weighs 200 lbs. With my Torqeedo 4R, I got my 15' aluminum utility up on a plane for 25+ miles. You do have to exercise some care in charging and monitoring but it is not very difficult or expensive. A 25 amp 48v 3-stage charger designed for Li costs about $500. A mini-bms battery management system is about $200. You can spend much more but these are completely adequate for marine applications. I had no difficulty in locating a source for the batteries. There is a large market created by the diy electric car people. <div>However, if you are converting a sail boat or other application where weight is not an issue or even may be an advantage then definitely go with the AGMs. They are much cheaper initially.</div><div>If you need more help on LiFePO4s let me know.</div><div>Ned</div><div><br><div><div>On Jan 28, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Bill Heintz wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="background-color: #fff;"> <span> </span> <div id="ygrp-text"><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>On Jan 26, 2012, at 09:44, martin demers wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="ygrp-msg"><div id="ygrp-text"><div dir="ltr"><div id="ecxygrp-mlmsg"><div id="ecxygrp-msg"><div id="ecxygrp-text"><div dir="ltr">I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>A very good question Martin. [and I'm not sure I am qualified to answer ;)]</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I chose AGM (lead acid) batteries for my boat for pragmatic reasons:</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not a battery expert, and where I hope to travel, I don't suppose I will find a whole lot. AGM's were a smaller initial investment, it is easier to charge, and [I think] I understand the chemistry of it enough to charge them properly and keep them sufficiently maintained. If I travel and need a replacement, I can quickly get a replacement. Until my wallet starts to get too heavy I will probably stick with lead acid.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On oversimplified comparison . . .</div><div><br></div><div><u><b>Lead Acid:</b></u> (includes flooded, SLA, VRLA, AGM, and GEL)</div><div><br></div><div>Advantages: <b>cheaper</b>, proven technology, easy to replace, chargers are readily available, a large bank of batteries can be charged all in series, no memory, high over-charge tolerance</div><div>Limitations: <b>heavy</b> (30-50 wh/kg), cannot be left in a low-discharged condition, a deep cell battery has perhaps 300 cycles, high internal resistance, takes a while to charge (8-16 hrs), contains Lead</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b><u>Li-Polymer:</u> </b>(</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiCoO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiMn</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">O</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>4</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiFePO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>4</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiNiMnCoO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiNiCoAlO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, and </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Li</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>4</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Ti</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>5</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">O</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>12</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span"> to name a few see Notes below)</span></div><div><br></div><div>Advantages: <b>lighter</b> (100-130 wh/kg), can be made <b>environmentally friendly</b> (no Pb, Cd, or Hg), 1,000+ cycles, no memory, lowest internal resistance of rechargeable batteries, faster charge (2-4 hrs)</div><div>Limitations: <b>expensive</b>, charging properly is critical, chargers are expensive, (each cell needs to be monitored and charged individually when charging), low over-charge tolerance, hard to find a dealer that will sell you one suitable for a DIY-EV boat (24-48vdc boats are either too big or too small)</div><div><br></div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>In the Title Post, the battery chemistry refers to Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiNiMnCoO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 12px;">2 </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">(NMC)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><b>Notes on Lithium Ion (Li-ion) and and Lithium Polymer (Li-po)</b>†:</div><div><br></div><div>• Scientists and the media give Li-ion batteries unique names but unless you are a scientist, this might cause confusion.</div><div><br></div><div>• The polymer hype of the early 2000s is still going strong, however most users cannot distinguish between a regular Li-ion and one with polymer architecture.</div><div><br></div><div>• All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with moisture. The correct term is "Lithium-ion Polymer" (Li-ion polymer or Li-polymer for short.)</div><div><br></div><div>• Li-polymer can be build on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese.</div><div><br></div><div>• As far the consumer is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially the sam as the lithium ion battery.</div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>†- <u>Batteries in a Portable World</u> - Isidor Bunchmann - pp. 59-60. See also "Battery Types" on <a href="http://www.BatteryUniversity.com">www.BatteryUniversity.com</a>, an up-to-date reference for comparing different battery chemistries.</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div>Types of Li-ion batteries: Table 2-10†</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 12px;"><table border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Chemical name</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Material</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Abbreviation</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Short form</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong> Notes</strong></div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Cobalt Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup><br>Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiCoO<sub>2<br></sub>(60% Co)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LCO</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-cobalt<br> </div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium<br>Manganese Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup><br>Also Lithium Manganate<br>or lithium-ion-manganese</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiMn<sub>2</sub>O<sub>4</sub></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LMO</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-manganese, or spinel<br> </div></td><td rowspan="3" style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and long life.</div><div>Power tools,<br>e-bikes, EV, medical, hobbyist.</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium<br>Iron Phosphate</strong><sup>1</sup></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiFePO<sub>4</sub></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LFP</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-phosphate</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup><strong>,</strong>also lithium-manganese-cobalt-oxide</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiNiMnCoO<sub>2<br></sub>(10–20% Co)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NMC</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NMC<br> </div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiNiCoAlO<sub>2</sub><br>9% Co)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NCA</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NCA</div></td><td rowspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Gaining importance<br>in electric powertrain and grid storage</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Titanate</strong><sup>2</sup></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li<sub>4</sub>Ti<sub>5</sub>O<sub>12</sub></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LTO</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-titanate</div></td></tr></tbody></table><div><strong>Table 1: Reference names for Li-ion batteries. </strong>We will use the short form when appropriate.</div><div><sup>1 </sup> Cathode material <sup>2 </sup> Anode material</div></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> </div> </div> <!-- end group email --> </blockquote></div><br></div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; 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[and I'm not sure I am qualified to answer ;)]</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I chose AGM (lead acid) batteries for my boat for pragmatic reasons:</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not a battery expert, and where I hope to travel, I don't suppose I will find a whole lot. AGM's were a smaller initial investment, it is easier to charge, and [I think] I understand the chemistry of it enough to charge them properly and keep them sufficiently maintained. If I travel and need a replacement, I can quickly get a replacement. Until my wallet starts to get too heavy I will probably stick with lead acid.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On oversimplified comparison . . .</div><div><br></div><div><u><b>Lead Acid:</b></u> (includes flooded, SLA, VRLA, AGM, and GEL)</div><div><br></div><div>Advantages: <b>cheaper</b>, proven technology, easy to replace, chargers are readily available, a large bank of batteries can be charged all in series, no memory, high over-charge tolerance</div><div>Limitations: <b>heavy</b> (30-50 wh/kg), cannot be left in a low-discharged condition, a deep cell battery has perhaps 300 cycles, high internal resistance, takes a while to charge (8-16 hrs), contains Lead</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><b><u>Li-Polymer:</u> </b>(</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiCoO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiMn</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">O</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>4</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiFePO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>4</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiNiMnCoO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiNiCoAlO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>2</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span">, and </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Li</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>4</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Ti</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>5</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">O</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><sub>12</sub></span><span class="Apple-style-span"> to name a few see Notes below)</span></div><div><br></div><div>Advantages: <b>lighter</b> (100-130 wh/kg), can be made <b>environmentally friendly</b> (no Pb, Cd, or Hg), 1,000+ cycles, no memory, lowest internal resistance of rechargeable batteries, faster charge (2-4 hrs)</div><div>Limitations: <b>expensive</b>, charging properly is critical, chargers are expensive, (each cell needs to be monitored and charged individually when charging), low over-charge tolerance, hard to find a dealer that will sell you one suitable for a DIY-EV boat (24-48vdc boats are either too big or too small)</div><div><br></div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>In the Title Post, the battery chemistry refers to Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LiNiMnCoO</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 12px;">2 </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">(NMC)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><b>Notes on Lithium Ion (Li-ion) and and Lithium Polymer (Li-po)</b>†:</div><div><br></div><div>• Scientists and the media give Li-ion batteries unique names but unless you are a scientist, this might cause confusion.</div><div><br></div><div>• The polymer hype of the early 2000s is still going strong, however most users cannot distinguish between a regular Li-ion and one with polymer architecture.</div><div><br></div><div>• All Li-ion polymer cells today incorporate a micro porous separator with moisture. The correct term is "Lithium-ion Polymer" (Li-ion polymer or Li-polymer for short.)</div><div><br></div><div>• Li-polymer can be build on many systems, such as Li-cobalt, NMC, Li-phosphate and Li-manganese.</div><div><br></div><div>• As far the consumer is concerned, the lithium polymer is essentially the sam as the lithium ion battery.</div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>†- <u>Batteries in a Portable World</u> - Isidor Bunchmann - pp. 59-60. See also "Battery Types" on www.BatteryUniversity.com, an up-to-date reference for comparing different battery chemistries.</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div>Types of Li-ion batteries: Table 2-10†</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 12px;"><table border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Chemical name</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Material</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Abbreviation</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Short form</strong></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong> Notes</strong></div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Cobalt Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup><br>Also Lithium Cobalate or lithium-ion-cobalt)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiCoO<sub>2<br></sub>(60% Co)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LCO</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-cobalt<br> </div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>High capacity; for cell phone laptop, camera</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium<br>Manganese Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup><br>Also Lithium Manganate<br>or lithium-ion-manganese</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiMn<sub>2</sub>O<sub>4</sub></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LMO</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-manganese, or spinel<br> </div></td><td rowspan="3" style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Most safe; lower capacity than Li-cobalt but high specific power and long life.</div><div>Power tools,<br>e-bikes, EV, medical, hobbyist.</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium<br>Iron Phosphate</strong><sup>1</sup></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiFePO<sub>4</sub></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LFP</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-phosphate</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup><strong>,</strong>also lithium-manganese-cobalt-oxide</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiNiMnCoO<sub>2<br></sub>(10–20% Co)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NMC</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NMC<br> </div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide</strong><sup>1</sup></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LiNiCoAlO<sub>2</sub><br>9% Co)</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NCA</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>NCA</div></td><td rowspan="2" style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Gaining importance<br>in electric powertrain and grid storage</div></td></tr><tr><td style="background-color: rgb(217, 217, 217);"><div><strong>Lithium Titanate</strong><sup>2</sup></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li<sub>4</sub>Ti<sub>5</sub>O<sub>12</sub></div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>LTO</div></td><td style="background-color: rgb(238, 238, 238);"><div>Li-titanate</div></td></tr></tbody></table><div><strong>Table 1: Reference names for Li-ion batteries. </strong>We will use the short form when appropriate.</div><div><sup>1 </sup> Cathode material <sup>2 </sup> Anode material</div></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; 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All of the Lithium batteries that we have discussed recently are Lithium-Ion.<br> <br> "A lithium-ion battery (sometimes Li-ion battery or LIB) is a family of rechargeable battery types in which lithium ions move from the negative electrode to the positive electrode during discharge, and back when charging. Chemistry, performance, cost, and safety characteristics vary across LIB types. Unlike lithium primary batteries (which are disposable), lithium-ion electrochemical cells use an intercalated lithium compound as the electrode material instead of metallic lithium."<br> <br> So, we can assume that any time someone mentions Lithium batteries in this group, they are talking about Li-ion batteries (unless they use disposable batteries!?!) As discussed Lithium Polymer (which are used in mobile devices and some cars like the Tesla) are more succeptable to physical damage which can result in the battery catching on fire. Extremely high discharge rates (10C and above) may also result in meltdowns. Most of the Li-Po batteries are Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO) batteries and are available in pouch or cylindrical formats. <br> <br> But in boating, only drag boats should see those kinds of discharge rates and those boats are the only ones that should need the more expensive Li-Po batteries. For full discharges that take longer than seconds or minutes, the hard shell Lithium batteries are more approriate. A pack could be built from cylindrical cells, but requires more connections which are not as desireable in a marine environment. Prismatic formats have more capacity per cell and lend themselves well to traction packs in boats and EVs. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is most common type of prismatic cell today and are very stable (safe). Torqeedo uses Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMnO) cells in their products, they are also quite stable. I believe that someone might be making Lithium Nickel Oxide (LiNiO) cells, but they are not common.<br> <br> So, when you read Li-ion in an article or in promotional material, it's not identifying anything more than a rechargable Lithium battery. More information is required to determine the specific attributes about that battery, such as format, max discharge rate, safety, etc.<br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> Marina del Rey, CA<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Lithium ion batteries like used in most mobile devices and some cars are the Lithium batteries most likely to catch on fire. The Tesla has a large cooling system for its batteries, to prevent this. LiFe-Po do not have the runaway heat problem that causes this in Li ion batteries. I don't know about other Lithium batteries.<br> > <br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYXFzc252BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY4OTIwNQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20757">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZnJycGUzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY4OTIwNQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2NHRucDZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY4OTIwNQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">16</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmaWdiaGxsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2ODkyMDU-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">16</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYnY5bTFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY4OTIwNQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbms2ajM2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3Njg5MjA1" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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The Tesla has a large cooling system for its batteries, to prevent this. LiFe-Po do not have the runaway heat problem that causes this in Li ion batteries. I don't know about other Lithium batteries.<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "rschwirz" <rschwirz@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > <br> > Interesting info<br> > I have been using Lithium Polymer Batteries for years with my the remote control model airplanes and I like them.<br> > They are very good.<br> > Model airplane enthusiast also know there comes a danger with Li-Poly batteries.<br> > I several cases the airplanes burst into flames while the batteries are been charged. Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.<br> > The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air<br> > It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.<br> > I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.">http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.</a><br> > There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.<br> > <br> > Robert<br> > <br> > --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, Bill Heintz <bheintz@> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group<br> > > <br> > > <br> > > <br> > > <br> > > Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV - <br> > > Netherlands<br> > > Monday, January 23, 2012<br> > > <br> > > <br> > > ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with <br> > > Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed <br> > > and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems <br> > > in the most harsh environment.<br> > > Energy storage<br> > > With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost <br> > > effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution <br> > > to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which <br> > > normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized <br> > > power management.<br> > > This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the <br> > > special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical <br> > > composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which <br> > > guarantees long lifetime and little wear.<br> > > Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with <br> > > extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).<br> > > The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible <br> > > to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over <br> > > 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.<br> > > With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power <br> > > battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been <br> > > developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.<br> > > The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead <br> > > of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the <br> > > already high reliability of the battery systems.<br> > > Battery Management System<br> > > To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies <br> > > has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly <br> > > active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market <br> > > today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It <br> > > can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even <br> > > between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This <br> > > is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to <br> > > ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy <br> > > storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the <br> > > battery module itself.<br> > > The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers <br> > > like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for <br> > > durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced <br> > > amount of parts.<br> > > Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is <br> > > needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active <br> > > balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an <br> > > imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from <br> > > the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are <br> > > always 100% balanced.<br> > > The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series, <br> > > the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series <br> > > in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and <br> > > installation of the complete system including battery, total battery <br> > > management and safety features.<br> > > Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and <br> > > is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and <br> > > connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.<br> > > Further Development<br> > > ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a <br> > > very important step forward. They have found positive improvements <br> > > regarding the weight of the batteries.<br> > > ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries <br> > > with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is <br> > > lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.<br> > > Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:<br> > > • Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections<br> > > • Certified for high DC voltage systems<br> > > • Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%<br> > > • Configurable for Mega-Watt applications<br> > > • Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size<br> > > • Designed for large energy storage systems<br> > > • Maintenance free<br> > > • Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)<br> > > • 10 years limited warranty<br> > ><br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:sirdarnell@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbmlsN2VtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY2OTY3OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20756">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbTExNWZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY2OTY3OQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZXBuZ25pBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY2OTY3OQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">15</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZDNpNHNrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2Njk2Nzk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcDBxc2Y5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY2OTY3OQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbWM1dWhzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjY5Njc5" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I need to change either to a newer diesel or be brave and go electric. <br> <br> The boat lives in Chichester Marina (UK). Re-charging would be easy. I rarely go out for more than 6 hours. Most of this is spent in the harbour where the speed limit is 8 knots (can't reach that anyway). Tidal streams and wind can be quite strong ( tide 5-6 knots at times).<br> <br> The boat has quite a lot of ballast in it so changing this for a good sized array of batteries would not be a problem. There is plenty of room. Prop is three bladed, turning at 1500 rpm. Not sure of size or pitch. I could even have room to accomodate some sort of generator set as a 'get you home' if needed.<br> <br> I have two questions to start with:<br> <br> Is electric power viable for such an application bearing in mind the need to push against the tide?<br> <br> Is there anyone around my area who has done such a conversion?<br> <br> Many thanks in advance<br> <br> Michael<br> (Bobolink)<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:barrowbyuk@yahoo.co.uk?subject=Re%3A%20Looking%20at%20the%20options" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Looking%20at%20the%20options"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxanNvczg4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=20766">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXJzbTF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5Nw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20766;_ylc=X3oDMTM2bDk1bWhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5NwR0cGNJZAMyMDc2Ng--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">1</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbG5tNnE4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc4NjAwOTc-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNnBqYzdrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5Nw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkczFxcHNkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3ODYwMDk3" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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demand being 5-6x beyond anything rational-reasonable, heck yeah induvidual cells would fail for that kind of abuse!</DIV> <DIV>sure was fun outrunning gas powered model boats in short races.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 1/27/12, andrew@fastelectrics.com <I><andrew@fastelectrics.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;"><BR>From: andrew@fastelectrics.com <andrew@fastelectrics.com><BR>Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<BR>To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com<BR>Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 3:04 AM<BR><BR> <DIV id="yiv225169299"> <DIV><SPAN> </SPAN> <DIV id="yiv225169299ygrp-text"> <DIV>ROBERT<BR><BR>* lithium cobalt formulations have never burst into flame because of contact with air<BR><BR>* the risks are:<BR>- impact damage causing internal shorts - can cause fire<BR>- over charging can cause fire<BR>- over discharge - too high a rate can cause fire - but taking to a ultra low charge state wrecks the cells<BR>- using cells which are too cold can result in massive overheating and fire <BR>- USERS ignoring obvious signs of damage such as impact marks, puffing and overheating<BR>- makers over specifying cells and users refusing to accept that this was the case<BR><BR>These are risks in ultra high discharge situations eg near maximum cell discharge rates <BR><BR>People who have fires in cell charging have either failed to use a balancing charger or ignored the signs of damage to cells<BR><BR>As presented the battery system in question should be very safe<BR>* they have impact resistant cases<BR>* good connections system <BR>* full time battery management <BR><BR>The scaremongering over the dangers of lipo has been legendary and associated with misuse of cells, inappropriate cells and refusal of users to accept repsonsibility for their own actions. <BR><BR>Having used Lithium cobalt for the last 10 years in ultra high out put systems, my experience suggest used appropriately used Lithium cobalt is increasing stable safe and very very powerful.<BR><BR>Andrew Gilchrist <BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: rschwirz [mailto:<A href="http://us.mc1618.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rschwirz%40sbcglobal.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:rschwirz%40sbcglobal.net">rschwirz@sbcglobal.net</A>]<BR>To: <A href="http://us.mc1618.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=electricboats%40yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</A><BR>Sent: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:09:03 -0000<BR>Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<BR><BR>Interesting info<BR>I have been using Lithium Polymer Batteries for years with my the remote control model airplanes and I like them.<BR>They are very good.<BR>Model airplane enthusiast also know there comes a danger with Li-Poly batteries.<BR>I several cases the airplanes burst into flames while the batteries are been charged. Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.<BR>The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air<BR>It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.<BR>I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires <A href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.</A><BR>There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.<BR><BR>Robert<BR><BR>--- In <A href="http://us.mc1618.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=electricboats%40yahoogroups.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</A>, Bill Heintz <bheintz@...> wrote:<BR>><BR>> Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV - <BR>> Netherlands<BR>> Monday, January 23, 2012<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with <BR>> Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed <BR>> and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems <BR>> in the most harsh environment.<BR>> Energy storage<BR>> With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost <BR>> effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution <BR>> to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which <BR>> normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized <BR>> power management.<BR>> This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the <BR>> special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical <BR>> composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which <BR>> guarantees long lifetime and little wear.<BR>> Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with <BR>> extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).<BR>> The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible <BR>> to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over <BR>> 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.<BR>> With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power <BR>> battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been <BR>> developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.<BR>> The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead <BR>> of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the <BR>> already high reliability of the battery systems.<BR>> Battery Management System<BR>> To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies <BR>> has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly <BR>> active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market <BR>> today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It <BR>> can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even <BR>> between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This <BR>> is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to <BR>> ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy <BR>> storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the <BR>> battery module itself.<BR>> The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers <BR>> like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for <BR>> durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced <BR>> amount of parts.<BR>> Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is <BR>> needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active <BR>> balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an <BR>> imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from <BR>> the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are <BR>> always 100% balanced.<BR>> The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series, <BR>> the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series <BR>> in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and <BR>> installation of the complete system including battery, total battery <BR>> management and safety features.<BR>> Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and <BR>> is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and <BR>> connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.<BR>> Further Development<BR>> ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a <BR>> very important step forward. They have found positive improvements <BR>> regarding the weight of the batteries.<BR>> ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries <BR>> with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is <BR>> lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.<BR>> Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:<BR>> . Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections<BR>> . Certified for high DC voltage systems<BR>> . Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%<BR>> . Configurable for Mega-Watt applications<BR>> . Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size<BR>> . Designed for large energy storage systems<BR>> . Maintenance free<BR>> . Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)<BR>> . 10 years limited warranty<BR>><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:rekkamurd@yahoo.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdnU1b3VpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1NzQ1OA--?act=reply&messageNum=20755">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbTF1OTFxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1NzQ1OA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZnVsbjZkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1NzQ1OAR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">14</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJma2QzOWIzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2NTc0NTg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNHRidXRqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1NzQ1OA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM2tmODNpBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjU3NDU4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.<br> The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air<br> It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.<br> I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.">http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.</a><br> There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.<br> <br> Robert<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, Bill Heintz <bheintz@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV - <br> > Netherlands<br> > Monday, January 23, 2012<br> > <br> > <br> > ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with <br> > Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed <br> > and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems <br> > in the most harsh environment.<br> > Energy storage<br> > With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost <br> > effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution <br> > to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which <br> > normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized <br> > power management.<br> > This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the <br> > special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical <br> > composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which <br> > guarantees long lifetime and little wear.<br> > Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with <br> > extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).<br> > The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible <br> > to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over <br> > 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.<br> > With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power <br> > battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been <br> > developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.<br> > The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead <br> > of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the <br> > already high reliability of the battery systems.<br> > Battery Management System<br> > To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies <br> > has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly <br> > active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market <br> > today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It <br> > can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even <br> > between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This <br> > is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to <br> > ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy <br> > storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the <br> > battery module itself.<br> > The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers <br> > like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for <br> > durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced <br> > amount of parts.<br> > Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is <br> > needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active <br> > balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an <br> > imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from <br> > the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are <br> > always 100% balanced.<br> > The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series, <br> > the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series <br> > in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and <br> > installation of the complete system including battery, total battery <br> > management and safety features.<br> > Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and <br> > is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and <br> > connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.<br> > Further Development<br> > ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a <br> > very important step forward. They have found positive improvements <br> > regarding the weight of the batteries.<br> > ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries <br> > with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is <br> > lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.<br> > Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:<br> > . Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections<br> > . Certified for high DC voltage systems<br> > . Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%<br> > . Configurable for Mega-Watt applications<br> > . Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size<br> > . Designed for large energy storage systems<br> > . Maintenance free<br> > . Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)<br> > . 10 years limited warranty<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:andrew@fastelectrics.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdWVsazFiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1MTQ2Mw--?act=reply&messageNum=20754">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcWVpaDE0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1MTQ2Mw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZXFpZXRoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1MTQ2MwR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">13</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZHRvdjZjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2NTE0NjM-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTJzaDUyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzY1MTQ2Mw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYjNsa3FhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjUxNDYz" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a> <div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:electricboats-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:electricboats-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:electricboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id="ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5214382/grpspId=1705884090/msgId=20754/stime=1327651463/nc1=3848621/nc2=4025291/nc3=4430620" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> <div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-4747304387337055152?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-67927402642892130172012-01-26T17:09:00.001-08:002012-01-26T17:09:13.509-08:00[Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><br> Interesting info<br> I have been using Lithium Polymer Batteries for years with my the remote control model airplanes and I like them.<br> They are very good.<br> Model airplane enthusiast also know there comes a danger with Li-Poly batteries.<br> I several cases the airplanes burst into flames while the batteries are been charged. Not only out there in the field but also in peoples basements.<br> The chemicals of the Li-Poly batteries used in airplanes are only in a light weight pouch. If that pouch gets punctured and the Lithium gets exposed to air<br> It will ignite into high temp flames just by coming in contact with air. That's why all the suppliers of those batteries recommend charging them outside the house in a flame retardant container. Again, those pouches are light weight and can be damaged easily in a small crash.<br> I know youtube has some videos about Li-Poly fires <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.">http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=li-poly+battery+fire&oq=Li-Poly&aq=0&aqi=g6g-C1g-sC1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=4092l7410l0l13422l7l7l0l0l0l0l377l1822l0.1.1.4l6l0.</a><br> There is no danger with LiFEPO4 batteries as far as I know.<br> <br> Robert<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, Bill Heintz <bheintz@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV - <br> > Netherlands<br> > Monday, January 23, 2012<br> > <br> > <br> > ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with <br> > Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed <br> > and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems <br> > in the most harsh environment.<br> > Energy storage<br> > With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost <br> > effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution <br> > to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which <br> > normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized <br> > power management.<br> > This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the <br> > special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical <br> > composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which <br> > guarantees long lifetime and little wear.<br> > Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with <br> > extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).<br> > The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible <br> > to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over <br> > 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.<br> > With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power <br> > battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been <br> > developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.<br> > The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead <br> > of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the <br> > already high reliability of the battery systems.<br> > Battery Management System<br> > To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies <br> > has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly <br> > active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market <br> > today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It <br> > can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even <br> > between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This <br> > is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to <br> > ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy <br> > storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the <br> > battery module itself.<br> > The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers <br> > like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for <br> > durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced <br> > amount of parts.<br> > Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is <br> > needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active <br> > balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an <br> > imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from <br> > the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are <br> > always 100% balanced.<br> > The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series, <br> > the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series <br> > in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and <br> > installation of the complete system including battery, total battery <br> > management and safety features.<br> > Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and <br> > is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and <br> > connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.<br> > Further Development<br> > ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a <br> > very important step forward. They have found positive improvements <br> > regarding the weight of the batteries.<br> > ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries <br> > with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is <br> > lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.<br> > Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:<br> > • Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections<br> > • Certified for high DC voltage systems<br> > • Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%<br> > • Configurable for Mega-Watt applications<br> > • Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size<br> > • Designed for large energy storage systems<br> > • Maintenance free<br> > • Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)<br> > • 10 years limited warranty<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:rschwirz@sbcglobal.net?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbTUyMnVxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYyNjU0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20753">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOGQ0bmFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYyNjU0OQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2b2xyMGkzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYyNjU0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">12</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmc2Y0aDczBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2MjY1NDk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWZ1cmRnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYyNjU0OQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZGc0ZjhnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjI2NTQ5" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I've played around with the run time formula shown on the smartgauge website you linked in your post, T = C/(I/(C/R))n X (R/C). If I wanted to factor in a 60% D.O.D would I just multiply the result T by .6? <br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Tom" <boat_works@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > While we're discussing battery cost, bear in mind that the most expensive up-front solution (LiFepO4) just might turn out to be the least expensive over the life of the battery bank, even including the <br> > additional management/monitoring electronics that are typically installed.<br> > <br> > Two caveats:<br> > 1. You have to own the boat long enough to have the pack die a natural death to get you money out of the investment (nobody knows how long this is yet, they're too new), or if you sell you have to convince the buyer that the cells still have value.<br> > <br> > 2. You have to avoid killing the pack prematurely (nobody really knows the best way to treat these cell yet). <br> > <br> > -Tom (happily running a lithium bank for over 300 cycles)<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Eric" <ewdysar@> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > Hi Martin,<br> > > <br> > > I've posted this info to this group before, but here it is again. Please note, Li-Po and LiFePO4 are two types of Lithium batteries. Li-Po batteries are typically more expensive but they have a higher tolerance for extremely high discharge rates. LiFePO4 batteries are available in large formats, are cheaper and are well suited for traction applications in boats. EVs see much higher discharge rates, so the additional expense of Li-Po cells are sometimes justified. Other than that, Li-Po and LiFePO4 seem to be fairly close on energy density and lifespan. <br> > > <br> > > ===================================<br> > > Choosing a battery type for your electric boat conversion can be difficult. Here's some general information that is generally accepted on this board. The product specs from battery vendors don't tell the whole story.<br> > > <br> > > FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries are typically run to about a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). Some people go deeper, but many consider this depth to be a good compromise between energy delivered and maintaining a long life, measured in charge cycles.<br> > > <br> > > AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries can be discharged to the 70-80% range. I generally consider a 70% discharge for AGM systems. Both FLA and AGM weigh about the same for the same rated capacity.<br> > > <br> > > Lithium Batteries (LiFePO4) can be discharged even deeper, for range estimates I use 80% DoD to keep a small safety reserve. LiFePO4 batteries are about 50% the weight of lead/acid batteries for the same rated capacity.<br> > > <br> > > Then there is a trait called the Peukert Effect, this describes a battery's decreased ability to deliver energy at higher amp loads. I won't go into the math here, but that loss is predictable through Peukert's equations. Brace yourselves; it's going to get technical for a while.<br> > > <br> > > In fact, the concept was known for many years before Peukert was able to quantify the relationship between the load and capacity lost. Here's a link to a page that explains the Peukert Effect is greater detail:<br> > > <br> > > <a href="http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html">http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html</a> <br> > > <br> > > The content can be a little difficult to work through, but it is correct. There are additional pages that provide validation of their version of the formula, where the results can be verified against the published specs of almost any battery. If you don't want to work through all of the math in the middle of the page, the second to the last paragraph refers to how different battery types have different Peukert's Exponenets and what that can mean.<br> > > <br> > > If you can accept that different batteries can have different Peukert Exponents depending on how they are made, then the following link shows graphically how a different Peukert Exponent affects the available capacity of different batteries. Look about halfway down the page, in the section labeled "The Peukert Effect":<br> > > <br> > > <a href="http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/">http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/</a> <br> > > <br> > > Finally, while few manufacturers publish their specific Peukert Exponents, some do and some other numbers have been published for common batteries. Peukert Exponents are typically calculated through empirically measured capacity at different loads. Here are a few examples (values closer to 1.0 are better):<br> > > <br> > > Trojan T-105 = 1.25<br> > > US Battery 2200 = 1.20<br> > > Optima 750S = 1.109<br> > > Thundersky LiFePO4 = 1.03<br> > > <br> > > So what does this mean in the real world? Let's pick battery bank size of 10kWh and a constant load of 2500W (52A @ 48V). That will drive most of our boats to somewhere between 4 and 5kts, your results will vary.<br> > > <br> > > The simple math would indicate that there are 4 hours of charge in the bank to 100% DoD, So FLA batteries like T-105s would have 60% of 4 hours or 2.4 hours of usable range. Likewise AGM would be 2.8 hours and Lithium would have 3.2 hours of usable range. But this is where Peukert's effect raises its ugly head.<br> > > <br> > > FLA with PE of 1.25 – 10kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 1.60 hours (that's a loss of 33% to Peukert's Effect)<br> > > AGM with PE of 1.1 – 10kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.38 hours (15% lost to Peukert's Effect)<br> > > LiFePO4 with PE 0f 1.03 – 10kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 3.05 hours (less than 5% loss)<br> > > <br> > > You can see that AGM have almost 50% more usable range than T-105s for this size battery bank at this load. Reducing the load (slowing down) reduces the effect and speeding up makes it worse. Even though quality AGM are about twice the cost of T-105s, the extra usable range makes them a very good alternative. Add in the much lower self discharge rate so that constant maintenance charging is not required and they look even better. People also recognize that AGMs seem to last longer in the real world and now the AGMs are cheaper in the long run.<br> > > <br> > > If weight is a concern, then LiFePO4 is the way to go. The high price per Ah can be intimidating, but you can reduce the Ah and achieve the same range, saving money and even more weight. Let's do the math for a battery pack that has a 2.5 hour range at 2500W.<br> > > <br> > > FLA – 14.25kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 633 lbs, cost about $1500<br> > > AGM – 10.5kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 520 lbs, cost about $2500<br> > > LiFePO4 – 8.25kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 200 lbs, cost about $3500<br> > > <br> > > So now the lithiums are only 2.3 times the cost of T-105s but they are less than 1/3 the weight for the same range at this load.<br> > > So for most boaters, I recommend AGMs as a good balance of price to range.<br> > > ======================================== <br> > > <br> > > So the bottom line is; it's your money, your boat and you know how you use it. You get to figure out your priorities and pick the storage system that best fits your particular needs and constraints.<br> > > <br> > > Fair winds,<br> > > Eric<br> > > 1964 Bermuda 30 ketch, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8 kWh Lithium batteries<br> > > Marina del Rey, CA<br> > > <br> > > --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, martin demers <mdemers2005@> wrote:<br> > > ><br> > > > Hi all,<br> > > > <br> > > > I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats<br> > > > This concept is new to me for boat application<br> > > > Does it give much much more running time?<br> > > > <br> > > > Thanks,Martin<br> > > ><br> > ><br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:clh5_98@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Choosing%20a%20battery%20type" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Choosing%20a%20battery%20type"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMW9ldHZzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5NA--?act=reply&messageNum=20765">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZGJ2dmxoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5NA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZG1tYjdpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5NAR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">21</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNmRrNnJtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc4NjAwOTQ-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWQxc2hqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA5NA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkN3NnZmQ5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3ODYwMDk0" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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You have to own the boat long enough to have the pack die a natural death to get you money out of the investment (nobody knows how long this is yet, they're too new), or if you sell you have to convince the buyer that the cells still have value.<br> <br> 2. You have to avoid killing the pack prematurely (nobody really knows the best way to treat these cell yet). <br> <br> -Tom (happily running a lithium bank for over 300 cycles)<br> <br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi Martin,<br> > <br> > I've posted this info to this group before, but here it is again. Please note, Li-Po and LiFePO4 are two types of Lithium batteries. Li-Po batteries are typically more expensive but they have a higher tolerance for extremely high discharge rates. LiFePO4 batteries are available in large formats, are cheaper and are well suited for traction applications in boats. EVs see much higher discharge rates, so the additional expense of Li-Po cells are sometimes justified. Other than that, Li-Po and LiFePO4 seem to be fairly close on energy density and lifespan. <br> > <br> > ===================================<br> > Choosing a battery type for your electric boat conversion can be difficult. Here's some general information that is generally accepted on this board. The product specs from battery vendors don't tell the whole story.<br> > <br> > FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries are typically run to about a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). Some people go deeper, but many consider this depth to be a good compromise between energy delivered and maintaining a long life, measured in charge cycles.<br> > <br> > AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries can be discharged to the 70-80% range. I generally consider a 70% discharge for AGM systems. Both FLA and AGM weigh about the same for the same rated capacity.<br> > <br> > Lithium Batteries (LiFePO4) can be discharged even deeper, for range estimates I use 80% DoD to keep a small safety reserve. LiFePO4 batteries are about 50% the weight of lead/acid batteries for the same rated capacity.<br> > <br> > Then there is a trait called the Peukert Effect, this describes a battery's decreased ability to deliver energy at higher amp loads. I won't go into the math here, but that loss is predictable through Peukert's equations. Brace yourselves; it's going to get technical for a while.<br> > <br> > In fact, the concept was known for many years before Peukert was able to quantify the relationship between the load and capacity lost. Here's a link to a page that explains the Peukert Effect is greater detail:<br> > <br> > <a href="http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html">http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html</a> <br> > <br> > The content can be a little difficult to work through, but it is correct. There are additional pages that provide validation of their version of the formula, where the results can be verified against the published specs of almost any battery. If you don't want to work through all of the math in the middle of the page, the second to the last paragraph refers to how different battery types have different Peukert's Exponenets and what that can mean.<br> > <br> > If you can accept that different batteries can have different Peukert Exponents depending on how they are made, then the following link shows graphically how a different Peukert Exponent affects the available capacity of different batteries. Look about halfway down the page, in the section labeled "The Peukert Effect":<br> > <br> > <a href="http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/">http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/</a> <br> > <br> > Finally, while few manufacturers publish their specific Peukert Exponents, some do and some other numbers have been published for common batteries. Peukert Exponents are typically calculated through empirically measured capacity at different loads. Here are a few examples (values closer to 1.0 are better):<br> > <br> > Trojan T-105 = 1.25<br> > US Battery 2200 = 1.20<br> > Optima 750S = 1.109<br> > Thundersky LiFePO4 = 1.03<br> > <br> > So what does this mean in the real world? Let's pick battery bank size of 10kWh and a constant load of 2500W (52A @ 48V). That will drive most of our boats to somewhere between 4 and 5kts, your results will vary.<br> > <br> > The simple math would indicate that there are 4 hours of charge in the bank to 100% DoD, So FLA batteries like T-105s would have 60% of 4 hours or 2.4 hours of usable range. Likewise AGM would be 2.8 hours and Lithium would have 3.2 hours of usable range. But this is where Peukert's effect raises its ugly head.<br> > <br> > FLA with PE of 1.25 – 10kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 1.60 hours (that's a loss of 33% to Peukert's Effect)<br> > AGM with PE of 1.1 – 10kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.38 hours (15% lost to Peukert's Effect)<br> > LiFePO4 with PE 0f 1.03 – 10kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 3.05 hours (less than 5% loss)<br> > <br> > You can see that AGM have almost 50% more usable range than T-105s for this size battery bank at this load. Reducing the load (slowing down) reduces the effect and speeding up makes it worse. Even though quality AGM are about twice the cost of T-105s, the extra usable range makes them a very good alternative. Add in the much lower self discharge rate so that constant maintenance charging is not required and they look even better. People also recognize that AGMs seem to last longer in the real world and now the AGMs are cheaper in the long run.<br> > <br> > If weight is a concern, then LiFePO4 is the way to go. The high price per Ah can be intimidating, but you can reduce the Ah and achieve the same range, saving money and even more weight. Let's do the math for a battery pack that has a 2.5 hour range at 2500W.<br> > <br> > FLA – 14.25kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 633 lbs, cost about $1500<br> > AGM – 10.5kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 520 lbs, cost about $2500<br> > LiFePO4 – 8.25kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 200 lbs, cost about $3500<br> > <br> > So now the lithiums are only 2.3 times the cost of T-105s but they are less than 1/3 the weight for the same range at this load.<br> > So for most boaters, I recommend AGMs as a good balance of price to range.<br> > ======================================== <br> > <br> > So the bottom line is; it's your money, your boat and you know how you use it. You get to figure out your priorities and pick the storage system that best fits your particular needs and constraints.<br> > <br> > Fair winds,<br> > Eric<br> > 1964 Bermuda 30 ketch, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8 kWh Lithium batteries<br> > Marina del Rey, CA<br> > <br> > --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, martin demers <mdemers2005@> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > Hi all,<br> > > <br> > > I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats<br> > > This concept is new to me for boat application<br> > > Does it give much much more running time?<br> > > <br> > > Thanks,Martin<br> > ><br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:boat_works@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Choosing%20a%20battery%20type" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Choosing%20a%20battery%20type"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZWQxdWU3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDIwOA--?act=reply&messageNum=20752">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHM1OTRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDIwOA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2c29mdWsxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDIwOAR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">11</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZDh2Z2I4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2MTQyMDg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbmdzdG11BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDIwOA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkODJoZWR0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjE0MjA4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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Their packs look like the typical large format prismatic LiFePO4 cells in a box with or without BMS. It should be interesting to evaluate what the total cost will be (including import fees and shipping) compared to putting something together yourself.<br> <br> As far as wiring, if you look at my batteries (in this photo)<br> <br> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1967401930/pic/235874096/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/photos/album/1967401930/pic/235874096/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc</a><br> <br> you can see that I have kept each 4 cells strapped together, creating a 12V battery. Within each 12V unit, the 3V cells are linked in series with flat braided connectors (they have red shrink tubing in the photo). You can also see the passive BMS module on each cell (the red and gold "strap" between the terminals). These modules shunt off up to 0.6A during charging when the cell voltage exceeds 3.65V. The feature that I'm not using right now is a single daisy chained wire connecting the BMS modules on the entire pack that would shut off the charger if any single cell hit 4.2V (the overcharging limit for my cells). To date, none of my cells have fallen enough out of balance to hit 4.2V while the entire battery pack voltage is within the charger's profile. However, I do plan on wiring that up someday for peace of mind. I went with simple BMS modules rather than a complete system due to cost. There are very sophisticated BMS systems, but their entry price is kind of steep, especially because I only have 16 cells. My modules cost about $15 a piece, so my whole BMS cost was only $240. Your system would have close to 50 cells, so a more complex system might be justified. And then there is an ongoing debate with the EV guys about whether BMS are needed or even desirable, but the BMS concept makes sense to me <br> <br> Each 12V unit is linked in series just like regular batteries with 2/0 cable with lugs and covers. Using 160Ah cells, the assembled units weigh 50 lbs each, so they're fairly easy to handle. In this picure, the batteries are not strapped down yet and they don't have the clear safety cover over the tops of the 12V assemblies that I made to prevent accidental contact/shorts.<br> <br> My charger sees the entire pack as 50V (give or take) and manages it as a whole. So right now, my batteries are wired just like your L/A batteries. Prismatic LiFePO4 cells are readily available in a variety of sizes, so unless you need more than 200Ah (at 150V, that's 30kWh!) you won't need to do any parallel connections. I believe that the LiFePO4 manufacturers make cells up to 400Ah, they're just not as common.<br> <br> I bought some of my gear (charger, instruments, etc.) from EVolve Electrics in Colorado. <br> <a href="http://www.evolveelectrics.com/">http://www.evolveelectrics.com/</a> <br> They have lots of stuff for this type of project, including LiFePO4 cells and BMS, and as a customer, they were great to deal with. I would also recommend checking with Current EV Tech in Washington.<br> <a href="http://currentevtech.com/cart.html">http://currentevtech.com/cart.html</a> <br> I have a lot of respect for Dave, the owner, even though I've never met him in person. He also seems to have good prices on the same sort of gear.<br> <br> Feel free to contact me directly if you have more specific questions about your project.<br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> Marina del Rey, CA<br> <br> PS. as long as I'm recommending suppliers, check out <a href="http://genuinedealz.com/">http://genuinedealz.com/</a><br> for your cabling needs. With free shipping, I haven't found anyone that comes close to their prices.<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Eric,<br> > I'm just getting started at looking ahead to switching my 144v AGM's to LiPo batteries. I've searched most of the EV sites as well as the Net for info on wiring the pack to no avail. The Cruisers and Sailors site had a nice guy who gave the wiring diagrams for a House bank but didn't know anything about a Propulsion bank. Is it possible that you could draw up the best way to wire the pack up? I'm assuming it involves a Parallel and Series setup. I'm going to ask the same at the EV site as well.<br> > I'm also going to get in touch with a company in Thailand (HETER) that is producing packs. I may just get involved with a distributorship if I can get them at a resalable price in quantities. I like their drop in packs. I'll get a few to send out to individuals to test then go from there. I've got a few more questions on batteries in general I'll put in a separate post. <a href="http://www.heterbattery.com/">http://www.heterbattery.com/</a><br> > <br> > Thanks, <br> > <br> > Steve in Solomons MD<br> > Lagoon 410 SE<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Switching%20to%20Lithium%2E" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Switching%20to%20Lithium%2E"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxajQxMGw4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDEyMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20751">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbmU1Y2gwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDEyMw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Zm1ycnV1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDEyMwR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">10</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYjFxMjB2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2MTQxMjM-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTZtYWZmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYxNDEyMw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNDNxNzRxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjE0MTIz" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a> <div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:electricboats-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:electricboats-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:electricboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id="ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5214382/grpspId=1705884090/msgId=20751/stime=1327614123/nc1=4025373/nc2=4767086/nc3=3848614" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> <div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-8957437551375625703?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-63781429289326029972012-01-26T12:17:00.001-08:002012-01-26T12:17:21.372-08:00[Electric Boats] Choosing a battery type<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Hi Martin,<br> <br> I've posted this info to this group before, but here it is again. Please note, Li-Po and LiFePO4 are two types of Lithium batteries. Li-Po batteries are typically more expensive but they have a higher tolerance for extremely high discharge rates. LiFePO4 batteries are available in large formats, are cheaper and are well suited for traction applications in boats. EVs see much higher discharge rates, so the additional expense of Li-Po cells are sometimes justified. Other than that, Li-Po and LiFePO4 seem to be fairly close on energy density and lifespan. <br> <br> ===================================<br> Choosing a battery type for your electric boat conversion can be difficult. Here's some general information that is generally accepted on this board. The product specs from battery vendors don't tell the whole story.<br> <br> FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries are typically run to about a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). Some people go deeper, but many consider this depth to be a good compromise between energy delivered and maintaining a long life, measured in charge cycles.<br> <br> AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries can be discharged to the 70-80% range. I generally consider a 70% discharge for AGM systems. Both FLA and AGM weigh about the same for the same rated capacity.<br> <br> Lithium Batteries (LiFePO4) can be discharged even deeper, for range estimates I use 80% DoD to keep a small safety reserve. LiFePO4 batteries are about 50% the weight of lead/acid batteries for the same rated capacity.<br> <br> Then there is a trait called the Peukert Effect, this describes a battery's decreased ability to deliver energy at higher amp loads. I won't go into the math here, but that loss is predictable through Peukert's equations. Brace yourselves; it's going to get technical for a while.<br> <br> In fact, the concept was known for many years before Peukert was able to quantify the relationship between the load and capacity lost. Here's a link to a page that explains the Peukert Effect is greater detail:<br> <br> <a href="http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html">http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/peukert2.html</a> <br> <br> The content can be a little difficult to work through, but it is correct. There are additional pages that provide validation of their version of the formula, where the results can be verified against the published specs of almost any battery. If you don't want to work through all of the math in the middle of the page, the second to the last paragraph refers to how different battery types have different Peukert's Exponenets and what that can mean.<br> <br> If you can accept that different batteries can have different Peukert Exponents depending on how they are made, then the following link shows graphically how a different Peukert Exponent affects the available capacity of different batteries. Look about halfway down the page, in the section labeled "The Peukert Effect":<br> <br> <a href="http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/">http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/</a> <br> <br> Finally, while few manufacturers publish their specific Peukert Exponents, some do and some other numbers have been published for common batteries. Peukert Exponents are typically calculated through empirically measured capacity at different loads. Here are a few examples (values closer to 1.0 are better):<br> <br> Trojan T-105 = 1.25<br> US Battery 2200 = 1.20<br> Optima 750S = 1.109<br> Thundersky LiFePO4 = 1.03<br> <br> So what does this mean in the real world? Let's pick battery bank size of 10kWh and a constant load of 2500W (52A @ 48V). That will drive most of our boats to somewhere between 4 and 5kts, your results will vary.<br> <br> The simple math would indicate that there are 4 hours of charge in the bank to 100% DoD, So FLA batteries like T-105s would have 60% of 4 hours or 2.4 hours of usable range. Likewise AGM would be 2.8 hours and Lithium would have 3.2 hours of usable range. But this is where Peukert's effect raises its ugly head.<br> <br> FLA with PE of 1.25 – 10kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 1.60 hours (that's a loss of 33% to Peukert's Effect)<br> AGM with PE of 1.1 – 10kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.38 hours (15% lost to Peukert's Effect)<br> LiFePO4 with PE 0f 1.03 – 10kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 3.05 hours (less than 5% loss)<br> <br> You can see that AGM have almost 50% more usable range than T-105s for this size battery bank at this load. Reducing the load (slowing down) reduces the effect and speeding up makes it worse. Even though quality AGM are about twice the cost of T-105s, the extra usable range makes them a very good alternative. Add in the much lower self discharge rate so that constant maintenance charging is not required and they look even better. People also recognize that AGMs seem to last longer in the real world and now the AGMs are cheaper in the long run.<br> <br> If weight is a concern, then LiFePO4 is the way to go. The high price per Ah can be intimidating, but you can reduce the Ah and achieve the same range, saving money and even more weight. Let's do the math for a battery pack that has a 2.5 hour range at 2500W.<br> <br> FLA – 14.25kWh to 60% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 633 lbs, cost about $1500<br> AGM – 10.5kWh to 70% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 520 lbs, cost about $2500<br> LiFePO4 – 8.25kWh to 80% DoD at 2500W = 2.5 hours = 200 lbs, cost about $3500<br> <br> So now the lithiums are only 2.3 times the cost of T-105s but they are less than 1/3 the weight for the same range at this load.<br> So for most boaters, I recommend AGMs as a good balance of price to range.<br> ======================================== <br> <br> So the bottom line is; it's your money, your boat and you know how you use it. You get to figure out your priorities and pick the storage system that best fits your particular needs and constraints.<br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> 1964 Bermuda 30 ketch, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8 kWh Lithium batteries<br> Marina del Rey, CA<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, martin demers <mdemers2005@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi all,<br> > <br> > I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats<br> > This concept is new to me for boat application<br> > Does it give much much more running time?<br> > <br> > Thanks,Martin<br> > <br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Choosing%20a%20battery%20type" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Choosing%20a%20battery%20type"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZXZzcnRtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYwOTAzNA--?act=reply&messageNum=20750">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlajd1dXViBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYwOTAzNA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2aDBhYzYwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzUwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYwOTAzNAR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">9</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYTQ0c2RsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc2MDkwMzQ-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbGVxNm5uBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzYwOTAzNA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdDJsMWYxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NjA5MDM0" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I've searched most of the EV sites as well as the Net for info on wiring the pack to no avail. The Cruisers and Sailors site had a nice guy who gave the wiring diagrams for a House bank but didn't know anything about a Propulsion bank. Is it possible that you could draw up the best way to wire the pack up? I'm assuming it involves a Parallel and Series setup. I'm going to ask the same at the EV site as well.<br> I'm also going to get in touch with a company in Thailand (HETER) that is producing packs. I may just get involved with a distributorship if I can get them at a resalable price in quantities. I like their drop in packs. I'll get a few to send out to individuals to test then go from there. I've got a few more questions on batteries in general I'll put in a separate post. <a href="http://www.heterbattery.com/">http://www.heterbattery.com/</a><br> <br> Thanks, <br> <br> Steve in Solomons MD<br> Lagoon 410 SE<br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:SDolan@scannersllc.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbmxsaTQ5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU3Njg1OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20747">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNmU4NG5rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU3Njg1OQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2bGs5M2YzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU3Njg1OQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">6</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcXN2bGtkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1NzY4NTk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjJtYmJrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU3Njg1OQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZG1xaHF1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTc2ODU5" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I've searched most of the EV sites as well as the Net for info on wiring the pack to no avail. The Cruisers and Sailors site had a nice guy who gave the wiring diagrams for a House bank but didn't know anything about a Propulsion bank. Is it possible that you could draw up the best way to wire the pack up? I'm assuming it involves a Parallel and Series setup. I'm going to ask the same at the EV site as well.<br> I'm also going to get in touch with a company in Thailand (HETER) that is producing packs. I may just get involved with a distributorship if I can get them at a resalable price in quantities. I like their drop in packs. I'll get a few to send out to individuals to test then go from there. I've got a few more questions on batteries in general I'll put in a separate post. <a href="http://www.heterbattery.com/" target="_blank">http://www.heterbattery.com/</a><br> <br> Thanks, <br> <br> Steve in Solomons MD<br> Lagoon 410 SE<br> <br> </div> <div style="color:#fff;height:0;"></div> </div> </div></div><BR> </div> <div style="color:#fff;height:0;"></div> </div> </div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:mdemers2005@hotmail.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbGJpZTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU5Mjg0MQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20749">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldTIwcDZmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU5Mjg0MQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2dGE4cTR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU5Mjg0MQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">8</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMm45a3BuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1OTI4NDE-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJldTR1ZTFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU5Mjg0MQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOXZvN25hBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTkyODQx" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I have A38 ft X 12 ft <br> River Queen house boat, steel hull around 14,000<br> lbs. lookin` to electrify it. I tried emailing <br> elco and a few others and they didn`t seem to want<br> help. I do have a basic Idea what has to be done, <br> does anyone know of a co. that helps<br> the little guy?? David<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:dchial@hotmail.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20House%20boat%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdDdkYzAzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA0Ng--?act=reply&messageNum=20764">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldXEyZWRmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA0Ng--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20764;_ylc=X3oDMTM2NmsyczNtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzY0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA0NgR0cGNJZAMyMDc2NA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">1</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcjFicDNuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc4NjAwNDY-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJldmpmZHA4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDA0Ng--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZXA4bm4zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3ODYwMDQ2" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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Our new policy covers multiple products and features, reflecting our desire to create one beautifully simple and intuitive experience across Google.</p> <p style="line-height:18px;">We believe this stuff matters, so please take a few minutes to read our updated Privacy Policy and Terms of Service at <a href="http://www.google.com/policies">http://www.google.com/policies</a>. These changes will take effect on March 1, 2012. </p></font> <br> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="5" height="40"> <font size="4" color="#222">One policy, one Google experience</font> <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="200"><img src="https://www.gstatic.com/policies/email/images/intl/en/products.png" width="200" height="113" alt="Easy to work across Google" vspace="16" border="1" style="border:1px solid #ccc;"></td> <td width="40"></td> <td width="200"><img src="https://www.gstatic.com/policies/email/images/intl/en/you.png" width="200" height="113" alt="Tailored for you" vspace="16" border="1" style="border:1px solid #ccc;"></td> <td width="40"></td> <td width="200"><img src="https://www.gstatic.com/policies/email/images/intl/en/share.png" width="200" height="113" alt="Easy to share and collaborate" vspace="16" border="1" style="border:1px solid #ccc;"></td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"><font size="3" color="#222">Easy to work across Google</font> <p style="line-height:18px;">Our new policy reflects a single product experience that does what you need, when you want it to. 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(We figured our users might have a question or twenty-two.)</p></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="5" height="40"> <hr noshade="noshade" size="1"> </td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="5" valign="top"> <font size="3" color="#222">Notice of Change</font> <p style="line-height:18px;">March 1, 2012 is when the new Privacy Policy and Terms will come into effect. If you choose to keep using Google once the change occurs, you will be doing so under the new Privacy Policy and Terms of Service.</p> <p style="line-height:18px;"><font size="1">Please do not reply to this email. Mail sent to this address cannot be answered. Also, never enter your Google Account password after following a link in an email or chat to an untrusted site. Instead, go directly to the site, such as mail.google.com or www.google.com/accounts. Google will never email you to ask for your password or other sensitive information.</font></p> </td></tr></tbody></table> </font> <div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-7152689261169912522?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-36277106415954389312012-01-26T06:44:00.000-08:002012-01-26T06:45:23.183-08:00RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p> <div dir="ltr">Hi all,<br><br>I would like to know what is the advantage with Li -po batteries in boats<br>This concept is new to me for boat application<br>Does it give much much more running time?<br><br>Thanks,Martin<br><br><hr>To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com<br>From: sdolan@scannersllc.com<br>Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 12:31:08 -0500<br>Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Marine Li-Po Batteries 51.8Vdc 100-200 Ah<br><br> <span> </span> <div id="ecxygrp-mlmsg"> <div id="ecxygrp-msg"> <div id="ecxygrp-text"> Eric,<br> I'm just getting started at looking ahead to switching my 144v AGM's to LiPo batteries. I've searched most of the EV sites as well as the Net for info on wiring the pack to no avail. The Cruisers and Sailors site had a nice guy who gave the wiring diagrams for a House bank but didn't know anything about a Propulsion bank. Is it possible that you could draw up the best way to wire the pack up? I'm assuming it involves a Parallel and Series setup. I'm going to ask the same at the EV site as well.<br> I'm also going to get in touch with a company in Thailand (HETER) that is producing packs. I may just get involved with a distributorship if I can get them at a resalable price in quantities. I like their drop in packs. I'll get a few to send out to individuals to test then go from there. I've got a few more questions on batteries in general I'll put in a separate post. <a href="http://www.heterbattery.com/" target="_blank">http://www.heterbattery.com/</a><br> <br> Thanks, <br> <br> Steve in Solomons MD<br> Lagoon 410 SE<br> <BR> </div> <div style="color:#fff;height:0;"></div> </div> </div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:mdemers2005@hotmail.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYzFrZGpvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU4OTExOA--?act=reply&messageNum=20748">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldmR0NWwzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU4OTExOA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Mmp0ZG0zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU4OTExOAR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">7</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNjJwYTVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1ODkxMTg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWJkbDZlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzU4OTExOA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcjNycXVnBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTg5MTE4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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If I don't find a bank with a built in BMS I like I will build my own bank using LiFePo and Mini BMS. I don't mind spending a little extra to get a finished product. But building my own is also not a big deal. </div><div><br></div><div>On that note Anyone using a BMS that connect to NMEA or Cann bus? That has been trouble free? <br><br></div><div><br>On Jan 25, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Bill Heintz <<a href="mailto:bheintz@wans.net">bheintz@wans.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div> <span> </span> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p>James, </p><div><br></div><div>Did you get any info on the PolarDC Lithium-Ion Battery Packs? The type of Lithium-Ion will make a big difference, also charging and monitoring <u>each cell</u> will be very critical.</div><div><br></div><div>Bill<br><div><div apple="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 14px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: auto;text-indent: 0px;"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 14px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: none;"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 14px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: none;"><div><div><p></p></div></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Jan 22, 2012, at 15:07, James Sizemore wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span> </span> <div id="ygrp-text"><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>I know there are a few Polar DC generator resellers on this list. Has anyone got any detail or pricing on there new Lithium battery packs? I would not mind getting a quote for a 48 volt 400 amp hour pack. I gather from the site they want to sell this a a complete system, if so the 8 kw or 14 kw generators are the ones I would have the most interest in. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;color: rgb(68, 68, 68);font-family: verdana;font-size: 13px;"></span></div><a href="http://www.polardcmarine.com/cms/">http://www.po lardcmarine.com/cms/</a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> </div> </div> <!-- end group email --> </blockquote></div><br></div></div><p></p> </div> <!-- end group email --> </div></blockquote></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:james@deny.org?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Polar%20dc%20vendors%3F" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Polar%20dc%20vendors%3F"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdTdmY3ZwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzNDY2NQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20746">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamMyMGg2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzNDY2NQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ajg5OTdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzNDY2NQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">5</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcG04MWd1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1MzQ2NjU-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJldnRjYWFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzNDY2NQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNThxMXFoBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTM0NjY1" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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Most of this was standard Lithium battery info, for example, my 51.2V (nominal) LiFePO4 battery block is made of 16 individual 3.2V cells. It looks like their cells are 3.7V (hopefully nominally rated). <br> <br> There are other fully active BMS systems out there in the DIY EV market, though none are pre-installed with by the battery suppliers, they are usually provided by independent vendors.<br> <br> It looks like their certification relies on the following "ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and installation of the complete system including battery, total battery management and safety features." That basically precludes their use by private owner/installers, it sounds like they are looking at the commercial application/boat builder market.<br> <br> They say that they've gotten the weight down to 165 lbs, though they didn't specify which size (100Ah or 200Ah) batteries that they were referring to. For comparison, my 51.2V 160Ah battery bank weighs 200 pounds with my passive BMS modules installed. Other than the Lloyd's certification and limited warranty, the rest of the summary at the end of the post applies to my batteries as well.<br> <br> I am impressed that they are offering a 10 year limited warranty, I wonder how that is worded. I guess that because their batteries are sourced and installed exclusively by their own employees, they can take the chance on extending the warranty that far. And to justify the higher cost (compared to conventional batteries), that kind warranty would be necessary to limit the potential losses to a commercial customer and encourage then to be early adopters.<br> <br> I'll be interested to see if they try to make any inroads into the private yacht market over the next 5 years. I would guess that they would probably be looking at the mega-yacht (100'+) market for the supersized house battery systems rather than smaller traction banks like we use. <br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> Marina del Rey, CA<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, Bill Heintz <bheintz@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Perhaps af interest: from LinkedIn Green Yachts Design & Tech Group<br> ><br> > Marine Lithium-Polymer Batteries Developed by ESTechnologies BV - <br> > Netherlands<br> > Monday, January 23, 2012<br> > <br> > <br> > ESTechnologies has designed the first Lithium-Polymer battery with <br> > Lloyds Certificate in the world. This battery is specially designed <br> > and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems <br> > in the most harsh environment.<br> > Energy storage<br> > With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost <br> > effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution <br> > to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which <br> > normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized <br> > power management.<br> > This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the <br> > special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical <br> > composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which <br> > guarantees long lifetime and little wear.<br> > Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with <br> > extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).<br> > The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible <br> > to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over <br> > 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.<br> > With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power <br> > battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been <br> > developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.<br> > The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead <br> > of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the <br> > already high reliability of the battery systems.<br> > Battery Management System<br> > To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies <br> > has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly <br> > active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market <br> > today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It <br> > can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even <br> > between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This <br> > is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to <br> > ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy <br> > storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the <br> > battery module itself.<br> > The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers <br> > like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for <br> > durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced <br> > amount of parts.<br> > Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is <br> > needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active <br> > balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an <br> > imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from <br> > the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are <br> > always 100% balanced.<br> > The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series, <br> > the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series <br> > in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and <br> > installation of the complete system including battery, total battery <br> > management and safety features.<br> > Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and <br> > is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and <br> > connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.<br> > Further Development<br> > ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a <br> > very important step forward. They have found positive improvements <br> > regarding the weight of the batteries.<br> > ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries <br> > with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is <br> > lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside.<br> > Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:<br> > • Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections<br> > • Certified for high DC voltage systems<br> > • Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%<br> > • Configurable for Mega-Watt applications<br> > • Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size<br> > • Designed for large energy storage systems<br> > • Maintenance free<br> > • Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)<br> > • 10 years limited warranty<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Marine%20Li-Po%20Batteries%20%2051%2E8Vdc%20100-200%20Ah"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZ2s5aGdwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzMDg4OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20745">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbTliazBmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzMDg4OQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Njlicm9pBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQ1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzMDg4OQR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">4</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbmF0ZGFwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1MzA4ODk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJldHRvZTRhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUzMDg4OQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOWRrZXZrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTMwODg5" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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There is a lot of info and good people here that love to discuss EP but more info will be needed from you.<br> <br> Make and assume it's a Sailing cat?<br> You got sail drives or straight shaft?<br> What are you planning to do with the boat, what kind of sailing?<br> What are your expectations?<br> What is your hull speed now?<br> A budget # might be interesting. Several ways to approach the conversion as well as systems out there.<br> <br> I'm sure there are a dozen other questions but that might get us started.<br> Most of these guys are running small design stuff but love to talk about anything EP so some history will be great.<br> <br> Steve in Solomons MD<br> Lagoon 410 SE<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:SDolan@scannersllc.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNTUwZm85BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUwMjgzMA--?act=reply&messageNum=20742">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDJhNWFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUwMjgzMA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/8997;_ylc=X3oDMTM1bzNmZ25iBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUwMjgzMAR0cGNJZAM4OTk3">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">20</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYTVjb2htBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1MDI4MzA-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjY2ODJiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUwMjgzMA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMjdhdmloBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTAyODMw" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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This battery is specially designed and certified for Marine applications and large Energy storage systems in the most harsh environment. </p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; "><em><strong>Energy storage</strong></em><br>With a Lithium Polymer Battery you can create energy storage in a cost effective manner, reducing fuel and therefore making a contribution to a better environment. Reduction of CO2 emissions, and energy which normally gets lost, will now be saved and stored by means of optimized power management.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">This makes the use of energy more efficiently. This is due to the special qualities of the lithium polymer cells. Firstly, the chemical composition of the battery, using non corrosive chemicals which guarantees long lifetime and little wear.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">Secondly, the use of polymer technology allows to make batteries with extremely high efficiency and low impedance(lowest on the market).</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">The polymer technology and the chemical composition makes it possible to realize an extremely high number of charge / discharge cycles, over 5000 cycles, with a long lifetime.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">With these cells ESTechnologies produces high voltage and high power battery systems. For this purpose, 51.8 Vdc battery blocks have been developed with a capacity of 100Ah or 200Ah.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">The battery blocks are built with only 14 large single cells instead of (most common), hundreds of small cells. This contributes to the already high reliability of the battery systems.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; "><em><strong>Battery Management System</strong></em><br>To guarantee the extensive lifetime of this battery, ESTechnologies has also designed a unique Battery Management System with constantly active balancing. Unlike any other system available on the market today, this Battery Management System has superb specifications. It can balance energy between cells within one battery unit and even between cells of different battery units connected in one system. This is all achieved with minimal losses. Special care has been taken to ensure safety at all times. High DC voltage is present at large energy storage systems and additional safety measures are built into the battery module itself.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">The batteries communicate with other modules and system controllers like NMEA2000 devices. The 50V battery modules are constructed for durability with just 14 large LiPo cells in series and a reduced amount of parts.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">Each cell has its own chemical process. Therefore a balanced system is needed. EST uses an in-house developed, state of the art, active balancing and monitoring board for each module. If there is an imbalance in the system, a part of the energy will be transported from the highest cell to the lowest cell. Result: The EST modules are always 100% balanced.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">The required voltage is realized by connecting batteries in series, the required power can be obtained by connection these battery series in parallel. ESTechnologies is responsible for the complete supply and installation of the complete system including battery, total battery management and safety features.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">Because of working with a high DC voltage, safety has top priority and is included in the overall design philosophy. The housing and connectors are fully protected and have IP65 rating.</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; "><em><strong>Further Development</strong></em><br>ESTechnologies is still improving their batteries and have now made a very important step forward. They have found positive improvements regarding the weight of the batteries.<br>ESTechnologies has succeeded to reduce the weight of their batteries with 12% from 85 kg to 75 kg. This by using a new cell which is lighter and by improving the mounting frame on the inside. </p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; "><em><strong>Other Specifications of ESTechnologies batteries are:</strong></em></p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; ">• Lloyd's Certified with Lloyd's Certified power connections<br>• Certified for high DC voltage systems<br>• Have a charge and discharge efficiency of more than 95%<br>• Configurable for Mega-Watt applications<br>• Very light weighted and ultra-compact in size<br>• Designed for large energy storage systems<br>• Maintenance free<br>• Environmental friendly (100% recyclable)<br>• 10 years limited warranty</p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; "><br></p><p style="margin-top: 8px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-right: 15px; "><br></p></div></div></div></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-7524864970229466890?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-27891192083617700262012-01-25T10:48:00.001-08:002012-01-25T10:48:23.086-08:00Re: [Electric Boats] Polar dc vendors?<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>James, <div><br></div><div>Did you get any info on the PolarDC Lithium-Ion Battery Packs? The type of Lithium-Ion will make a big difference, also charging and monitoring <u>each cell</u> will be very critical.</div><div><br></div><div>Bill<br><div><div apple="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 14px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: auto;text-indent: 0px;"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 14px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: none;"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-size: 14px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;text-transform: none;"><div><div><p></p></div></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Jan 22, 2012, at 15:07, James Sizemore wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span> </span> <div id="ygrp-text"><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>I know there are a few Polar DC generator resellers on this list. Has anyone got any detail or pricing on there new Lithium battery packs? I would not mind getting a quote for a 48 volt 400 amp hour pack. I gather from the site they want to sell this a a complete system, if so the 8 kw or 14 kw generators are the ones I would have the most interest in. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse;color: rgb(68, 68, 68);font-family: verdana;font-size: 13px;"></span></div><a href="http://www.polardcmarine.com/cms/">http://www.polardcmarine.com/cms/</a><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> </div> </div> <!-- end group email --> </blockquote></div><br></div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:bheintz@wans.net?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Polar%20dc%20vendors%3F" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Polar%20dc%20vendors%3F"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMHQ5ZXE3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUxNzI5NA--?act=reply&messageNum=20743">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjY4aHF0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUxNzI5NA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20717;_ylc=X3oDMTM2OGdwcmNoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzQzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUxNzI5NAR0cGNJZAMyMDcxNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">2</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbnU1Z2V0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc1MTcyOTQ-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTgzZDc5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzUxNzI5NA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOXI2aWY2BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NTE3Mjk0" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a> <div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:electricboats-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:electricboats-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:electricboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id="ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5214382/grpspId=1705884090/msgId=20743/stime=1327517294/nc1=3848627/nc2=4025338/nc3=4430620" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> <div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-2789119208361770026?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-71233973035540324792012-01-25T08:05:00.000-08:002012-01-29T10:00:34.539-08:00Re: [Electric Boats] conversion<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><div style="font-family:'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;font-size:12pt;">steve<div>i have not yet bought it</div><div>part of the decision to buy will depend on the propulsion system that i will install.</div><div>i'm sure there are major differences in converting a gemini with a stern drive, or a renaissance with two inboards</div><div>i have very little idea what the costs entail, but i would also like to upgrade the creature comforts. </div><div>if possible i would like to have no supplemental generator onboard.</div><div>i plan on island hopping in the lesser antillies for about 6 mo each winter<span style="background-color: white;font-size: 12pt;">, and doing little sailing the remainder of the year</span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;font-size: 12pt;">what else can i say to get a better picture of what i am looking at?</span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;font-size: 12pt;">thanx</span></div><div><span style="background-color: white;font-size: 12pt;">bill</span></div><div><div><br></div><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><br><div style="border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Steve Dolan <sdolan@scannersllc.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "electricboats@yahoogroups.com" <electricboats@yahoogroups.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, January 25, 2012 2:57:25 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Electric Boats] conversion<br></font><br> <span> </span> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p><br> Bt,<br> I'm running a twin engine 41' Cat with the Solomons systems. There is a lot of info and good people here that love to discuss EP but more info will be needed from you.<br> <br> Make and assume it's a Sailing cat?<br> You got sail drives or straight shaft?<br> What are you planning to do with the boat, what kind of sailing?<br> What are your expectations?<br> What is your hull speed now?<br> A budget # might be interesting. Several ways to approach the conversion as well as systems out there.<br> <br> I'm sure there are a dozen other questions but that might get us started.<br> Most of these guys are running small design stuff but love to talk about anything EP so some history will be great.<br> <br> Steve in Solomons MD<br> Lagoon 410 SE<br> <br> </p> </div> </div></div><div></div> </div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:onetaylor2@sbcglobal.net?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20conversion" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20conversion"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcHFvaXVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzYzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDAyOQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20763">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNnN2dTJiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDAyOQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/8997;_ylc=X3oDMTM1M2FqYmVvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzYzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDAyOQR0cGNJZAM4OTk3">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">21</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmajFxbmIzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc4NjAwMjk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">14</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZG5nODBtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzg2MDAyOQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkazhxcTI4BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3ODYwMDI5" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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But most sailboats have a LWL that is noticably shorter than the overall length. For example, the C&C 35 or an Ericson 35 has a LWL of 27.5' with a hull speed of 7kt or 8.1mph. A An Ericson 38 and a Catalina 36 have a LWL of 30'.<br> <br> Looking at 30' sailboats, a Pearson 30 and a Catlina 30 have a LWL of 25' with a hull speed of 6.7kts or 7.7mph. An Alberg 30 has a LWL of 21.6' with a hull speed of 6.3kts or 7.2mph. My Cheoy Lee Bermuda 30 ketch has a LWL of 24' with a hull speed of 6.6kts or 7.6mph<br> <br> For this type of boat, the power requirements are more closely related to displacement. Our typical conversion recommendation is 1kW of drive for each ton of displacement. This size drive should get you to 90-95% of hull speed at full throttle. My Bermuda 30 displaces 10,200 lbs, and has a top speed of 6.1kts (92% of hull speed) at 5.1kW. These numbers hold true for auxiliary sailboats because they have pretty similar hull profiles.<br> <br> Boats that are much lighter or have very differnt hull designs (kayaks, multihulls, etc.) have different speed results but for boats over about 3000 lbs, the power requirements stay pretty close.<br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> marina del Rey, CA<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, KEN <rekkamurd@...> wrote:<br> ><br> >  <br> > .... I sure like the potential hull speed of something 30ft, 8.5mph is decent if it'll do it.<br> >  <br> >  <br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > 4b. Re: 30 ft C&C/ Colombia 30<br> > Posted by: "KEN" rekkamurd@... rekkamurd<br> > Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:21 pm ((PST))<br> > <br> > "roll your own".. funny expression no doubt, but pretty much what I had<br> > in mind pointing at the "monsterscooterparts.com" site, I dont know what<br> > kind of power requirements your 30 footers really need, the 24v 900 watt<br> > motors (1.2hp each) if 80% efficient is 1hp each..<br> > they spin about 2500 rpm and belt or chain joining em at whatever<br> > reduction would be simple enough. same for replacement if one takes the<br> > proverbial dump, theyre not spendy.<br> > if theres 3 of em and one comes unglued, still got the power of the<br> > other 2 and can limp it home? not that it'd be a long trip with your 1hr<br> > runtime requirement.<br> > <br> > -- <br> > <a href="http://www.fastmail.fm">http://www.fastmail.fm</a> - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%2030%20ft%20C%26C%2F%20Colombia%2030" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%2030%20ft%20C%26C%2F%20Colombia%2030"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxczhiZXIxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQzMTY0MA--?act=reply&messageNum=20739">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXVzYmhsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQzMTY0MA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20706;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Y2xuZWVlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQzMTY0MAR0cGNJZAMyMDcwNg--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">21</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNGVya2FhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc0MzE2NDA-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMWM0c2kwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQzMTY0MA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaGVmajltBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NDMxNjQw" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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I probably couldda also got away with swinging one of young's 7" prop, the motor ran that cool on 12v.</DIV> <DIV>the boat was a slightly narrowed (and lighter) electric inboard version of svensons-com's "Bebop", which is just a cute kid size runabout toy. it'd do 3.5-4mph about all day long, stereo (with 2 10's and horns) thumping the whole way.. a fishermans nightmare!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd almost be tempted to say use 36v motors fed 24-26v.. it'd maybe sacrifice a little efficiency, maybe not! windings never getting warm can be better than internal resistance and heat robbing it, and the long term reliability only goes up, even if runtime is slightly shortened. spinning slower probably also pulls less amps and build less heat..</DIV> <DIV>honestly.. I'm also thinking the real torque is more a function of the motors magnets,</DIV> <DIV>that scooter motor spun slower but there sure wasnt any lack of torque!</DIV> <DIV>another tidbit about the scooter motor I played with, it wasnt "notchy" and didnt slow down really fast when the shaft spun by hand, so in a triad, if one let go, it'd be more like an idler pulley, not adding a buncha load to the other two.. but idk if they're all like that.</DIV> <DIV>it was brush type, neutral timed, would power forward or reverse same speed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sure like the potential hull speed of something 30ft, 8.5mph is decent if it'll do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 1/24/12, John Green <I><v_2jgree@operamail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;"><BR>From: John Green <v_2jgree@operamail.com><BR>Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: 30 ft C&C/ Colombia 30<BR>To: electricboats@yahoogroups.com<BR>Date: Tuesday, January 24, 2012, 9:47 AM<BR><BR> <DIV id="yiv1034170571"> <DIV><SPAN> </SPAN> <DIV id="yiv1034170571ygrp-text"> <DIV>Hi,<BR>Regarding the use of multiple small motors. That is my plan, but the<BR>idea of running partial power via having some motors non-powered does<BR>have an annoying snag.<BR>Due to the lack of excess power available, the gearing has to be such to<BR>give torque loadings that are slowing the motor group (when all motors<BR>are running) only to a comfortable situation regarding amps and heat. <BR>Taking a single motor of a group out will increase the 'slowing' effect<BR>on the remaining motor(s), probably/possibly taking it/them out of a<BR>useable range as far as amps/heat and continuous duty goes. <BR>The simple resolution though, is to have a second pulley/belt set<BR>available, with corrected ratios. Especially with toothed belts, and<BR>spring loaded tension pulleys that can be hooked back clear, the<BR>changeover would be quick to do. <BR><BR>John<BR><BR>4b. Re: 30 ft C&C/ Colombia 30<BR>Posted by: "KEN" <A href="http://us.mc1618.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rekkamurd%40yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:rekkamurd%40yahoo.com">rekkamurd@yahoo.com</A> rekkamurd<BR>Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:21 pm ((PST))<BR><BR>"roll your own".. funny expression no doubt, but pretty much what I had<BR>in mind pointing at the "monsterscooterparts.com" site, I dont know what<BR>kind of power requirements your 30 footers really need, the 24v 900 watt<BR>motors (1.2hp each) if 80% efficient is 1hp each..<BR>they spin about 2500 rpm and belt or chain joining em at whatever<BR>reduction would be simple enough. same for replacement if one takes the<BR>proverbial dump, theyre not spendy.<BR>if theres 3 of em and one comes unglued, still got the power of the<BR>other 2 and can limp it home? not that it'd be a long trip with your 1hr<BR>runtime requirement.<BR><BR>-- <BR><A href="http://www.fastmail.fm/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.fastmail.fm</A> - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:rekkamurd@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%2030%20ft%20C%26C%2F%20Colombia%2030" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%2030%20ft%20C%26C%2F%20Colombia%2030"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdHRzYjRiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQyMjg3Ng--?act=reply&messageNum=20738">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbDBvc3NwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQyMjg3Ng--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20706;_ylc=X3oDMTM2OHF0YzRnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQyMjg3NgR0cGNJZAMyMDcwNg--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">20</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmc2txYmVwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc0MjI4NzY-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOWp1amFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQyMjg3Ng--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaWhjOGtnBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NDIyODc2" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5214382/grpspId=1705884090/msgId=20738/stime=1327422876/nc1=3848621/nc2=4767086/nc3=4025373" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> <div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-6303470790917114837?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-87468254898417524232012-01-24T07:03:00.000-08:002012-01-24T21:17:41.321-08:00[Electric Boats] Re: My evolving solar panel bimini/dodger designs<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Hello Mike:<br> <br> Here is a link to my single panel solution...<br> <br> <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mUFmR6hgj8RdCn7bJ3pvdWhE8WDNU9sU2b1qSl3XHLU?feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mUFmR6hgj8RdCn7bJ3pvdWhE8WDNU9sU2b1qSl3XHLU?feat=directlink</a><br> <br> There are several more pics in the series if anybody is interested.<br> <br> <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/112515870494292426674/1979Newport30MKIIArch?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNut99Gtt5SbkAE&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/112515870494292426674/1979Newport30MKIIArch?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNut99Gtt5SbkAE&feat=directlink</a><br> <br> Carl<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; 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Above that point, each additional knot is requiring ~ .7KW of power. Below, that, each knot is only requiring about ~.2KW (it's not linear of course). So the trick is in seeing what can be done to push that sweet-spot into the higher speeds. If you could sustain it to 6knots, for example, you'd have a range of about 32 miles (and at a pretty good clip to boot). Hopefully your work on cavitation and drag will prove fruitful!<br> <br> -Keith<br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "davecanoehead" <elderton@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi all, here is some preliminary speed VS. range data on sparky. She is based on a Hobie 16 platform, 5 KW outboard conversion, 5 KW/H lithium batteries. Range assumes 100% discharge.<br> > <br> > 1 knot/90 watts/55 miles<br> > 2 knots/127 watts/78 miles<br> > 3 knots/223 watts/67.2 miles<br> > 4 knots/396 watts/50.5 miles<br> > 5 knots/660 watts/37.87 miles<br> > 6 knots/1440 watts/20.8 miles<br> > 7 knots/2100 watts/16 miles<br> > 8 knots/2900 watts/13.8 miles<br> > 9 knots/3650 watts/12.3 miles<br> > <br> > She still needs more work around the prop and leg to minimize cavitation etc. so we may get slightly better numbers going forward.<br> > <br> > Best,<br> > <br> > Dave E<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Sparky%20hobie%2016%20knots%20vs%20watts" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Sparky%20hobie%2016%20knots%20vs%20watts"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcmNhNzY1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjk5Mw--?act=reply&messageNum=20737">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTNwaTR0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjk5Mw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20670;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZmcwMjFvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjk5MwR0cGNJZAMyMDY3MA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">7</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnEza2p2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc0MTY5OTM-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYzNidGxlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjk5Mw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNXNhZjMyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NDE2OTkz" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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That is my plan, but the<br> idea of running partial power via having some motors non-powered does<br> have an annoying snag.<br> Due to the lack of excess power available, the gearing has to be such to<br> give torque loadings that are slowing the motor group (when all motors<br> are running) only to a comfortable situation regarding amps and heat. <br> Taking a single motor of a group out will increase the 'slowing' effect<br> on the remaining motor(s), probably/possibly taking it/them out of a<br> useable range as far as amps/heat and continuous duty goes. <br> The simple resolution though, is to have a second pulley/belt set<br> available, with corrected ratios. Especially with toothed belts, and<br> spring loaded tension pulleys that can be hooked back clear, the<br> changeover would be quick to do. <br> <br> John<br> <br> 4b. Re: 30 ft C&C/ Colombia 30<br> Posted by: "KEN" <a href="mailto:rekkamurd%40yahoo.com">rekkamurd@yahoo.com</a> rekkamurd<br> Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:21 pm ((PST))<br> <br> "roll your own".. funny expression no doubt, but pretty much what I had<br> in mind pointing at the "monsterscooterparts.com" site, I dont know what<br> kind of power requirements your 30 footers really need, the 24v 900 watt<br> motors (1.2hp each) if 80% efficient is 1hp each..<br> they spin about 2500 rpm and belt or chain joining em at whatever<br> reduction would be simple enough. same for replacement if one takes the<br> proverbial dump, theyre not spendy.<br> if theres 3 of em and one comes unglued, still got the power of the<br> other 2 and can limp it home? not that it'd be a long trip with your 1hr<br> runtime requirement.<br> <br> -- <br> <a href="http://www.fastmail.fm">http://www.fastmail.fm</a> - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:v_2jgree@operamail.com?subject=Re%3A%2030%20ft%20C%26C%2F%20Colombia%2030" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%2030%20ft%20C%26C%2F%20Colombia%2030"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcnQ1Z3BoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjQ3OA--?act=reply&messageNum=20736">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2RubDZiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjQ3OA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20706;_ylc=X3oDMTM2YTR2bmFiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjQ3OAR0cGNJZAMyMDcwNg--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">19</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbWxxNmVjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc0MTY0Nzg-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDJrMDhwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxNjQ3OA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc3VkNG9lBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NDE2NDc4" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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EPIC is another all-electric wakeboat manufacturer, see posts 19861 and 19866. <br> > <br> > From what I understand, all of Electric Yacht's, and Propulsion Marine's current offerings use brushless motors. Motenergy (the new name for Mars Electric) builds the ME907 and ME913 PMAC motors used by these vendors, they are also included in the current sailboat kits from Thunderstruck. Advanced Marine Electric Propulsion also uses brushless motors. The Propulsion Marine drive that I bought in Jan 2010 came with a brushless motor. <br> > <br> > So I would answer your first question with "about 2 years ago". <br> > <br> > The Sevcon Gen4 controller is proving to be more efficient than the Millipack controller and is very well suited for a marine environment. I don't think that the Gen4 will work with a brushed motor.<br> > <br> > Fair winds,<br> > Eric<br> > 1964 Bermuda 30 ketch, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8kWh Lithium batteries<br> > Marina del Rey, CA <br> > <br> > --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "DRHitch" <drhitch@> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > Nautique just announced their 2nd venture into all-electric boats. The wakeboard boat will be unveiled at the Detroit Boat show (mid-February; I may attend)<br> > > <br> > > Interestingly, the motor/control system is a joint venture between Nautique and a Canadian company LTS Marine, who, in turn, procure the motors from TM4 (<a href="http://www.tm4.com/en/electric_powertrain.aspx">http://www.tm4.com/en/electric_powertrain.aspx</a>).<br> > > <br> > > TM4 has a brushless motor and controller that they have leveraged from their work in the automotive space.<br> > > <br> > > So.....how long will it be that electric boats will drop brushed motors (ala Mars) for brushless technology? is the consensus that SevCon controllers are pretty good for marine applications?<br> > ><br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:todd@rumblecity.com?subject=Re%3A%20Nautique%20all-electric%20wakeboard%20boat" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Nautique%20all-electric%20wakeboard%20boat"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOWpyNG9rBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxMTI0MQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20735">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNpZHEzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxMTI0MQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20728;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MTZhdmJ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxMTI0MQR0cGNJZAMyMDcyOA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">3</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMWo4dTgxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc0MTEyNDE-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">17</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlanFpaWhjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQxMTI0MQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJka2c0NXYxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NDExMjQx" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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My attempts were over several years. Now that I think I've got the mounting that works best for my boat. I will start to look at more closely how much power comes from the panels. I still need to get my Paktrakr data recorder setup which will make this easier. Hopefully, in the next few weeks if the weather cooperates.</SPAN></div> <div><SPAN></SPAN> </div> <div><SPAN>Capt. Mike</SPAN></div> <div><SPAN><A href="http://biankablog.blogspot.com">http://biankablog.blogspot.com</A></SPAN></div> <div><SPAN><VAR id="yui-ie-cursor"></VAR></SPAN> </div> <div><BR></div> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif;FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"> <DIV dir="ltr"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"> <DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid;HEIGHT: 0px;FONT-SIZE: 0px;BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid;" class="hr" contentEditable="false" readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">From:</SPAN></B> aweekdaysailor <aweekdaysailor@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">To:</SPAN></B> electricboats@yahoogroups.com <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 23, 2012 6:50 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Electric Boats] Re: My evolving solar panel bimini/dodger designs<BR></FONT></DIV><BR> <DIV id="yiv516879853"> <DIV><SPAN> </SPAN> <DIV id="yiv516879853ygrp-text"> <div>Thanks Cap'n - the effort you put into your posts is very much appreciated and I got a lot of good ideas just looking at your clever mechanical designs (a skill I decidedly lack!) <BR><BR>Very interested in hearing about the actual watts you're getting (which I know will be highly variable)<BR><BR>-Keith<BR><BR></div></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:biankablog@verizon.net?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20My%20evolving%20solar%20panel%20bimini%2Fdodger%20designs" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BElectric%20Boats%5D%20Re%3A%20My%20evolving%20solar%20panel%20bimini%2Fdodger%20designs"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMW9xbzMwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQwMzA1NQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20734">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOXZnOWJnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQwMzA1NQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20727;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MmJoMnA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzM0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQwMzA1NQR0cGNJZAMyMDcyNw--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">4</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYXZmMnVnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc0MDMwNTU-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">16</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZDBkNG1qBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzQwMzA1NQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYm5tMWlvBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3NDAzMDU1" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5214382/grpspId=1705884090/msgId=20734/stime=1327403055/nc1=3848621/nc2=4430620/nc3=4025304" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> <div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5271939944222260291-8854763131279073596?l=tpainisonaboat.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Stevohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15384841517565159074noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5271939944222260291.post-81856636906804343052012-01-23T18:45:00.001-08:002012-01-23T18:45:53.955-08:00[Electric Boats] Re: My evolving solar panel bimini/dodger designs<span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"><div>very interested in pictures plans</div><div>capt Bob</div><div>Shockwave</div><div>30 ft Colombia</div></div></p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; 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EPIC is another all-electric wakeboat manufacturer, see posts 19861 and 19866. <br> <br> From what I understand, all of Electric Yacht's, and Propulsion Marine's current offerings use brushless motors. Motenergy (the new name for Mars Electric) builds the ME907 and ME913 PMAC motors used by these vendors, they are also included in the current sailboat kits from Thunderstruck. Advanced Marine Electric Propulsion also uses brushless motors. The Propulsion Marine drive that I bought in Jan 2010 came with a brushless motor. <br> <br> So I would answer your first question with "about 2 years ago". <br> <br> The Sevcon Gen4 controller is proving to be more efficient than the Millipack controller and is very well suited for a marine environment. I don't think that the Gen4 will work with a brushed motor.<br> <br> Fair winds,<br> Eric<br> 1964 Bermuda 30 ketch, 5.5kW Propulsion Marine drive, 8kWh Lithium batteries<br> Marina del Rey, CA <br> <br> --- In <a href="mailto:electricboats%40yahoogroups.com">electricboats@yahoogroups.com</a>, "DRHitch" <drhitch@...> wrote:<br> ><br> > Nautique just announced their 2nd venture into all-electric boats. The wakeboard boat will be unveiled at the Detroit Boat show (mid-February; I may attend)<br> > <br> > Interestingly, the motor/control system is a joint venture between Nautique and a Canadian company LTS Marine, who, in turn, procure the motors from TM4 (<a href="http://www.tm4.com/en/electric_powertrain.aspx">http://www.tm4.com/en/electric_powertrain.aspx</a>).<br> > <br> > TM4 has a brushless motor and controller that they have leveraged from their work in the automotive space.<br> > <br> > So.....how long will it be that electric boats will drop brushed motors (ala Mars) for brushless technology? is the consensus that SevCon controllers are pretty good for marine applications?<br> ><br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:ewdysar@yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20Nautique%20all-electric%20wakeboard%20boat" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:electricboats@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Nautique%20all-electric%20wakeboard%20boat"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdGRpbXEzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzMwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzM3MDE3Mg--?act=reply&messageNum=20730">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDk2dm5yBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzM3MDE3Mg--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/message/20728;_ylc=X3oDMTM2NThhbTVtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBG1zZ0lkAzIwNzMwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzM3MDE3MgR0cGNJZAMyMDcyOA--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">2</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzJobWU2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjczNzAxNzI-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">15</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2wyb3RzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzM3MDE3Mg--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZGF0aHEwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzUyMTQzODIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODg0MDkwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3MzcwMTcy" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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